A question...

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Sir Osis of Liver
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Re: A question...

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Besides, John, I'd rather be in a geek-off than a political debate. ;)

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Re: A question...

Post by DMSamuel »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote: C&C or nothing! :twisted:

HEAR HEAR! HEAR HEAR!
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Castles and Crusades IS Dungeons and Dragons!
Only it maintains the feel of the original. None of that mamby-pamby superhero fantasy crap where every character has 6 classes, 3 magical armors, 18 magical weapons, and a pet dragon.

Erlik's pectorals what happened to my game!?
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Re: A question...

Post by moriarty777 »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:Better than talking about the game that shall not be named. C&C or nothing! :twisted:
What... Rifts?

I know the character creation process will make you want to tear your eyes at times but refusing to name it is a bit harsh. ;)

On a serious note:

Great thread folks -- I think this goes to show that a bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and I'm glad to be in a community that can have a discussion (when it arises) without becoming a locked thread. That... and some good humor thrown in always helps to diffuse potential tense situations (not that I'm saying this was one of these so-called 'tense' situations.

M
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Sir Osis of Liver
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Re: A question...

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

moriarty777 wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote:Better than talking about the game that shall not be named. C&C or nothing! :twisted:
What... Rifts?

I know the character creation process will make you want to tear your eyes at times but refusing to name it is a bit harsh. ;)

On a serious note:

Great thread folks -- I think this goes to show that a bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and I'm glad to be in a community that can have a discussion (when it arises) without becoming a locked thread. That... and some good humor thrown in always helps to diffuse potential tense situations (not that I'm saying this was one of these so-called 'tense' situations.

M
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Litzen Tallister
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Re: A question...

Post by Litzen Tallister »

moriarty777 wrote: On a serious note:

Great thread folks -- I think this goes to show that a bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and I'm glad to be in a community that can have a discussion (when it arises) without becoming a locked thread. That... and some good humor thrown in always helps to diffuse potential tense situations (not that I'm saying this was one of these so-called 'tense' situations.

M
Indeed, not a single "your mom" assault and only a handful of loaded phrases, far above the wastelands of other forums. ;)

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Re: A question...

Post by Arduin »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
moriarty777 wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote:Better than talking about the game that shall not be named. C&C or nothing! :twisted:
What... Rifts?

I know the character creation process will make you want to tear your eyes at times but refusing to name it is a bit harsh. ;)

On a serious note:

Great thread folks -- I think this goes to show that a bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and I'm glad to be in a community that can have a discussion (when it arises) without becoming a locked thread. That... and some good humor thrown in always helps to diffuse potential tense situations (not that I'm saying this was one of these so-called 'tense' situations.

M
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Re: A question...

Post by Julian Grimm »

Well, as far as geek-offs go I just discovered Torchwood on Netflix. See you all in a few days. . . 8-)
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Re: A question...

Post by serleran »

To determine the answer to the battle, we need a few more guidelines for assumptions.

If I am, for example, allowed to have a level 12 wizard with no GP or magic item creation limitations, there is no question that PC will win against a barbarian. Likewise, if the wizard has a full complement of spells still and has had plenty of time to prepare, or has been such before the fight (ie, several stoneskin spells cast in advance). Also, does he have a scroll of shape change? I'd totally use that to call forth my own barbarian horde.

Anyway, the point is that a completely open-ended question like that tends to favor the spellcaster. It is not necessarily a given... I mean, after all, does the fight start with the wizard in the grasp of the barbie's fingers? And... who won initiative?

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Re: A question...

Post by Zudrak »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
moriarty777 wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote:Better than talking about the game that shall not be named. C&C or nothing! :twisted:
What... Rifts?

I know the character creation process will make you want to tear your eyes at times but refusing to name it is a bit harsh. ;)

On a serious note:

Great thread folks -- I think this goes to show that a bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and I'm glad to be in a community that can have a discussion (when it arises) without becoming a locked thread. That... and some good humor thrown in always helps to diffuse potential tense situations (not that I'm saying this was one of these so-called 'tense' situations.

M
And cheese dip. Must have cheese dip.
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Re: A question...

Post by Zudrak »

Julian Grimm wrote:Well, as far as geek-offs go I just discovered Torchwood on Netflix. See you all in a few days. . . 8-)
Enjoy it! My wife got me into that and Dr. Who (with Christopher Eccleston) when we first started dating. Creepy but fun.

Question: How is this woman into all this geeky stuff (including playing Xbox 360 games like Skyrim and the Fallout games) but refuses to even try a role-playing game where a person -- and not the Xbox -- is the DM/CK? *sob*

(sorry)
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
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Re: A question...

