15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world burn

All topics including role playing games, board games, etc., etc.
User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world burn

Post by Acacius »

Between accusations that drow were made black skinned and matriarchal for racist and sexist reasons and what not I really really think a massive meteorite hitting the earth may be a good idea. When did D&D become over run by people who actively hate Gygax and everything he ever wrote?

Maybe this is a age issue.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by serleran »

People hate what they do not understand. I blame education. And morons. Of course, most "older" generations feel those coming after are less intelligent or capable, despite advancements, primarily of the technological kind. Perhaps if gaming was a technical skill... but it is art and art is never evolving, just mutating.

User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Acacius »

Maybe. I had never heard anyone accuse Gygax of racism based on the skin color of the drow before... I admit it was a bit unsettling. I do not know if I hate all of these people claiming D&D is racist or sexist or both but I admit to not understanding them at all. I have played a lot of D&D with a lot of different people and never once did I feel like the skin color of a fantasy race was commentary on real life views. It almost seems like the people wotc are courting with 5e are the same people who hate everything about D&D, at least D&D as I remember it. The hate erol otis, they think paladins should be any alignment, they think it is racist that drow are evil...

WTF?

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by serleran »

Part of the concern, from my point of view, is misappropriation of credit. Gary did not invent the drow. Nor most of the monsters in AD&D -- almost all can be found in a mythological baseline from one or more cultures. He (and the rest of the first team) did write them for gaming uses, but that is very different from "creating."

Because they are derivatives of real world thinking, perhaps the complaint should be that, despite thousands of years of "evolution" and "social change," nothing has, in fact, changed.

And that is assuming one believes that "black / dark" must equate to evil. It has, did, and does in some places. And not necessarily because of racism / ethnicity... rather straight-up symbolism.

User avatar
DMSamuel
Red Cap
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 am
Location: Downstate NY
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by DMSamuel »

That is why I stay away from the WotC boards. Many people that post there are full of vitriol and they let it spew all over the boards. And they aren't there to have a decent conversation or trade ideas, they just want to sh*t on what other people like and tell them how bad they are for liking it. Not everyone mind you, but it is the most vocal group, so...

Having said that, I will say that the drow as dark evil race = racist is NOT a new thing. This has been an ongoing sparring competition for at least a decade.
~DMSamuel
---
Website: RPG Musings
Actual Play Podcast (5e): D&DeBrief

User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Acacius »

While I can agree that the name drow is a real world mythological creature it is a fact that drow as Gygax wrote them in D3 are absolutely a unique creation of the Gygax and do not resemble any real world equivalents.

Maybe i have been living a sheltered life, had no idea drow were such a contentious subject.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

Acacius wrote:Maybe. I had never heard anyone accuse Gygax of racism based on the skin color of the drow before... I admit it was a bit unsettling. I do not know if I hate all of these people claiming D&D is racist or sexist or both but I admit to not understanding them at all. I have played a lot of D&D with a lot of different people and never once did I feel like the skin color of a fantasy race was commentary on real life views. It almost seems like the people wotc are courting with 5e are the same people who hate everything about D&D, at least D&D as I remember it. The hate erol otis, they think paladins should be any alignment, they think it is racist that drow are evil...

WTF?
The insanity can be traced back to the public EDU system. It has really gotten bad. The PC crap they teach. Our neighboring school system is teaching 13 yr olds violent BDSM techniques against the opposite sex as a mandatory course. They also teach the type of garbage you just ran into (of course not by name against EGG).
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Vicarious Pendrake
Skobbit
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:08 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Vicarious Pendrake »

Screw the social justice warriors at wotc they don't even play the game.

Vicarious Pendrake
Skobbit
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:08 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Vicarious Pendrake »

not that it matters 5th ed is going to suck due to this kind of mindset effecting wizards already crappy decisions.

User avatar
Zudrak
Lore Drake
Posts: 1377
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Audubon, NJ

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Zudrak »

Point out that the drow are not real and that no one on Earth has jet-black skin (as opposed to humanity's deep browns up to light beiges or cream colors, depending upon melanin levels) and you *might* make some leeway, but there are contentious people online who have nothing better to do than be angry and vent and be angry and vent ad nauseum. You cannot contend with unbridled emotion. You can only try to ignore it and move on.
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

I don't like it much when politics of either extreme get interleaved with posts about role playing games.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

DMMike
Unkbartig
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:38 pm

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by DMMike »

Gary's whole point about drow was that they were supposed to be a "negative image" of pale black haired High Elves. Thus, they had black skin and white hair. I don't know if the females as larger than males was a continuation of this or based more on the physiology of spiders but it does carry through.

