Troll Lords and C&C

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Celticgamer
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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Celticgamer »

Persimmon wrote:Some Asian-oriented stuff would be great. I liked the 1st edition Kara Tur boxed set, though it had its flaws. Didn't like when they tried to mash up Rokugan with Oriental Adventures. For me, keeping the cultures separate is key. I hated how they mixed up Japanese, Chinese, and Korean names and Romanization systems. But I am a professor of Asian history in my day job so it's a sore spot with me. And the original Oriental Adventures helped send me on my career path so it certainly wasn't all bad!
I agree, being a Celtic scholar and teacher/professor as well. So many games have ruined cultures by misrepresenting them and not trying to understand them when they write about them in their books. Oriental Adventures made an impression on people but it also messed up everything it tried to honor. I know it was attempting to plant Asian cultures in a Fantasy environment, but it never appeared certain what it wanted to do. You had a parallel career path to mine apparently, but mine was towards Celtic/Arthurian Studies due to certain games instead! You can make sure that I will keep each group to its own as I had before in the Codices, it is only the proper thing to do.

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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Treebore »

Celticgamer wrote:
Persimmon wrote:Some Asian-oriented stuff would be great. I liked the 1st edition Kara Tur boxed set, though it had its flaws. Didn't like when they tried to mash up Rokugan with Oriental Adventures. For me, keeping the cultures separate is key. I hated how they mixed up Japanese, Chinese, and Korean names and Romanization systems. But I am a professor of Asian history in my day job so it's a sore spot with me. And the original Oriental Adventures helped send me on my career path so it certainly wasn't all bad!
I agree, being a Celtic scholar and teacher/professor as well. So many games have ruined cultures by misrepresenting them and not trying to understand them when they write about them in their books. Oriental Adventures made an impression on people but it also messed up everything it tried to honor. I know it was attempting to plant Asian cultures in a Fantasy environment, but it never appeared certain what it wanted to do. You had a parallel career path to mine apparently, but mine was towards Celtic/Arthurian Studies due to certain games instead! You can make sure that I will keep each group to its own as I had before in the Codices, it is only the proper thing to do.
Rokugan didn't misrepresent anything. It never tried to represent anything but a mish mash of cultural elements from the Orient, with the ideal of the Samurai being first and foremost. So that alement of Japan is the heart of it. Qín The Warring States RPG tries to represent China during the 6 Kingdoms period, and so much of that is only known as myth and legend, I think they did a rather good job with it. Oriental Adventures was much like Rokugan. They never claimed to be a RPG equivalent of the real thing. It was intentionally a mish mash of as many cool monsters and concepts of the Orient as possible, presented under one proverbial roof. The RPG's that have tried to represent actual Japan or China did a pretty good job of it, but none of them are D&D RPG's.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Treebore »

Persimmon wrote:Some Asian-oriented stuff would be great. I liked the 1st edition Kara Tur boxed set, though it had its flaws. Didn't like when they tried to mash up Rokugan with Oriental Adventures. For me, keeping the cultures separate is key. I hated how they mixed up Japanese, Chinese, and Korean names and Romanization systems. But I am a professor of Asian history in my day job so it's a sore spot with me. And the original Oriental Adventures helped send me on my career path so it certainly wasn't all bad!

So since your an actual historian of the Orient, I would presume you can appreciate the magnitude of its history, let alone myths and legends. Which is probably why the RPG's that have tried to replciate all of that for game purposes, focus on a very small time period, such as as China's Warring States period, or the first 100 years or so of Japans love affair with Bushido. So if the C&C version tries to cover everything, and do it justice, its going to be a multi volume endeavor, which would actually make me happy. I'll buy each and every one. Espeically any that cover the areas outside of China or Japan. Heck, if anyone wants to take on India, sign me up as a customer!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Go0gleplex »

If there is an credible Orient book or series dealing with the various cultures, I would be all over that myself. There is a lot of rich culture such as those that built Angor Watt, Nepal/Tibet, and such not even touched upon that really have some major potential.
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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by dachda »

I'd love to see the Asian cultures move from west to east. So starting with those Asian cultures which were bumped up against Europe and move East, so Mongolia, India, then China, and last Japan. But I know I'll be in the minority on this one.

