Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

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Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by joela »

"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

That's one of the biggest arguments 4E advocates ask about Green Ronin, Kenzer, Paizo, and Troll Lords. It's a good question. Isn't making money -- a lot of it -- all your company is about?

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Post by Julian Grimm »

They probably don't want to become WOTC subsidiaries like the Games Stealing License makes you when you adopt 4e.
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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by Zebulon »

joela wrote:
"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

That's one of the biggest arguments 4E advocates ask about Green Ronin, Kenzer, Paizo, and Troll Lords. It's a good question. Isn't making money -- a lot of it -- all your company is about?

My opinion is that maybe Paizo would make more money with 4e than with Pathfinder: maybe. However, my opinion is also that Green Ronin and Troll Lords would lose money in abandoning their products in favor of 4e. The new products would not sell as well as their product lines (True20 and C&C respectively), then, people who want to play Freeport with 4e can do it easily, just they won't be able to buy a 4e companion to Freeport. Not a great loss when you think about all the 4e supplements WotC is already planning to release.

And then, there is the way the GSL is done. But I will thank WotC for it as it will limit the 3PP 4e flood.
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Post by Indigo Rose »

The best of all worlds is if your company can make money while providing a product or service that you created and that you believe in. That's truly the "American Dream", when you can start out from humble beginnings and become great through the product of your own work and imagination. Remember, once upon a time D&D was small and barely known; Gary created TSR because the bigger established companies like Avalon Hill didn't want to risk underwriting an unknown new type of game.

I think Troll Lord can make money *and* still stay true to their own vision of what roleplaying games should be.
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Post by Harry Joy »

You might also think giant robotic water snakes are a good idea too, but they're not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct5xe2Vnp6c

The little ones are fine just as they are.

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Post by Indigo Rose »

Harry Joy wrote:
You might also think giant robotic water snakes are a good idea too, but they're not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct5xe2Vnp6c

The little ones are fine just as they are.

Also just say "no" to robotic killer sea monkeys.
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Post by Harry Joy »

Indigo Rose wrote:
Also just say "no" to robotic killer sea monkeys.

I don't know if I can promise you that. I can try my best, but no promises.

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Post by Treebore »

The Trolls are about making money. When they were doing d20 they had day jobs. When they went C&C they quit their day jobs.

Who knows? Maybe the Trolls will repeat history.
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Post by seskis281 »

And this I can tell you from personally querying Steve on the subject...

The C&C stuff sells great. Their d20 lines never sold nearly as well.

The business logic that if the "guerilla" of the market does something, all others must do likewise was proven wrong in the d20 bubble bust (take a read on Steve's article in latest Crusader)...

Third-party publishers succeed more when they hit the markets that are not being satisfied by the major, not by trying to copy or emulate them.

Edit: And also, why drop an elegent, simple game mechanic that is far more transferable and usable with all sorts of publications both TLG and otherwise for a very restricted, single form mechanic set that isn't backward or sideways compatible with other systems?
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Because gaming would suck if there was only one system and everyone provided product support for that system.

I like variety.

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Post by Omote »

'Cause the Troll Lords do it big. They are badasses. They don't NEED no stinkin' 4E.

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Post by Go0gleplex »

*readies the inquisition* REPENT I SAY!!! REPENT!!! For the Trolls are LORDS and their system shall cast down the false giant that is 4e!

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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by huds0n »

joela wrote:
"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

That's one of the biggest arguments 4E advocates ask about Green Ronin, Kenzer, Paizo, and Troll Lords. It's a good question. Isn't making money -- a lot of it -- all your company is about?

I don't even know to begin to respond to this. I'm at a complete loss.
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Post by Deogolf »

Boy, that's a loaded question! If everyone was making money, where did they all go??

I don't mean to be an ass, but have you read what their philosophy towards gaming is? There's more to gaming than just 4ed. Besides, the scuttlebutt is that some of the companies that supported 3.0/3.5 are not making the switch. Why? Because of the GSL.

TLG is doing just fine and they don't need to sell their souls to make money. Okay, that might be a little much, but I think you get the picture.