As for D&D=racist, that's not limited to the drow or even the past decade. I've heard the argument for orcs, goblins, kobolds.... The very idea of any race being "made" evil upsets some people. Odd that you never hear people upset about mandatory "good" races though. ;)

Which of course ignores the main point of its your game. You want drow to all be good, then do so. You want unicorns to be baby-eating, bull-buggering, nun-trampling creatures then go for it. Its your table. <shrug>

Serleran's right, its an art and based on the view of the artist. Which is why it irks me to hear people gush about new games being better than old ones because they're "State of the Art"(TM). This is a paper & pen RPG, not a stereo! Most "new" ideas have an analog in some game or house rule from BITD. Its just the dissemination of said idea that's different today.

Mike
The Save for Half Podcast: Old School RPGs Reviewed
http://www.saveforhalf.com

Victorious: Steampunk Adventure in the Age of SuperMankind
http://www.victoriousrpg.com

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

Aergraith wrote:I don't like it much when politics of either extreme get interleaved with posts about role playing games.
True. But I don't know a single RPG forum where Freedom loving, Natural rights types run rampant screeching like the lib, P.C. types do. The later is FAR more the "norm" than the former.

Unless, you know of a bunch of major RPG forums I've never seen...
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

Everyone's ear is tuned to a different "screech". Reducing people to "types" is a shortcut and makes us easier to divide and conquer. I can usually find a point to agree with here and there with just about anybody but can't go along with these convenient belief packages that get sold along with these political affiliations.
Anyway, if we are going to start having political or religious conversations on this board, I'd rather they go into some subforum that doesn't get listed in "Active Topics", but just not having them at all would be better.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

Aergraith wrote:Everyone's ear is tuned to a different "screech".
Yep, that's why I asked you if knew of any other RPG forum sites dominated by the opposite "extreme" (your term) than was being referenced by the OP. To my knowledge (which is fairly deep) they don't exist.

No examples forthcoming confirms that.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

Nope, I guess role playing forums in general just aren't for you, we are all a bunch of screeching PC types.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

Aergraith wrote:Nope, I guess role playing forums in general just aren't for you, we are all a bunch of screeching PC types.

:lol:

Way to totally not read and understand a simple question. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

Yeah, I am sure that is how everyone here sees that.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

Aergraith wrote:Yeah, I am sure that is how everyone here sees that.

I have no idea. Still waiting for an answer to the question I asked... But, I can see that having a sane conversation isn't on your agenda.

Peace out
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

REHowardfanatic
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:59 am
Location: McEwen, TN
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by REHowardfanatic »

I love the title of this post, but I do think a moderator should stamp this one down because I made a one line joke and got treated like an @$$hole for all but begging people to stop talking about gender issues/politics on the thread, so I expect Great Wyrm levels of flaming!

I agree with you 100%, but the world of the internet is not going to change its wee mind and the only thing it will prance up off its feinting couch to do is flame anyone/everyone who questions it or disagrees with it-- no matter why or how reasonable they are being. And with no notice to the irony inherent of ridiculing, attacking, or savaging someone who is different from themselves (my favorite part, really).

That said, let me dig my hole, because I just can't resist (Mind you- I am not saying I am right. I am saying I have an opinion, so take this as that).

I agree completely with the despair over modern political-ness, but I'm not sure all of the blame does lie with public education. To be certain, education is not what it used to be. Most of the younger generation I have met (a massive number, really) know a lot of facts, but have little ability to analyze or discern. They are taught that such is an exclusively personal experience and therefore there is no reason to learn how to analyze. To explain better: there is no reason to learn how to undertsand the deeper meanings and symbolism in a work of art or literature because the only meaning such can possibly have is that which the viewer or reader assigns to it. This is a ridiculous fallacy, but it is an easy one to teach. (However, in their defense- most do realize something untowards is going on and they catch on extremely quick if you explain it to them).

And the inability to understand deeper/hidden aggendas is to the benefit of the worst, wealthiest segments of our population (as it has always been).

Honestly, though, it takes a lot of horse$h!t to filth up the stables to the Herculean levels we are currently experiencing. Education and the younger generation alone cannot bear all of the burden of modern stupidity. Plenty of grown adults are just as stupid! It really takes everything in the culture becoming hoplelessly mired in the pointless political debates of the "leadership" of the nation. You can't even eat a hamburger without it being a political statement these days. Or play a game, appearantly.

As the 24-hour news cycle has come to dominate our information, our politicians have had to create louder and more ridiculous levels of noise to justify their jobs and to get themselves some attantion (and thus, votes). After all, any publicity is good publicity! So, they trend towards radical extremes of rhetoric. All the while, even a cursory glance through their actions reveal very, very few differences. In other words, they speak differently, but act alike. Thus, they "advertise"-- to get people to believe the lie they have to sell it. That is why everything is politics, politics, politics these days. It all boils down to viral marketing selling us a government-for-profit. Yay us.

Aw, fv<k !t-- let's watch the world burn!!
Flaming is the alignment language of the internet.

