A question...

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REHowardfanatic
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Crom! This swill again. :evil:

I swear I am going to gather my armies, ride to your houses, burn all your rainbow flags, and gut you all on spits over the fires made of your Twilight book collections!

Science! Hah!
Psychology! Hah!
The internet is more like it!

D&D is a [expletive] game. If that is too hard for you, then move along! It is a game based on imagination! Play pretend! Like what little children are able to understand without any guidance at all!

Yet, you are confused! Groan. Damn civillization and the insipid degeneration of intelligence that creeps in with its damanable acceptance of every crybaby whose mother didn't nurse at her breast until he, she, or whatever the scarlet hells was 20 summers of age!!

DO YOU NEED A GAME DESIGNER TO TELL YOU IT IS OKAY TO PLAY A CERTAIN GENDER?

Crom take you if you do, you weak-spined, limp-wristed smear on the @$$ of your cur of a father!

NOW--
Get OFF of my thread before I really do get angry! :evil:

CROM!
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Re: A question...

Post by mbeacom »

Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: I've been looking at similar stuff for years but in the past few years, there has been a marked change in the non-religious non-traditional demo numbers as far as what they are ok with (meaning they may not like it, but it won't adversely effect their purchasing decisions).
This is based on data from ~6 months ago. (the study being part of a Holiday sales quarter post-mortem for some consumer products) That' why she thought it was a brave decision. I do too. Unless of course the mkt people over at WotC haven't been doing up to date home work in that area. Then I would call it an uncalculated mkt risk :lol:
Well, I'd have to see the data to comment specifically. But if it didn't filter out the sectors already averse to D&D (religious/traditional) as a brand and product and it wasn't specific to the gaming industry, at best it might be confusing and at worst might lead to the wrong conclusion. Also, extrapolating holiday data to the broader market timeframe is very difficult. A buyer might have no problem buying a D&D book for their own child, but will be unsure what another parent might consider appropriate so they might not buy it as a gift for someone elses child. Holiday shopping results have external forcing that can be difficult to know. "Consumer products" is also very general. Deodorant is a consumer product. So are toasters. Numbers coming from sales of those type of products won't be particularly useful to someone trying to market an RPG hardcover book. It's easy to misread general data if you attempt to apply it to a specific product. What WotC needs and and almost certainly has, is a large volume of survey responses to questions like "Should D&D be more inclusive?" or "Would you be more or less likely to purchase gaming products that are marketed towards groups with diverse ethnicity, religions or sexuality?" Suffice it to say, if you believe WotC did this for marketing, you can bet they have a pile of very industry specific research that helped make the decision.
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mbeacom
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Re: A question...

Post by mbeacom »

REHowardfanatic wrote:Crom! This swill again. :evil:

I swear I am going to gather my armies, ride to your houses, burn all your rainbow flags, and gut you all on spits over the fires made of your Twilight book collections!

Science! Hah!
Psychology! Hah!
The internet is more like it!

D&D is a [expletive] game. If that is too hard for you, then move along! It is a game based on imagination! Play pretend! Like what little children are able to understand without any guidance at all!

Yet, you are confused! Groan. Damn civillization and the insipid degeneration of intelligence that creeps in with its damanable acceptance of every crybaby whose mother didn't nurse at her breast until he, she, or whatever the scarlet hells was 20 summers of age!!

DO YOU NEED A GAME DESIGNER TO TELL YOU IT IS OKAY TO PLAY A CERTAIN GENDER?

Crom take you if you do, you weak-spined, limp-wristed smear on the @$$ of your cur of a father!

NOW--
Get OFF of my thread before I really do get angry! :evil:

CROM!
I can take a hint. I'll slowly back away from the large angry one brandishing the very sharp steel.
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Re: A question...