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Zudrak wrote:
Image

Groooooooooo, wow, that brings back old memories !!!! Man that was one of my favorite comics back in the day !
Zudrak wrote:
Julian Grimm wrote:Well, as far as geek-offs go I just discovered Torchwood on Netflix. See you all in a few days. . . 8-)
Enjoy it! My wife got me into that and Dr. Who (with Christopher Eccleston) when we first started dating. Creepy but fun.

Question: How is this woman into all this geeky stuff (including playing Xbox 360 games like Skyrim and the Fallout games) but refuses to even try a role-playing game where a person -- and not the Xbox -- is the DM/CK? *sob*

(sorry)
JG, enjoy it, my wife loves the show, but I never got into it ... just not quite my cup of tea ...

Zudrak, I'm with you there. My wife is a bigger geek than I am - especially in the sci fi arena, & defiantly in the computer game area - but rolls her eyes when I mention RPGs ... oh well.
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Re: A question...

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Litzen Tallister wrote:Not to be entirely on the serious bus with this, but we have gamers of all sorts. When relating to the source material, even if we play things entirely opposite from who we are in our day-to-day lives, it helps to see something of ourselves in the sourcebooks. Including things like non-binary notions of sex or gender, as well as sexual orientation, in their sourcebook is a way of saying "you're welcome in our world" to those that find themselves of a non-binary sex or gender or a non-heterosexual orientation. Given that role-playing games should be open to all, inclusion makes a lot of sense.
THIS
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote: *make NO mistake. It was a calculated PR play.
THIS too!
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Re: A question...

Post by Relaxo »

REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!
LOL
Please don't feel that way. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure this is all in a spirit of good intellectual fun, without malice.

EDIT:
I should have read all four pages of this thread before sticking my foot in my mouth.... mmmmm... foot. :LOL:
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Re: A question...

Post by DMSamuel »

Relaxo wrote:
REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom's sweaty balls! That's the last time I joke on THIS forum!!
LOL
Please don't feel that way. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure this is all in a spirit of good intellectual fun, without malice.

EDIT:
I should have read all four pages of this thread before sticking my foot in my mouth.... mmmmm... foot. :LOL:

LOL - I don't see your foot in your mouth.

For my part, I was having a bit of geeky bio discussion - definitely meant in good fun and not meaning to offend anyone or be too too serious.
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Re: A question...

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Zudrak wrote:
Julian Grimm wrote:Well, as far as geek-offs go I just discovered Torchwood on Netflix. See you all in a few days. . . 8-)
Enjoy it! My wife got me into that and Dr. Who (with Christopher Eccleston) when we first started dating. Creepy but fun.


I really like the new Dr. Who series and look forward to watching more. Torchwood has really surprised me as to how much I love the show. Just a few episodes in but I can tell this is not your run of the mill sci-fi series.
Question: How is this woman into all this geeky stuff (including playing Xbox 360 games like Skyrim and the Fallout games) but refuses to even try a role-playing game where a person -- and not the Xbox -- is the DM/CK? *sob*

(sorry)
I have the same issue.
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

I am a fortunate savage!
My woman is a geek without peer. She is as lovely and brilliant and she is knowledgeable about X-Men and Marvel Comics, Star Trek, X-Files, Star Wars, and Sailor Moon! And not only does she love to game but she can be positively obnoxious about it (since she never GMs)! And vidoe games... Crom, that woman and her video games!

Is it any wonder I've had her for 15 years and would slay the man who tried to get her away!?
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Re: A question...

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Zudrak wrote: Question: How is this woman into all this geeky stuff (including playing Xbox 360 games like Skyrim and the Fallout games) but refuses to even try a role-playing game where a person -- and not the Xbox -- is the DM/CK? *sob*

(sorry)
My wife has full sized suits of armor in her office, dragon sculptures, Viking weapons all over the place (she is Danish) and won't touch FRPGs... :(
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Re: A question...

Post by Relaxo »

Perhaps ask her how to pronounce all the stuff in the Codex Nordica and it may spiral out of control from there... :D
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Re: A question...

Post by koralas »

DMSamuel wrote:
Litzen Tallister wrote:
Arduin wrote:
ACTUALLY, scientifically, gender used to be defined the same as "sex" in peer reviewed biology texts. (go back and look at the written materials 5 decades ago). The definition was simply changed. It may be changed again 50 years ago. Subjective material is subject to change as political winds change direction. The DSM used to contain all info regarding people who identified as being different from their physical body. (including thinking that one was a Spotted Owl)

I'm in my 6th decade of life to maybe it had already changed when you went to school...
The definition of science is that it is tentative...
Well, I wouldn't say that the word 'tentative' actually describes science. Science is a PROCESS. It is way of observing and describing natural phenomena using a specific methodology, and cataloging the observed items so that a prediction can be made about other similar items and/or about the future behavior of a subject.

