A question...

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REHowardfanatic
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A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

So I'm looking at the free pdf for D&D Next and I am wondering:

Am I limited to binary notions of gender in Castles and Crusades?????

Oh, the horror!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: A question...

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Yes.

Remember C&C is made in Arkansas where Men are Men and sheep are nervous. :lol:
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

I thought the only two genders in gaming were Geek and OMG! A GIRL!
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Re: A question...

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REHowardfanatic wrote:So I'm looking at the free pdf for D&D Next and I am wondering:

Am I limited to binary notions of gender in Castles and Crusades?????

Oh, the horror!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Yes, weird that Wizzo's thought that they needed to give permission to customers of a ROLE playing game to role play... REALLY weird mindset on their part.

And, why didn't they give permission to those men with sheep? I call discrimination!!! :o
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Re: A question...

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This is why Midwest game design trumps west coast game design.
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Re: A question...

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Julian Grimm wrote:This is why Midwest game design trumps west coast game design.
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Re: A question...

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Not to be entirely on the serious bus with this, but we have gamers of all sorts. When relating to the source material, even if we play things entirely opposite from who we are in our day-to-day lives, it helps to see something of ourselves in the sourcebooks. Including things like non-binary notions of sex or gender, as well as sexual orientation, in their sourcebook is a way of saying "you're welcome in our world" to those that find themselves of a non-binary sex or gender or a non-heterosexual orientation. Given that role-playing games should be open to all, inclusion makes a lot of sense.

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Re: A question...

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Litzen Tallister wrote:Not to be entirely on the serious bus with this, but we have gamers of all sorts. When relating to the source material, even if we play things entirely opposite from who we are in our day-to-day lives, it helps to see something of ourselves in the sourcebooks. Including things like non-binary notions of sex or gender, as well as sexual orientation, in their sourcebook is a way of saying "you're welcome in our world" to those that find themselves of a non-binary sex or gender or a non-heterosexual orientation. Given that role-playing games should be open to all, inclusion makes a lot of sense.
Well put. I was a bit disturbed when I heard some of the hateful and angry reactions to this. On the other hand, while I have no problem with one's sexual orientation / identification, it almost seems WOTC was trying too hard to be inclusive. Still, I find it silly that people on both sides of the issue are actually making this an issue in the first place.

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Re: A question...

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I really don't care what other people do. I am of the mindset that even if I disagree with you that you still deserve respect, and dare I say, love no matter what. However, if I was of a different orientation I think I would actually find it insulting to have seen that line as it is almost exploitative in its writing.
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Re: A question...

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moriarty777 wrote: On the other hand, while I have no problem with one's sexual orientation / identification, it almost seems WOTC was trying too hard to be inclusive. Still, I find it silly that people on both sides of the issue are actually making this an issue in the first place.

M
Yes. I've heard from more than one gamer who is a parent of pre-teens. In short, they went over the line for a game also aimed at kids. They won't purchase for the kids now as they don't know what is going to be in any D&D WOTC book they purchase. They just placed their books solidly in a no go for pre-teens in MANY families. They endangered a large demo for much smaller one. Interesting marketing move. As an adult I don't care. But as a business person it is interesting to watch.
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
Yes. I've heard from more than one gamer who is a parent of pre-teens. In short, they went over the line for a game also aimed at kids. They won't purchase for the kids now as they don't know what is going to be in any D&D WOTC book they purchase. They just placed their books solidly in a no go for pre-teens in MANY families. They endangered a large demo for much smaller one. Interesting marketing move. As an adult I don't care. But as a business person it is interesting to watch.
While some parents may have values that would have them avoiding their children being exposed to such things, there are many parents out there who would prefer their children to think, when it comes to gender or sexual orientation, that whatever orientation or identity you have is ok. And, in the D&D Basic Rules, I see nothing salacious or untoward in what they put into the text, other than reflecting that, just as in the real world, the fantasy world they have created also represents alternatives to heteronormativity or the gender binary. What is in an average music video on MTV (do kids even watch that anymore?) I find much more offensive for youth than a passing mention in a RPG sourcebook.

But, this is a very personal issue for many people (myself included). Wizards has made it clear where they stand on the matter.

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Re: A question...

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Litzen Tallister wrote:
While some parents may have values that would have them avoiding their children being exposed to such things, there are many parents out there who would prefer their children to think, when it comes to gender or sexual orientation, that whatever orientation or identity you have is ok.
Of course. I'm just commenting on the business side of it. I am EXTREMELY well versed in the US consumer market. It is a bold move to risk a market many times as large as a market you are courting with such a move. Purely academic interest. I have no emotional position on others private lives. I know down to less than a % point attitudes of many different demo's on many topics. RPG's play to such a small subset of the US consumer pop it is difficult to predict how marketing to it will play out when broad stroke PR is used. (such as this move by WotC was.)

*make NO mistake. It was a calculated PR play.
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Re: A question...