Post by Arduin »

mbeacom wrote:Also, extrapolating holiday data to the broader market timeframe is very difficult.
It was about buyers for the age groups in question. Not difficult at all. I read the survey. I've built consumer product companies myself up to $70 million/year. The % of parents in that age group who are opposed to D&D type games is almost non-existent know (don't know if you knew that fact). They survey data was clear. Ya may not like it but, there it is. ;)
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REHowardfanatic
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

(Seriously, though- this is not diversity. It is the illusion of diversity and if it fools you, then you are not as wide-minded as you claim, but are easily fooled by well-placed @$$ kissing. This is pandering to a loud cry from the internet in hopes of getting 'word of mouth' advertising from the same such.

True diversity would simply have stated that the player can play any character of any nationality, gender, ethnic background, religion, age, political background, socio-economic background, etc, that is desired and approved by the DM as appropriate to his campaign. That is not what happened. What happened was a pretentious, stupid little spiel scrawled out in crayon in as pompous a tongue as I have seen outside of Age of Enlightenment essays. Over gender. Gender. Nothing else (well, I think ethnicity was given a little hand waving, but I digress). This stupid little spiel was digressive from the rules and unneccessary to a game of imagination where player character can assume the roles of non-human races and worship dozens of make believe gods.

This stupid little spiel proves that the game designers think you need their permission to play your character. It proves that they cannot edit out what it necessary to the play of the game and what is not. It proves that they take themselves far too seriously for game designers because they cannot lay aside soapboxing didacticism for long enough to even properly write a rulebook for a silly little game of unadulterated immaturity!

As for the science debate... Good grief. I refuse to get involved in that one except to say that modern science and history have become as corrupted by politicism as had literature when I was in college two decades ago and no learning has yet to benefit from such an involvement.)

Now, please, no more with this, okay?
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

On to the challenge issued. I believe a wizard threatened me, the regent of Aquilonia.

You have your magicks, to be sure. That is no small edge.

I have an edge of mine own. I have the unassailable might of the Hyborean Age's most powerful nation: Aquilonia. At my beckon lies legions of loyal soldiers. That is no boast or exaggeration- it is a count of the men bearing arms in my name. I also have a hundred knights of Poitain in shining armors astride destriers. I have a thousand Bossonain archers hardened in wars with the Picts. I have the clerics of the temples of Mitra- whose spells will, no doubt, give you some pause.

I have alliances as well. I have mad desert kozaki who have never forgotten the lion who led them into legendry. I have the black tribes of the south where an old friend rules an empire of his own and the name of Amra has yet to be forgotten. I have the Thieves' Guild of Tarantia, now known as the Red Brotherhood since that blonde she-wolf Valeria took the Rat Throne from its former master (with no small assistance, mind you). I have the Assassyns Guilde as well. They were troublesome in my earlier days, but I pay them well and they serve me well.

I have my own blade, the Sword of the Phoenix, and it has already slain the demons of one sorcerer. And the head of that spell caster is now my drinking cup. I gave his ring to the pigs.

You have magic, but as I understand it, I have something known as SR and it is not inconsiderable at my level of achievement. And, as I understand it, you must rest and study to gain your spells. Sleep comes hard to a beseiged man. Trust me, I know. The stench of the dead and waste catapulted at your tower walls and the accompanying flies, rats, and fleas will likely be enough to cause you a certain lack of concentration. And a raining tempest of Bossonian arrows definitely will.

Of course, you could just face me man-to-man, weapon-to-weapon, without your magic. However, given that your skills with a weapon do not match mine own and that you are specialized in either a long stick or a kitchen knife, (so your vorpal sword is of less use to you!) I do not think you will do that. Besides, I have few wizards with any real blood in their shallow veins!

Perhaps, now, your wager seems more boastful to you, wizard? To be sure, you might still win- I have seen what magic can do!- but I guarantee you that you will, by Crom's bloody axe, have a fight on your hands!
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

I can take a hint. I'll slowly back away from the large angry one brandishing the very sharp steel.

You are wise for a man with a skinny elf as his avatar! :twisted:
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Re: A question...

Post by mbeacom »

REHowardfanatic wrote:
I can take a hint. I'll slowly back away from the large angry one brandishing the very sharp steel.