If you like DC Heroes, come check out my blog:
http://mayfairexponentialrpg.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Arduin »

REHowardfanatic wrote:
Aw, fv<k !t-- let's watch the world burn!!
Which is starting in Europe as we type. Don't walk into the 'burbs in Paris, you suddenly enter a 3rd world crime pit. The city is still relatively safe and nice. Not for long though.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

REHowardfanatic
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:59 am
Location: McEwen, TN
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Arduin wrote:
REHowardfanatic wrote:
Aw, fv<k !t-- let's watch the world burn!!
Which is starting in Europe as we type. Don't walk into the 'burbs in Paris, you suddenly enter a 3rd world crime pit. The city is still relatively safe and nice. Not for long though.

Sorry to hear that.
Flaming is the alignment language of the internet.

If you like DC Heroes, come check out my blog:
http://mayfairexponentialrpg.blogspot.com/

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Treebore »

I only go to three forums now a days, and none of them are the "BIG" ones. Too many negative jerk offs on them.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
mbeacom
Ulthal
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by mbeacom »

I don't like to get into the "sides" of this stuff, because there lies only frustration and sadness.

I will agree with the OP on the WotC forums though. I get curious and hop back on about every 6 months or so and every time, I'm completely and utterly dejected with what I find. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that 9 out of 10 threads there devolve into nonsense argument and pissing matches. So yeah, your subject line on this thread is absolutely 100% spot on.
Witty Quote Pending
-Someone

User avatar
seskis281
Lore Drake
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Manitowoc WI
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by seskis281 »

In real life I am very politically active and very opinionated.

In the gaming community and indeed online much less so - after all, does it affect the cost of a pint of ale at the Green Dragon Inn in Greyhawk?

I will say there are a few rare times where something in the RPG world almost demands some comment - there was something published that overtly celebrated violent rape. I am very liberal but dragging in drow, orcs or other fantasy races into a socio-political discussion of the real world is pretty ludicrous. I don't think its wrong to discuss how art representations (something I've brought up) might affect the appeal of the brand to new players nor is it really that "political."

I might suggest one thing though - with respect, if we want to steer clear of those sort of ideological battles the best thing is to just leave them on other boards... even starting threads with the premise of "who thinks this is ridiculous?" brings that flame over and asks us to start arguing.

And in the end I'd rather argue here about the merits of using 10-15 as an alternative to the challenge base.

:)
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Dreamer of Ilshara
Lands of Ilshara: http://johnwright281.tripod.com

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

@OP: I haven't been to the WoTC forums in ages, but I imagine if there is a lot of what I think you are talking about, sort of professional indignation on behalf of others, maybe it's coming from people from RPG.net. IMO things have gotten out of hand over there.

@Tree: Well, exactly. I come here, odd74, osrgaming.net, occasionally drop into dragonsfoot, wherever they still talk about playing D&D. I know it gets harder every year; after 40 years it's pretty much a solved problem. Still, we manage it most of the time.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by alcyone »

seskis281 wrote: And in the end I'd rather argue here about the merits of using 10-15 as an alternative to the challenge base.

:)
Agreed.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by Acacius »

seskis281 wrote:
And in the end I'd rather argue here about the merits of using 10-15 as an alternative to the challenge base.

:)
Same here.

User avatar
finarvyn
Global Moderator
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by finarvyn »

I've been a member at the WotC forum for years and I've gotten to the point where I really dislike the WotC boards nowadays.

(1) Their most recent software is really a pain to naviagate. Takes me a long time to actually open up sections of the board and even longer to get back after I post something.

(2) They actually have too much traffic. If I post something and come back a few hours later, it's typically fallen from the first page already and is hard to find.

(3) Content is poorly organized. They used to have a section for pre-3E stuff, then dumped hundeds of 3E posts in when it became "out of print" so you couldn't find any old-school content any more.

(4) Folks there are strongly opinionated and loud about it. Whatever the issue, whatever stance you take, there is someone there waiting to pounce.

Not so friendly, not easy to navigate, not as much fun as it used to be there. :(
Marv / Finarvyn
Lord Marshall, Earl of Stone Creek, C&C Society
Just discovered Amazing Adventures and loving it!
MA1E WardenMaster - Killing Characters since 1976, MA4E Playtester in 2006.
C&C Playtester in 2003, OD&D player since 1975

User avatar
DMSamuel
Red Cap
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 am
Location: Downstate NY
Contact:

Re: 15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world bu

Post by DMSamuel »

The only two boards I visit regularly are this one and RPGGeek.com - I visit each daily (several times per day most days, actually) and I find both to be very friendly. I am not afraid to state an opinion about a game or something important to me on either board. I usually watch a board for several months before I create an account and start participating. There is not a huge C&C following on RPG Geek, so I get my C&C fix here and I go there to discuss most other games. These are the only two forums I can stand, the others are... crap.

The list of gaming sites/forums I no longer visit is long... WotC and RPG.net are two on that list. I never really posted on either one because some of the loudest people on there are so toxic.
~DMSamuel
---
Website: RPG Musings
Actual Play Podcast (5e): D&DeBrief

Locked