WOTC announcement today?

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huds0n
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WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Arduin »

I predicted this crash at WotC shortly after 4.x came out. I was in close communication with ~50 players. Only a few adopted 4.x as opposed to what happened with earlier editions. Official D&D is toast. Games like C&C will continue to gain traction...
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Omote »

Crazy... sounds like the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons is going to be a lot like Castles & Crusades. I'll stick by C&C as it is already Dungeons and Dragons for me.

~O
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Arduin »

Omote wrote:Crazy... sounds like the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons is going to be a lot like Castles & Crusades. I'll stick by C&C as it is already Dungeons and Dragons for me.

~O
Here's a quote from a reporter that played it. "Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes."

If true, it will be NOTHING like "D&D" or C&C. And thus, won't solve the problem that 4th created... These problems stemmed from it being designed as an mmorpg rather than a P&P rpg.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... ns-Dragons
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Pilgrim »

Well, personally, they can keep their new iteration/ edition. If anyone in my group buys into it and wants to try/run it, I'll play, but there's a 99% chance I won't even bother with it otherwise.

I'm so sick of the revolving door of editions when it comes to that particular "brand name" of RPG.

We played our first game of C&C this past Saturday and it was a lot of fun. We had some minor issues crop up here and there, but mainly it was semantics and nothing really to do with the rules themselves. Everyone was quite happy and we're looking to do another session in about three weeks (mainly due to the fact that 2 of the players live out of town).

Having the options of C&C along with all of my previous AD&D material, I really can't see any reason for looking to WotC for providing me anything I'd want. The only other "D&D"-like game that I have a vested interest in is the new DCC RPG, and between these two, I have all my bases covered.

WotC would have to really pull of something brilliant and amazing for me to want to look or throw any money their way.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Intersting article in the NYT. Here are a couple of observations (10 actually), I leave these as questions for you all.

1. Why is arguably what is known as America's paper of record, now doing an article about Dungeons & Dragons? Perhaps some can enlighten me, but there was no story that I recall when D&D made the shift from 2E to 3E or from 3E to 3.5E, nor was there one from 3.XE to 4E - or even with the shift to essentials.

2. I wonder why the NYT choose to interview those they did. Let me list them for you:

a. Ryan Scott Dancey, chief executive of the game company Goblinworks and a former vice president at Wizards of the Coast.
b. Tavis Allison, a game designer in New York who has made his own role-playing game, Adventurer Conqueror King
c. David M. Ewalt, a senior editor at Forbes and the author of a forthcoming history of Dungeons & Dragons.
d. James W. Ward, a game designer and former vice president of TSR Inc., the company that originally published D&D.
e. Greg Tito, games editor for The Escapist, an online games culture magazine.
f. Liz Schuh, who directs publishing and licensing for Dungeons & Dragons.
g. Mike Mearls, senior manager of Dungeons & Dragons research and development

3. Do you agree with Mr. Dancey, that the overall market in RPGs has declined since 2005 and is slower than ever?

4. What do you think of Mr. Ewalt analogy that appears to contrast D&D 5e with other Editions. Analology as follows: “Imagine trying to organize a basketball team, if the point guard adheres to modern league rules, but the center only knows how to play ancient Mayan handball.”

5. Do you agree that devotion to particular rules can be fanatical. Have you ever had problems or any kind of Hostilities break out about how to best play the game.

6. How a sorcerer casts spells — is this a bone of contention that you have seen among edition wars or had problems with at your own table?

7. Was D&D the only game in town in the 1970s?

8. The author says that D&D Sales are declining and cites Internal Forces (specifically edition wars) and External Forces (specifcally electronic games) as the reason. What say you are these acurate?

9. How do you all feel about D&D 5e's expected "long, open, testing period"?

10. What do you think about the author's closing statement, "Even if players increasingly bring their iPads, loaded with Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks, to the gaming table." In light of the fact that WOTC no longer sells digital versions of their rulebooks, citing piracy concerns?

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Sir Ironside »

The worst kept secret about Monte Cook coming back into the fold.

Not surprised by the announcement of 5th edition now as the recent D&D iterations have about a 5 year life cycle.