You are wise for a man with a skinny elf as his avatar! :twisted:
Skinny yes, but very quick, and hard to make contact with as I flee in terror!
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

(Okay, so I read the details now... I ranted first, but, so! I am a barbarian! I speak with exclamations and usually in ALL CAPS! Even at work! Besides it was fun!

I definitely agree with the marketing cynicism statements. As does my queen, a former marketer mass communicator herself, now Queen of Aquilonia by my side.

I do have to say the mention of PTSD players strikes a chord with me and is a fine point. Every military guy I have ever met was a gamer (And I went to a military college and taught at a military private school). Fie on WOTC for not including them!

And, I guess it is fair to say that, as a bloodthirsty savage, conqueror, and layer of many scantily-clad wenches, my own minority was excluded via unmentionability (and incompatibility with their wild, over-the-top power level) from playing D&D Next. I hope that Troll Lords will consent to let me play Castles and Crusades!)

All that said, as a note to the less barbaric out there- do not feel excluded from playing a game just because you do not find yourself specifically mentioned. After all, I believe FATAL mentioned everyone in existence and managed to insult every one of us! Thus, being mentioned is perhaps not as grand as it seems.)
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

mbeacom wrote: Skinny yes, but very quick, and hard to make contact with as I flee in terror!
HAH! :lol:
By Crom, I like this one! Wench! Bring this pointy-eared man an ale and make it stout!
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Re: A question...

Post by koralas »

Arduin wrote:
koralas wrote:Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time.
Be definition, that then is NOT a scientific Theory. Those who would proclaim them as such are not actual scientists. By definition.
So then you believe that many Theories, such as the Theory of the Big Bang and the Theory of Evolution is not a proper scientific Theories? There is no method by which we can adequately test these Theories, yet they are accepted scientific truths. Yes there is evidence that may point to the proper conclusion, the background radiation of the Big Bang, and the fossil record (though there are large gaps), but we cannot truly test these Theories in a lab. In fact, to make the Big Bang and size of the Universe work, scientists now postulate that the early Universe breaks the universal speed limit and expands faster than the speed of light. Many experiments trying to find a single celled organism form a multi-cellular organism, yet they start with altered Yeast so it is returned to a single cell state, then to help "speed time" only those showing the propensity towards multi-cellular progression are selected to begin the next generation. Yet this is an artificial selection not natural selection. Just two examples of how data is often manipulated when adequate testing is not possible, and still the Theory is accepted as scientific truth.

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Re: A question...

Post by Litzen Tallister »

Oh dear, we're arguing science definitions again. :D Regarding the idea of WotC's move being motivated by a desire for inclusivity or a marketing ploy: the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. No doubt, someone high up at WotC (or Hasbro, perhaps) has marketing data supporting their decision. But, there are certainly plenty of examples of people making decisions in either direction regardless of PR data in the recent past (see Chick-Fil-A). Of course, that's anecdotal evidence, but in the interest of staying out of science debating, I'll leave that one be (what with being a squishy social scientist and all). Regardless of the corporate level decision, the end result of there being more inclusive presentation in media (movies, comics, rpgs, and so on) is people feeling more included.

And as an aside, as one of the inclusivity persons, I didn't mention inclusion with regard to the differently-abled (how's that for a PC term?), ethnicity, etc. because we weren't talking about inclusion of all in this topic, we were talking about inclusion with regard to gender, sex, and orientation. I'd be happy to take up inclusion with those areas of diversity in another topic. ;)

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Re: A question...

Post by Julian Grimm »

Ok so, I'm not a scientists as I tend to stay on the Spiritual/Philosophical side of things so I can't add anything meaningful to the conversation.

What I will add is that some nails were hit on the head above me. First, like pink stuff, the LGBT bandwagon is the current fad of the day. There's money to make from it and the corps know this. Thus anything that they can do to ride the wave is guaranteed cash. Second, the definition of being truly inclusive/Diversive was laid out very well by REHowardfanatic. He was spot on in this assessment and wins the thread for this. Finally, the discussion came up at my last gaming session and a person that was there, who is gay, said that he found it unnecessary and distasteful and anyone who plays the game knows this is possible already.