Eventually, a hypothesis has so many (and I mean hundreds or thousands) of experiments performed to test it, with results that support the hypothesis, that the scientific community accepts that hypothesis as a scientific truth. The term "Theory" is often bandied about when this occurs, but I hate that word because the non-scientific meaning of theory is "just a guess" and that is not what a biological Theory is at all. In biology, a Theory is the same as a Law of Physics - we don't generally question those, and when we do, it leads to only relatively small changes in the law, not complete abolishment of it (I'm talking about, for example, the laws of motion).

If a bunch of experiments come along and test the hypothesis with a new experiment, and the results do not support the hypothesis, and those results are replicable (i.e. not a fluke of one scientist) then the scientific community revises its position so that it more fully reflects the reality of the experimental results. That isn't tentative, it's adaptability and willingness to accept new results.
I agree that science is a process, but therein lies the problem. Changing the definition of words is not the proper way of following the process. Further, you are not necessarily measuring natural phenomena, rather man-induced phenomena. Atoms are split in nuclear reactors, they are not naturally splitting. Particles are accelerating in the LHC and when they collide they are measured, this is not a natural occurrence. I know what you are meaning to say, and is better stated that you are conducting repeatable experiments and recording the observations to reach a conclusion in support of, or to refute, the hypothesis of a Theory.

There have been previous discussions in these threads on Theories and their meanings and how a scientific Theory is different from a theory. Still here, in your description, you do not sufficiently describe a Theory. You mention a hypothesis has experiments to test it with results that support the hypothesis, and that becomes accepted as a scientific truth. Here you state you don't like the term theory, when in reality that is exactly what it is, a hypothesis, an educated guess as to the outcome of experiments that are defined within the Theory. The Theory is then tested through those experiments to see if the hypothesis is correct. By definition the Theory has to have a method by which it may be dis-proven, thus all results, even those that fail must be recorded and entered into the record. Here minor changes often occur either in the hypothesis or the experiments until the hypothesis is accepted as a scientific truth, often resulting in a scientific Law.

However, if a law is found false, it is discarded and the Theory is either discarded in favor of a newly presented Theory, or existing Theory is modified, that is the Hypothesis is rewritten and the experiments reformulated, and testing begun anew. It is here where many have issues with the scientific community. We often deride those that change their positions on things as a flip-flopper. Here Steven Hawking is one of the biggest flip-floppers ever known. Obviously a brilliant man, he has postulated Theories that were accepted as scientific truth, only to refute those and replace the Theories with other Theories, often more than once. When something is accepted as scientific truth anyone that does not agree is derided as small-minded, uneducated, or intolerant. When that Theory is later changed, or more, refuted completely, then isn't the shoe really on the other foot? Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time. Often then artificial stimuli are utilized to compensate, including only selecting from the samples of initial, or intermediate experiments, those that support the Theory, and discarding those that do not. This artificially skews the results towards the desired outcome and is bad science, though it is often accepted in the scientific community.

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Re: A question...

Post by Arduin »

koralas wrote:Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time.
Be definition, that then is NOT a scientific Theory. Those who would proclaim them as such are not actual scientists. By definition.
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
koralas wrote:Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time.
Be definition, that then is NOT a scientific Theory. Those who would proclaim them as such are not actual scientists. By definition.
I like to call those... Rumors.

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Re: A question...

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serleran wrote:
Arduin wrote:
koralas wrote:Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time.
Be definition, that then is NOT a scientific Theory. Those who would proclaim them as such are not actual scientists. By definition.
I like to call those... Rumors.
:lol: I like that.
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Re: A question...

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Geeking out on science is great fun. I quite enjoy it myself. But to do so in this situation is really to miss the forest for the trees. D&D isn't a scientific endeavor, not even in the squishy social science context. It's a game. More accurately, It's a product, meant to make money for a very large corporation. A product that is designed and then marketed with those goals foremost in mind. As someone trained scientifically and employed in marketing, I can say, this kind of thing has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with science. LGBT "angles" are the rage in marketing right now. It's a race by corporations to see who can show their embrace of LGBT issues first. I personally don't care either way because I see it for what it is. It's not about inclusivity (as another poster said, if it were, they'd mention the ability to roleplay a handicapped person, or any ethnicity mix, a rape victim, or someone who is clinically depressed). These are all constituencies that are not the norm and therefore according to some comments being willfully excluded from D&D. I think everyone here knows that concept (by not mentioning a group, you're excluding them) to be nonsense. If handicapped issues were as hot in the media right now as LGBT issues, you can bet they would have made mention of it in the PHB. They didn't, to my knowledge, make an effort to include war wounded for example. This is not because they don't want limbless or PTSD sufferers to play and feel welcome. It's because it's irrelevant to the design and marketing of the game. LGBT is obviously irrelevant to the design, but they've clearly decided it was not irrelevant to the marketing.