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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Persimmon »

So since your an actual historian of the Orient, I would presume you can appreciate the magnitude of its history, let alone myths and legends. Which is probably why the RPG's that have tried to replciate all of that for game purposes, focus on a very small time period, such as as China's Warring States period, or the first 100 years or so of Japans love affair with Bushido. So if the C&C version tries to cover everything, and do it justice, its going to be a multi volume endeavor, which would actually make me happy. I'll buy each and every one. Espeically any that cover the areas outside of China or Japan. Heck, if anyone wants to take on India, sign me up as a customer!
Yes; it would be cool to see what they can do with it and I told Celticgamer (Brian Young, I presume) that I'd be willing to offer input on his efforts. Of course it need not be perfect; I do understand the fantasy aspect of it. But keep certain things discrete. In my home brew world, I actually made the "Asian" cultures the lands to the west of the great Egyptian/Arabian inspired desert realm and mountain range that separate them from the Celtic/Norse realms. Then I loosely modeled the major realms after Tang Dynasty-era China, with the smaller lands paying tribute to the Celestial Kingdom. These are the rough equivalents to Korea and Japan. To its southwest is a decadent land run by cults of yuan-ti and other snake type creatures, based on South Asian civilizations. The serpent folk forced the humans out centuries ago. So while I like some cultural consistency, there can be plenty of fantastic elements too.

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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by Lurker »

Well, this goes right along with my recent steppe barbarian lectures and the questions it led to.

With that, form my self study of classical and medieval history, I think I have a good enough handle on the "Person" area, and the Muslim world that conquered it. However .... my eyes glaze over when it gets to actual China and all the various kingdoms and dynasties (I'm sure an Asian expert says the same thing when it comes to late antiquity and medieval Europe). But, I am truly intrigued with the trans oxiana and the rest of the silk road societies, and from them the various steppe cultures - Turk & Mongol and the various iterations of them.

One thing (well 2 things) that surprised me completely was the 'great wall' for most of its existence wasn't truly made to hold out the barbarians. It like Rome's wall in England was more to control the flow of peoples and monitor (and tax trade) than an actual 'military strongpoint'. I should have expected it knowing what Hadrian's wall actually was for but I guess I was more focused on the hype and myth from the later wall than the historic reality of the wall.

Also, the wall itself and the cities' defenses were weak by 'European' standards. Where Rome and her decedents had heavy stone walls most of the cities in the trans oxiana through the silk road and even in China (at least in the lands adjutant to the Steppe) were tamped dirt and wood. ... It wasn't till after the Mongols conquered China, and then what 2 generations later expelled, that what had been a dirt and wood wall was rebuilt into what we have in China now as the great wall.

No wonder getting medieval Muslim engineers gave a huge boost to the Mongols ability to breach city defenses . And that explains why Mongols didn't advance further into Europe and into the middle East (in areas that were defended with stone and mortar keeps). *** I'm not saying the Mongol brutality and ability to divide people against themselves wouldn't have had an effect, but they were to the edge of their supply chain and to the edge of their technology skills.

So I guess I said all that to say this ... bring on the good mid / far and everything between east codexes !
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Re: Troll Lords and C&C

Post by maximus »

Lurker wrote:Well, this goes right along with my recent steppe barbarian lectures and the questions it led to.

With that, form my self study of classical and medieval history, I think I have a good enough handle on the "Person" area, and the Muslim world that conquered it. However .... my eyes glaze over when it gets to actual China and all the various kingdoms and dynasties (I'm sure an Asian expert says the same thing when it comes to late antiquity and medieval Europe). But, I am truly intrigued with the trans oxiana and the rest of the silk road societies, and from them the various steppe cultures - Turk & Mongol and the various iterations of them.

One thing (well 2 things) that surprised me completely was the 'great wall' for most of its existence wasn't truly made to hold out the barbarians. It like Rome's wall in England was more to control the flow of peoples and monitor (and tax trade) than an actual 'military strongpoint'. I should have expected it knowing what Hadrian's wall actually was for but I guess I was more focused on the hype and myth from the later wall than the historic reality of the wall.

Also, the wall itself and the cities' defenses were weak by 'European' standards. Where Rome and her decedents had heavy stone walls most of the cities in the trans oxiana through the silk road and even in China (at least in the lands adjutant to the Steppe) were tamped dirt and wood. ... It wasn't till after the Mongols conquered China, and then what 2 generations later expelled, that what had been a dirt and wood wall was rebuilt into what we have in China now as the great wall.

No wonder getting medieval Muslim engineers gave a huge boost to the Mongols ability to breach city defenses . And that explains why Mongols didn't advance further into Europe and into the middle East (in areas that were defended with stone and mortar keeps). *** I'm not saying the Mongol brutality and ability to divide people against themselves wouldn't have had an effect, but they were to the edge of their supply chain and to the edge of their technology skills.

So I guess I said all that to say this ... bring on the good mid / far and everything between east codexes !
I'm with you on this. I read everything I can get my hands on regarding the Huns, Bulgars, Gokturks, etc. Would love to see something of these societies put in gaming form. I had hoped TSR was going to expand on the Western part of Greyhawk (ie: Plains of the Paynims), but that was not to be.

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