Though I love the C&C rules/game, I'll admit I do have some curiosity about 5th edition.

Will they abandon the miniatures part, or reduce their importance in the game?

Will the vanican rules for magic finally go away?

In any event it'll be interesting to see just what the D&D 5th edition will bring, to the table.

Edit:

Question 3: Yes. I can no longer find rpg books at the big book companies/stores.

Question 5: Yes when people want to play RAW rules only and want to find loop-holes. (min/maxers.)

Question 7: No.

Question 8: Yes and you can include Pathfinder. I do believe Pathfinder is out-selling D&D.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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I'm not gonna answer all ten, because I have the attention span of a gnat, but let me address #1.

D&D has become something bigger than it has ever been among society at large. For us geeks, its been big since the 1980s (1970s for some of you older folks), but the mainstream saw it as either an extremely nerdy game played by socially awkward misfits or a way to summon the devil. But since so many people that played at age 13 are now in their 40s, the stigma is being slowly removed. I don't think its 5thEd that makes the story, its just timing.

Also, the article was written by Ethan Gilsdorf, author of Fantasy Freaks and Gaming Geeks. Ethan worked out of the TLG booth at GenCon a few years back and I got to know him somewhat. Great guy (he bought me a hot dog and a Coke at GC, which runs about $75, so I'm cool with him).

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by gideon_thorne »

C&C playtesters get your popcorn and a comfy chair. Cause we all remember how much fun it is to invite an open development crew that spans various D&D editions... :lol:
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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gideon_thorne wrote:C&C playtesters get your popcorn and a comfy chair. Cause we all remember how much fun it is to invite an open development crew that spans various D&D editions... :lol:

Well, the link is on their site, for members. So, it'll mostly consist of 4.x players. Most other D&D players will never hear about the playtest...
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:C&C playtesters get your popcorn and a comfy chair. Cause we all remember how much fun it is to invite an open development crew that spans various D&D editions... :lol:

Well, the link is on their site, for members. So, it'll mostly consist of 4.x players. Most other D&D players will never hear about the playtest...
You really think that this announcement didn't hit all the sites devoted to the classic D&D editions by now? Devoted fans of various editions will be mobbing the Wizards forums. :)
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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gideon_thorne wrote:You really think that this announcement didn't hit all the sites devoted to the classic D&D editions by now? Devoted fans of various editions will be mobbing the Wizards forums. :)
MOST players don't frequent forums. And, most that do are not going to rush over and sign up at WotC....
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:You really think that this announcement didn't hit all the sites devoted to the classic D&D editions by now? Devoted fans of various editions will be mobbing the Wizards forums. :)
MOST players don't frequent forums. And, most that do are not going to rush over and sign up at WotC....
True. and let me be clear, I have no idea how D&D Essentials work, (I hope that is what it is called. Their online supplement, so to speak.) Isn't there a way to make a announcement on there? If so it'll reach a much larger audience.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Sir Ironside wrote: True. and let me be clear, I have no idea how D&D Essentials work, (I hope that is what it is called. Their online supplement, so to speak.) Isn't there a way to make a announcement on there? If so it'll reach a much larger audience.
Not sure but, you'd just be reaching 4.x players.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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It's hard to draw conclusions from the articles. One question I ask myself, though...

Let's say my voice was important, and I could help shape the latest, greatest official D&D game. Would I bother?

Kind of leaning towards not. Like the articles mention, I've since found replacements that I like fine. One of the reasons I switched to C&C is it looked a lot like what my own mental exercises in a D&D refactor would look like. I'd rather support the refinement of that, I think. TLG can't say it, but I can... to me, C&C is every bit as much D&D as anything WotC can produce (and no, lawyers, I am not confused about branding...)

This is an excellent opportunity to kick C&C up a notch, too, not with more stuff, but by making the edition or printing as clean, consistent, and well-edited as possible. Get that errata in there, make sure NPC names match between modules, figure out how you want to tell the story of the people, places, and gods of Aihrde. Not for me, I already have the books and know my way around them, but for the new players that will bring in the money to see future greatness from C&C. It's going to come up in forum posts, articles, and play test discussion, so why not make it hospitable for those who make their way here.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote:
Omote wrote:Crazy... sounds like the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons is going to be a lot like Castles & Crusades. I'll stick by C&C as it is already Dungeons and Dragons for me.