Having said all that, I would like to repair to my feinting couch. Since that is probably the funniest thing I've read all day. :)
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Re: A question...

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mbeacom wrote: As someone trained scientifically and employed in marketing, I can say, this kind of thing has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with science.
Exactly. As I stated earlier in thread. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. My S/O is a top PR Professioal. I passed this by her and she thinks that WotC was very brave in doing this in a product also aimed at kids as it could backfire.
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: As someone trained scientifically and employed in marketing, I can say, this kind of thing has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with science.
Exactly. As I stated earlier in thread. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. My S/O is a top PR Professioal. I passed this by her and she thinks that WotC was very brave in doing this in a product also aimed at kids as it could backfire.
I understand your S/Os way of thinking but I feel pretty confident that WotC made the "correct" marketing decision here. D&D is an utterly secular product and this issue has been defined (rightly or wrongly) as a mostly religious issue (the assumption being that outside of a religious context, no one should be bothered by any of it). D&D has been largely rejected by religious sectors of society and to some degree, even the non-religious traditional values sectors (meaning they have little to lose in those markets). Keep in mind, we're living in an era where the President has officially "come around" on these issues (meaning it's politically safe to finally admit to what he has always believed), we've been introduced to the "proud" Whopper from Burger King and where even The Boy Scouts have switched course. It's a pretty safe time for this kind of thing. When politicians feel it's safe to change their positions, public critical mass has been reached. Also, I've seen research that shows there is a greater downside potential to be shamed by the LGBT community than to be rejected by traditionalists who are not nearly as boycotty as they used to be. Perhaps though to the uninitiated it comes across as bold. In any event, expect to see a lot more of it in the future. I've seen multiple national ad-campaigns looking for ways to embrace this type of messaging.
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Re: A question...

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mbeacom wrote: I understand your S/Os way of thinking

Not a way of thinking. Just based on demo surveys (done as per the subject of Statistics) of parents with pre-teen and early teen children. Competent mktg & PR is BASED on sound research. Not the practitioners individual, quirky thinking. The data has no religions connotation. Simply what the VAST majority of parents, in the US, want or, don't want their children exposed to.
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Re: A question...

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Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: I understand your S/Os way of thinking

Not a way of thinking. Just based on demo surveys (done as per the subject of Statistics) of parents with pre-teen and early teen children. Competent mktg & PR is BASED on sound research. Not the practitioners individual, quirky thinking. The data has no religions connotation. Simply what the VAST majority of parents, in the US, want or, don't want their children exposed to.
Sorry for the poor wording. That was implied. In marketing, how you see something, or how you think about it is always based on the relevant demo numbers/studies one has access to. So when I say I understand someones way of thinking, that means I've seen the numbers too and understand how that conclusion could be drawn. I've been looking at similar stuff for years but in the past few years, there has been a marked change in the non-religious non-traditional demo numbers as far as what they are ok with (meaning they may not like it, but it won't adversely effect their purchasing decisions). Basically, the mass market has mostly learned to ignore stuff they don't like, but to tolerate it. Now, if someone was looking at more market wide numbers like uncategorized parents of pre-teen, the numbers might still look bad for WotC, but when you filter out the demos that are already uninterested in D&D as a brand or product, you're very likely left with reasonable evidence they made the "correct" call. Which is precisely why politicians are rapidly changing course. Mass market corporations like Burger King are falling all over themselves to embrace the change, etc. This just doesn't happen because people change their mind. It's because the numbers they see coming in justify the change. It's purely driven by a profit motive (which is fine).
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Re: A question...

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mbeacom wrote: I've been looking at similar stuff for years but in the past few years, there has been a marked change in the non-religious non-traditional demo numbers as far as what they are ok with (meaning they may not like it, but it won't adversely effect their purchasing decisions).
This is based on data from ~6 months ago. (the study being part of a Holiday sales quarter post-mortem for some consumer products) That' why she thought it was a brave decision. I do too. Unless of course the mkt people over at WotC haven't been doing up to date home work in that area. Then I would call it an uncalculated mkt risk :lol:
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