So again, it boils down a PR stunt that is the culmination of things WOTC has already done. From 3e on you have a very PC mindset creeping into the game that breaks the neutrality that D&D should have (In my opinion). From terms like 'Fisherperson' to making FR Novels be about progressive issues to the orcs are people too fad; WOTC has subtly turned D&D into their soapbox. It is quite a switch from the high fantasy and swords & sorcery roots of the game.

What I feel WOTC should have done would be follow the trends that certain TV shows have started in making believable and viable LGBT (Hate the term by the way) characters for novels and as NPCs. If you look at shows like American Horror Story and Torchwood you see how this can be done. Both shows had completely believable gay characters that did not push their lifestyle in the forefront. They were presented as regular people and you had sympathy for the characters. For example Captain Jack Harkness from Torchwood is a very believable character with no pushing of his lifestyle. He just is.

If I may go so far to say this (Mods delete this section if I am wrong), the biggest way to create tolerance is to follow the above examples. Show that LGBT people are just as regular as the rest of us. Present them as part of society and something that is not to be feared. Do not add in token characters, stereotypes and be preachy. Just let it be and see what happens.
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Re: A question...

Post by DMSamuel »

Julian Grimm wrote:...the biggest way to create tolerance is to follow the above examples. Show that LGBT people are just as regular as the rest of us. Present them as part of society and something that is not to be feared. Do not add in token characters, stereotypes and be preachy. Just let it be and see what happens.
This wins the thread. This is the way of true progress. Show people in the majority that the people who belong to minority groups are "just regular people."

As to the science stuff - I've said all I want to say on that - this isn't a science thread and the science is way off topic. I was having a bit of fun with the debate/conversation, but it has been made clear that this is the wrong place for it and I feel if it goes any further it will be on the edge of offending people and there is no reason to do that in this thread, which is, as I said, not about science or scientific theory.

Carry on....
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

By Hitler's Hairy Harem!

(There. Hitler has been mentioned. Can we all shut up now and play the game?)
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Re: A question...

Post by Zudrak »

serleran wrote:
Arduin wrote:
koralas wrote:Of course then there are Theories that are accepted scientific truths that cannot be adequately tested either for lack of technology, or the lack of sufficient time.
Be definition, that then is NOT a scientific Theory. Those who would proclaim them as such are not actual scientists. By definition.
I like to call those... Rumors.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A question...

Post by Zudrak »

mbeacom wrote:
Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: As someone trained scientifically and employed in marketing, I can say, this kind of thing has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with science.
Exactly. As I stated earlier in thread. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. My S/O is a top PR Professioal. I passed this by her and she thinks that WotC was very brave in doing this in a product also aimed at kids as it could backfire.
I understand your S/Os way of thinking but I feel pretty confident that WotC made the "correct" marketing decision here. D&D is an utterly secular product and this issue has been defined (rightly or wrongly) as a mostly religious issue (the assumption being that outside of a religious context, no one should be bothered by any of it). D&D has been largely rejected by religious sectors of society and to some degree, even the non-religious traditional values sectors (meaning they have little to lose in those markets). Keep in mind, we're living in an era where the President has officially "come around" on these issues (meaning it's politically safe to finally admit to what he has always believed), we've been introduced to the "proud" Whopper from Burger King and where even The Boy Scouts have switched course. It's a pretty safe time for this kind of thing. When politicians feel it's safe to change their positions, public critical mass has been reached. Also, I've seen research that shows there is a greater downside potential to be shamed by the LGBT community than to be rejected by traditionalists who are not nearly as boycotty as they used to be. Perhaps though to the uninitiated it comes across as bold. In any event, expect to see a lot more of it in the future. I've seen multiple national ad-campaigns looking for ways to embrace this type of messaging.
Bah. Tired of this misconception. Anyone reading Dragon magazine back in the 80's would have seen the article written by a minister who plays. I am sick and tired of both extremes gunning for bear when there are plenty of us in the middle, including the late E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
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Re: A question...