~O
Here's a quote from a reporter that played it. "Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes."

If true, it will be NOTHING like "D&D" or C&C. And thus, won't solve the problem that 4th created... These problems stemmed from it being designed as an mmorpg rather than a P&P rpg.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... ns-Dragons
That "in other words..." summary doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the paragraph, so I am not sure how to take that.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Aergraith wrote:
That "in other words..." summary doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the paragraph, so I am not sure how to take that.
I don't see "in other words" used in what you are referring to. Not sure what you mean.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Not buying it, not talking about it, not interesting. Stopped caring what WotC was doing 7-8 years ago. I have enough games.

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote:
Aergraith wrote:
That "in other words..." summary doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the paragraph, so I am not sure how to take that.
I don't see "in other words" used in what you are referring to. Not sure what you mean.
Page 2 of the article wrote:The announcement of a new D&D doesn't mean that 4th edition is now a lame duck. Wizards recognizes that the game still has a very loyal following, and pledges to continue supporting 4th edition during the testing cycle of the new edition and beyond. "We plan to continue offering people access to tools like the D&D Character Builder and the D&D Monster Builder to support 4th edition," Mearls said. "We're also exploring ideas for conversion tools so that some of the 4th edition characters and content will be playable with the next edition." In other words, Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes.
Continuing to support the existing digital tools doesn't seem to have anything to do with adding a "layer" of rules.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Aergraith wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Aergraith wrote:
That "in other words..." summary doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the paragraph, so I am not sure how to take that.
I don't see "in other words" used in what you are referring to. Not sure what you mean.
Page 2 of the article wrote:The announcement of a new D&D doesn't mean that 4th edition is now a lame duck. Wizards recognizes that the game still has a very loyal following, and pledges to continue supporting 4th edition during the testing cycle of the new edition and beyond. "We plan to continue offering people access to tools like the D&D Character Builder and the D&D Monster Builder to support 4th edition," Mearls said. "We're also exploring ideas for conversion tools so that some of the 4th edition characters and content will be playable with the next edition." In other words, Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes.
Continuing to support the existing digital tools doesn't seem to have anything to do with adding a "layer" of rules.
Depends on how they write the s/w...

At the end of the day though, adding a Cessna cockpit layer to a Ford Pinto won't make it able to fly...
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote:
Sir Ironside wrote: True. and let me be clear, I have no idea how D&D Essentials work, (I hope that is what it is called. Their online supplement, so to speak.) Isn't there a way to make a announcement on there? If so it'll reach a much larger audience.
Not sure but, you'd just be reaching 4.x players.
I was referring to the comment about not all people are on forums. From what I gather there are many more people subscribing to their on-line support for 4th edition than peruse forums, hence a bigger audience.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

New or different editions of any game never fazed me, since I hardly went by the rules in any edition. Started in 1976 or 1977, and didn't understand the logic of some of the rules then (AC meant the weapon didn't even touch you??) - I think I ran all the G, S, and Q-series AD&D modules, as well as the earlier Judge's Guild adventures, while using a combination of OD&D, RQ1, and make-it-up-as-I-went-along rules. Heck, if someone told me they wanted to do something outrageous which was either funny or Darned Entertaining, I guarantee I'd fudge those dice rolls to make them succeed.

That said, I signed up to give my input on this so-called 5th version of D&D. Was feared there wouldn't be enough input from curmudgeons.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Arduin wrote: At the end of the day though, adding a Cessna cockpit layer to a Ford Pinto won't make it able to fly...
Image

;)

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

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Aramis wrote:
Arduin wrote: At the end of the day though, adding a Cessna cockpit layer to a Ford Pinto won't make it able to fly...
Image

;)

LOL!

Yep. Need more than a cockpit to make it fly.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Aramis »

Whatever game WOTC comes up with is probably not going to be of much interest for the markets they are trying to recapture. The youngsters find the flash and immediacy of MMORPGs more satisfying and the oldsters want the nostalgia and simplicity of previous games.