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Because biologically there are two genders.
In Troll lords short stories and npc rosters (check out bluffside) they are very progressive displaying a wide range of npcs and characters with different sexualities .
But biologically there are only 2 genders.
Its not backwards it is just common sense players don't need to select from a laundry list of mental/emotional genders they just have to choose between one of the 2 immediate appearance altering ones and then they are allowed to fill in the blanks , just like people in real life some characters are born into what they see as the wrong gender , or have different sexualities the binary is very real at a biological stand point and that's what matters for character descriptions under the grouping called appearance. you will find down at the bottom of the character sheet a section dubbed character notes, that's where I put information of my characters sexuality and background.

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Re: A question...

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Vicarious Pendrake wrote:Because biologically there are two genders.
In Troll lords short stories and npc rosters (check out bluffside) they are very progressive displaying a wide range of npcs and characters with different sexualities .
But biologically there are only 2 genders.
Its not backwards it is just common sense players don't need to select from a laundry list of mental/emotional genders they just have to choose between one of the 2 immediate appearance altering ones and then they are allowed to fill in the blanks , just like people in real life some characters are born into what they see as the wrong gender , or have different sexualities the binary is very real at a biological stand point and that's what matters for character descriptions under the grouping called appearance. you will find down at the bottom of the character sheet a section dubbed character notes, that's where I put information of my characters sexuality and background.

That is false. There are not two biological genders, there are two biological sexes (if you don't count intersex, which is a medical designation). Gender is a mental and social factor/construct. Sex is a physiological and anatomical designation. Sex designation is assigned at birth based on anatomy (NOT chromosomes). Gender designation is assumed based on the sex designation given to the person.

Should WotC (and Paizo, for that matter) make a big deal about it in the game? I have no idea if they should or not. I do understand them wanting to be inclusive and seem welcoming to all possible players. It has only been relatively recently that a person of color has been represented in the art of the game, after all, maybe this is their idea of swinging the bar doors open and inviting everyone to the dance.

I'm not sure it will work, but the attempt doesn't hurt my game at all, so I mostly ignore it.
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Re: A question...

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Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!
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Re: A question...

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REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!
No good deed goes unpunished. 8-)
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Re: A question...

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DMSamuel wrote: Gender is a mental and social factor/construct.
Yep, so is species. I'm a spotted owl. (people can decide that they are anything) I had the government remove a whole neighborhood of people from around my house because I couldn't sleep. :lol:
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Re: A question...

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REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!

LOL - sorry, I was quite enjoying the fun until someone had to go and state something patently false :lol:

I'm a biologist by training (PhD) so I couldn't let that one slide - especially from someone who just registered and it is their only post, which to me screamed "sock puppet."
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote: Gender is a mental and social factor/construct.
Yep, so is species. I'm a spotted owl. I had the government remove a whole neighborhood of people from around my house because I couldn't sleep. :lol:

Haha - just be glad you aren't a sooty moth!
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Re: A question...

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DMSamuel wrote:
Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote: Gender is a mental and social factor/construct.
Yep, so is species. I'm a spotted owl. I had the government remove a whole neighborhood of people from around my house because I couldn't sleep. :lol:

Haha - just be glad you aren't a sooty moth!
I was when I lived in England during the Industrial revolution. :shock:
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Re: A question...

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DMSamuel wrote:
I'm a biologist by training (PhD)
Would love to have someone like you do up a fictitious xeno biology (monster builder book) for Traveller RPG!
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote:
I'm a biologist by training (PhD)
Would love to have someone like you do up a fictitious xeno biology (monster builder book) for Traveller RPG!
That would be a ton of fun! The question is... which edition of Traveller?

*boom*

Did you hear that? The sound of an edition war being born

:lol:
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Re: A question...

Post by Vicarious Pendrake »

DMSamuel wrote:
REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!

LOL - sorry, I was quite enjoying the fun until someone had to go and state something patently false :lol:

I'm a biologist by training (PhD) so I couldn't let that one slide - especially from someone who just registered and it is their only post, which to me screamed "sock puppet."
It actually is my first post on these forums im used to skimming for information on new releases and the like.
I still say there are only two genders if we go by the Merriam Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender , we can agree to disagree but im under the opinion that there are only two genders and only two sexes . There is indeed multiple sexualities and sexual identities but the word gender is firmly rooted in the English language as being the same as sex so no there are not more than two genders. As Alduin said wanting to be a spotted owl dosent change your species although it can be a part of your sexuality or mental identity I mean look at furries they aren't conventionally classified as being of a different species its considered a sexuality and please don't take any of what I post as hateful or charged with prejudice my sexuality is quite aberrant by "normal" societies definition , my argument is on a lingual level . I honestly think posting 50 different sexualities in the core rules is detrimental to the product if simply due to text space running up book costs , I have friends at my gamestore who are homosexual and transsexual , they have played characters that shared their sexuality and they had no issue with the corebook having a biological binary.

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Re: A question...

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DMSamuel wrote:
Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote:
I'm a biologist by training (PhD)
Would love to have someone like you do up a fictitious xeno biology (monster builder book) for Traveller RPG!
That would be a ton of fun! The question is... which edition of Traveller?

*boom*

Did you hear that? The sound of an edition war being born

:lol:
LOL.