Post by Julian Grimm »

Zudrak wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: As someone trained scientifically and employed in marketing, I can say, this kind of thing has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with science.
Exactly. As I stated earlier in thread. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. My S/O is a top PR Professioal. I passed this by her and she thinks that WotC was very brave in doing this in a product also aimed at kids as it could backfire.
I understand your S/Os way of thinking but I feel pretty confident that WotC made the "correct" marketing decision here. D&D is an utterly secular product and this issue has been defined (rightly or wrongly) as a mostly religious issue (the assumption being that outside of a religious context, no one should be bothered by any of it). D&D has been largely rejected by religious sectors of society and to some degree, even the non-religious traditional values sectors (meaning they have little to lose in those markets). Keep in mind, we're living in an era where the President has officially "come around" on these issues (meaning it's politically safe to finally admit to what he has always believed), we've been introduced to the "proud" Whopper from Burger King and where even The Boy Scouts have switched course. It's a pretty safe time for this kind of thing. When politicians feel it's safe to change their positions, public critical mass has been reached. Also, I've seen research that shows there is a greater downside potential to be shamed by the LGBT community than to be rejected by traditionalists who are not nearly as boycotty as they used to be. Perhaps though to the uninitiated it comes across as bold. In any event, expect to see a lot more of it in the future. I've seen multiple national ad-campaigns looking for ways to embrace this type of messaging.
Bah. Tired of this misconception. Anyone reading Dragon magazine back in the 80's would have seen the article written by a minister who plays. I am sick and tired of both extremes gunning for bear when there are plenty of us in the middle, including the late E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Agreed. I wonder how many would be surprised to know that my comments, especially the one quoted by DMSamuel, was written by a white, Christian, hillbilly from Missouri? :lol:
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Re: A question...

Post by Buttmonkey »

DMSamuel wrote:So jealous.... So jealous... I have heard great things about James Ward games!
So, you like piles and piles of dead PCs? ;)

The one thing that really stuck with me (besides the deadliness of his games) was the way Jim talks to the players in a disappointed kindergarten teacher's voice. "Oh, you took a cookie from the cookie jar before dinner? That's a shame. Give me your character sheet."
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Re: A question...

Post by tylermo »

I see you've played in a Jim Ward game. Love his style. Been too busy working cons to play in his games anymore. He ran his Monty Haul's Lesser Tower of Doom at North Texas RPG Con. His table was over by the Troll booth. Was nice to watch him in action again. ;)

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Re: A question...

Post by DMSamuel »

Buttmonkey wrote:
DMSamuel wrote:So jealous.... So jealous... I have heard great things about James Ward games!
So, you like piles and piles of dead PCs? ;)

The one thing that really stuck with me (besides the deadliness of his games) was the way Jim talks to the players in a disappointed kindergarten teacher's voice. "Oh, you took a cookie from the cookie jar before dinner? That's a shame. Give me your character sheet."
LOL - yeah, it is a style that I would find lots of fun at a convention, but it would probably drive me crazy in a home campaign - but maybe not, I'll never really know. Either way, gaming with a legend like Jim Ward would be fantastic for me.
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Re: A question...

Post by Acacius »

Loving the new 6th printing of the C&C PHB. Not happy that WotC decided that biology was a "notion" but then, after the 4e debacle and the rise of PF and retro games I think D&D is a dead system, at least the D&D that wotc makes. I am always down for some B/E Basic or AD&D.

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Re: A question...