3rd ed failed for me because a) each game session seemed to be all about "builds" and other tiresome minutiae rather than adventure and b) almost equally important, the flavour of D&D shifted from Leiberesque Sword and Sorcery to a weird amalgam of Manga, superheroes, and Billy Idol videos. Both changes were antithetical to my preferences.

I never tried 4e, and I never really wanted to return to a retro rule system either. The annoying and substantial gaps in the original rules tend to bog sessions down with seminars of impromptu rule creation.

Similar to many members here, I find C&C to be an almost perfect balance of trade offs for role playing. We get the flavour we want, fast game play, and a wonderful rule mechanic that allows most rules discussions to be resolved in 30 seconds (e.g. make an appropriate attribute SIEGE check vs opponent's HD). Now of course, C&C isn't perfect, but it does offer by far the best gaming experience (for me) of the various options.

However, this is probably why a C&C type game won't come from WOTC anytime soon. C&C is too simple. WOTC is a business, and their business is selling supplements. If they don't have product every month, they go out of business. They would want to "improve" C&C with splat books galore, and of course playing cards of some kind. Always have to get some collectible element in there somewhere :lol: .

C&C is more of a hobbyist game (perhaps to the Troll Lords' chagrin ;) ). Heck, except for some spell/magic item stuff like range and duration, players hardly ever need to open their books (unless some fool tries to grapple). That is wonderful

However, if you want to really see the future of role playing, play some Skyrim

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Go0gleplex »

Absolutely unsurprising. They've been feeling this out for almost a year now. Too little too late. C&C is my game of choice now. I simply don't have the funds to buy something I'm not going to ever use just because it's a "new and shiny".
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by cuchulainkevin »

A couple of thoughts:
5e is mainly done. They are play-testing, not mixing and matching to produce some "uber"D&D. The play-testers exist to find holes and drum up excitement for the new edition.

Any grand edition that would appeal to all players would have to be extremely reductionist. I mean they would have to strip down the rules to something that everyone could agree with with a simple unified mechanic (it's called C&C and they missed the bus).

About the only effective goodwill gesture Wotc could make to many former customers would be to make the game An OGL game and restart older edition pdf sales.
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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Gundoggy »

For myself, why bother?

C&C gives me:

1. 1E feel with new gaming technology and a few twists to simplify the engine.
2. Easily tweaked to more resemble 1E (eg/ use 1E version of character classes/monsters).
3. All my 1E and hackmaster monster books are still good reference material.
4. Lots of supporting modules from TLG, not like 2E and its lack of modules, but way too many settings.
5. Compatibility with all the free 1E/OSRIC and other net fan made materials.
6. The system Gygax used to write Castle Zagyg!!!

I switched to 3E/3.5E and it was the worst mistake in my gaming group. Perhaps if I was a teenager I would have the time for all the minutiae, but as a parent, who has the time like that any more?? The last 3.5 adventure I ran for my group was Age of Worms, then I bought C&C and switched over. As a DM I was absolutely exhausted running 3.5. I'm also more philosophical about games these days, in my youth I always wanted more detailed rules to 'simulate reality' (Phoenix Command anyone?), now I view them as just a mechanism to further the story and plot, it's a game...no rule is perfect.

If the new 5E can bring back more of the simplicity and freedom and attract new players, than that's good for the hobby. For old school gamers like myself, C&C and my old 1E ...and some 2E modules which were good are all I need.

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Re: WOTC announcement today?

Post by Falinor »

The writer of the article in Escapist, Greg Tito, mentions:

Previous editions of the game had play testing periods, but Wizards restricted access to freelancers or those connected to the company and those tests were ineffectual at best. I was in a play testing group for 4th edition back in 2007, and we submitted a 30 page annotated document of what we felt worked and what didn't work with the rules we played. Other than my name among the hundreds of play testers in the back of the 4th edition Player's Handbook, nothing I submitted made it into print. Our feedback was summarily ignored, and Mearls admitted that was essentially true of all the feedback Wizards received from the 4th edition play test.

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