I wouldn't design it as edition (or maybe even game) specific. Just a way to design organisms for different planetary environments. Given physical data, stats could be derived from it given the outlines already existing for creatures in various games.

Data such as, "The voltage administered from the this electric lizard is enough to kill 2 adult humans. Its rate of movement is approx 30 kph over the black sands of ..."
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Re: A question...

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Vicarious Pendrake wrote: I still say there are only two genders if we go by the Merriam Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender ,
Changing definitions of words to push political/social agendas is an old trick. Lenin & Stalin's crew were the masters of that early in the 20th century when they were trying to subdue Eastern Russia and push U.S., Japanese & British troops out of Siberia region.

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Re: A question...

Post by Vicarious Pendrake »

Arduin wrote:
Vicarious Pendrake wrote: I still say there are only two genders if we go by the Merriam Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender ,
Changing definitions of words to push political/social agendas is an old trick. Lenin & Stalin's crew were the masters of that early in the 20th century when they were trying to subdue Eastern Russia and push U.S., Japanese & British troops out of Siberia region.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it..."
Soon I will be dubbed a "bio truther " and burned at the stake on that pyre at the top of my ash ravaged lungs I will scream MERRIAM!!!! :D

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Re: A question...

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Vicarious Pendrake wrote:It actually is my first post on these forums im used to skimming for information on new releases and the like.[/q]

Welcome to the forums! I didn't mean to insult you with the suggestion of a sock puppet account, it just seemed... like a set-up to me. To get a rise out of someone - forums are notoriously hard for judging a person's intent, so I apologize.

Vicarious Pendrake wrote:I still say there are only two genders if we go by the Merriam Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender , we can agree to disagree but im under the opinion that there are only two genders and only two sexes . There is indeed multiple sexualities and sexual identities but the word gender is firmly rooted in the English language as being the same as sex so no there are not more than two genders. As Alduin said wanting to be a spotted owl dosent change your species although it can be a part of your sexuality or mental identity I mean look at furries they aren't conventionally classified as being of a different species its considered a sexuality and please don't take any of what I post as hateful or charged with prejudice my sexuality is quite aberrant by "normal" societies definition , my argument is on a lingual level . I honestly think posting 50 different sexualities in the core rules is detrimental to the product if simply due to text space running up book costs , I have friends at my gamestore who are homosexual and transsexual , they have played characters that shared their sexuality and they had no issue with the corebook having a biological binary.
I was not speaking of language or culture, really - I was stating the fact that, from a biological perspective, sex and gender are different.

Besides, if the dictionary said that African Americans were obviously of inferior intelligence would you use that entry to show that they are less intelligent than Caucasians? This is not a straw man - many people used to believe that African Americans were biologically less able to be as intelligent as the other "races" on the planet, and that is patently untrue. It is an antiquated form of oppression, and it has been abolished as a "common knowledge" piece of information in our society and culture. Because of that, the definitions have changed. I can all but guarantee you that the definition of gender will change within the next 100 years or so.
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Re: A question...

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Vicarious Pendrake wrote:Soon I will be dubbed a "bio truther " and burned at the stake on that pyre at the top of my ash ravaged lungs I will scream MERRIAM!!!! :D
Haha.
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Re: A question...

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

DMSamuel wrote:
Vicarious Pendrake wrote:Because biologically there are two genders.
In Troll lords short stories and npc rosters (check out bluffside) they are very progressive displaying a wide range of npcs and characters with different sexualities .
But biologically there are only 2 genders.
Its not backwards it is just common sense players don't need to select from a laundry list of mental/emotional genders they just have to choose between one of the 2 immediate appearance altering ones and then they are allowed to fill in the blanks , just like people in real life some characters are born into what they see as the wrong gender , or have different sexualities the binary is very real at a biological stand point and that's what matters for character descriptions under the grouping called appearance. you will find down at the bottom of the character sheet a section dubbed character notes, that's where I put information of my characters sexuality and background.

That is false. There are not two biological genders, there are two biological sexes (if you don't count intersex, which is a medical designation). Gender is a mental and social factor/construct. Sex is a physiological and anatomical designation. Sex designation is assigned at birth based on anatomy (NOT chromosomes). Gender designation is assumed based on the sex designation given to the person.


I'm not sure it will work, but the attempt doesn't hurt my game at all, so I mostly ignore it.
Does sex determination occur at birth, or when the Wolffian / Müllerian ducts differentiate / apoptose in utero? Not being snarky, just never found a satisfactory answer.

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Re: A question...

Post by Vicarious Pendrake »

When the definition of gender changes I support changing the word gender in the core books to sex until that word changes as well. That being said as for the time the book was created the language used was correct. I think what dnd next did was silly and possibly a exploitive way to create page filler. as others have said no one needs permission to role play a character in a certain way or to even be shown sexuality be it heterosexual or non heterosexual , male and female should be listed under the category of appearance as it is in c&c one of my favorite characters was a female gnome cleric who was transsexual .
As it stands c&c is very neutral and I love that its welcoming to everyone .

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