Post by mbeacom »

Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote:Also, extrapolating holiday data to the broader market timeframe is very difficult.
It was about buyers for the age groups in question. Not difficult at all. I read the survey. I've built consumer product companies myself up to $70 million/year. The % of parents in that age group who are opposed to D&D type games is almost non-existent know (don't know if you knew that fact). They survey data was clear. Ya may not like it but, there it is. ;)
Seems like Paizo is very "brave" too. As they've just released (and are heavily marketing) their first openly transgendered iconic.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg ... rdra-Geltl

Or more likely, they're looking at the same data WotC is (industry specific data). This is typical bandwagon marketing. Gotta keep up with the Jones'. Can't let WotC be more inclusive. "Oh, you mention it's ok to RP as LGBT? Well, guess what, we're gonna make one of our Iconics transgendered. Beat that WotC!" LIke I said, this is a race to be most inclusive. Because doing so gets a huge amount of publicity and word of mouth. I wish it were brave. I wish it were motivated by true desires for inclusivity. But as has been said on here multiple times (and perhaps best by REH, this is not true inclusivity. This is self interest marketing. The proof is that it's working.
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Wow. All this bravery.

What a drag.


:twisted:

(My sword will split the skull of the heteronormal and the homoabnormal equally. How is that for egalitarianism?)
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Julian Grimm
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Re: A question...

Post by Julian Grimm »

Looks like Paizo and WOTC are going to be seeing who can up the ante more while exploiting more groups for marketing purposes. And again I find myself being brought closer to C&C and Midwest game design. My only advice for the trolls is to keep C&C fun, neutral and based in the hobby's roots.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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Re: A question...

Post by alcyone »

What is Midwest game design?
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Jyrdan Fairblade
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Re: A question...

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

The thing about this is that no matter the skepticism, cynicism, apathy, or even outright prejudice of those criticizing these moves, what D&D and Pathfinder have done will still be more important to those people that need this inclusivity the most.

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Re: A question...

Post by Julian Grimm »

Aergraith wrote:What is Midwest game design?
I would characterize it as a design style originating in the midwest with the original Lake Geneva and Milwaukee campaigns, It sticks to the classic roots of fantasy, stays neutral on political subjects and lets many things be decided by groups and Game Masters. This is in contrast to what I would call 'West Coast' design that is almost a direct opposite to the above. The origins of which could actually be traced to White Wolf but was later embraced by companies like WOTC and Paizo.

Examples of Midwest Design would include:

Original to AD&D(1e)

Castles & Crusades

Swords & Wizardry

BFRPG

Examples of 'West-Coast Design" would be:

World of Darkness (Though originating in Georgia)

WOTC D&D

Pathfinder

Exalted

Blue Rose

Of course these are my terms and how I would categorize it.
Lord Skystorm

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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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Re: A question...

Post by alcyone »

Politically neutral in this case seems to mean GLBT people are okay as long as we don't discuss them or portray them in our games. The tenor of this whole thread seems to have some kind of dog whistle double meaning.

I thought WoTCs attempt was awkward, but I start twitching when I see people getting upset about the general sentiment; the idea that as far as we can say such a thing in a game book, this is a safe place for all types of people. Whatever you've heard about our community, our ideal is that you are welcome at our table. The language is about what your character can do, but make no mistake, we are also talking about the people sitting around the table.

I don't expect TLG to respond in kind. I think it's ok to not spell this stuff out. I'll say though, when I recruit for a game, don't be afraid to play at my table because you are GLBT, a woman, a pagan, or even a Christian conservative. Your character's sexuality probably won't come up much, but for what it's worth, you can be whatever you want and we'll neither make light of it or ignore it. That's my standard going forward anyway.

I asked what was meant by Midwest design, because I wanted to head off any idea of "we're all ok over here, but those guys are nuts", especially where this begins to look like secret code for "go away", because one thing this hobby doesn't need is to exclude people. Because I play C&C I don't want to get lumped in with a particular worldview that I don't share.
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Re: A question...

Post by REHowardfanatic »

This current trend in media, in general, and D&D/gaming, in specific, has nothing to do with inclusivity. I thought that point had been made and agreed upon. Far, far too many diverse groups were left out of the grandiose bull&h!t sidebar for that to be true even by the most liberal of all possible definitions.

Oh-- Do not call others prejudiced because you do not agree with them. It is prejudiced to do so.

This is my last post on this thread, which I started. As a joke. Thank you, intenet for proving once again that you possess all the humor of a bloody knife being wiped on a dead girl's dress.
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