We are not lemmings!
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Post by serleran »

1st - No, the Trolls aren't "all about making money." They are not a corporation, nor are they expunged from the masses of gamers from whence they came. They do what they do because it is what they enjoy - that is as simple as it gets.

2nd - having to wait months before you can officially support a new system means you are out months of revenue, and then more, because you cannot convert your old materials to the new - this means you are either all new (cost prohibitive - have to reprint everything, pay for new manuscripts, new art, new everything) or you stay "old" (perhaps lose customers.) You lose either way, unless you have your own thing to do.

And, there are other reasons but I won't go into them.

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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by Harry Joy »

huds0n wrote:
I don't even know to begin to respond to this. I'm at a complete loss.

Giant robotic water snakes. Or robotic killer sea monkeys. Both excellent choices.

hth

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Post by Zebulon »

Personally, I would be glad if only WotC produced 4e stuff, and 3PP stayed with their own OGL products. At least, I don't see my preferred publishers (GR and TL) doing 4e stuff any time soon.
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Post by Foxroe »

Why switch to 4ed? Wait for 4.5ed (you know it's coming)...
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Post by Treebore »

Foxroe wrote:
Why switch to 4ed? Wait for 4.5ed (you know it's coming)...
-Fox

You'll have a while to wait. I think the first year is 4.01, year two is 4.02, etc...

Or maybe they'll be going with 4.1, 4.2, and so on. So you would have to wait 5 to 50 years to see 4.5.
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Post by Foxroe »

Treebore wrote:
You'll have a while to wait. I think the first year is 4.01, year two is 4.02, etc...

Or maybe they'll be going with 4.1, 4.2, and so on. So you would have to wait 5 to 50 years to see 4.5.

True. Plus there's the security updates, the service packs, the Malicious Gamer Removal Tool, and those cool looking little add-ons that just make your game crash.
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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by cuchulainkevin »

[quote="joela"]"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

quote]

No.
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Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

Why would dropping Sieg rake in more money? I wouldn't think the poor fellow would take that very well...

Seriously, let WotC have 4e - I will be more than happy to see other rules systems flourish under other companies (including and especially C&C!).

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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by Taranthyll »

joela wrote:
"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

Have you taken a look at the GSL? Its pretty scary - if I were a publisher I wouldn't go near it. Among other things the clause that states that WotC can terminate the GSL without cause, which could potentially leave a publisher holding the bag (filled with a bunch of his product he can no longer sell), would scare me off all by itself and there are lots of other clauses that I wouldn't be comfortable with.

Furthermore, homogenization of the gaming industry would be a very bad thing. "One Game To Rule Them All..." would not be good for the hobby. A wide diversity of game systems that appeal to a myriad of interests and preferences is indicative of a robust and healthy gaming industry.

Vive la difference!

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Post by Indigo Rose »

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
Why would dropping Sieg rake in more money? I wouldn't think the poor fellow would take that very well...

I'll never drop Sieg! Never, ever! He's my very favorite gaming system...engine...mechanic...um, thingy! And he does great voices for NPCs, too, and helps around the house. Our cats love him, too!
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Post by Indigo Rose »

Harry Joy wrote:
I don't know if I can promise you that. I can try my best, but no promises.

Well, just remember that if they get out of hand, the deactivation interface module is hidden in the left buttcheek (according to the voice-activated Agency Guide To Villains handheld device).
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Post by seskis281 »

And, as an addendum, while certainly WotC will sell lots of books, the question is will it really be a "hit." Remember, they have also made this an extremely expensive product to make, and just stopping by my FLGS I asked how it's selling tonight and the answer is "kinda average - lot's of people sticking with what they've got." There's not going to be the quick sell-through and restock that occurred with 3.0 most likely.

So, in short, to the OP: don't assume that throwing away one's independence and creative control by signing that very dictatorial GSL will mean more money.

Oh, and I second the vote to not drop Sieg. I like his stuff, and he was the most gracious and helpful person several years ago in getting some of my stuff up on DF when he was still section editor over there. I was saddened that he and Indigo were not at LGGC so I could shake his hand and thank him!
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Post by sieg »

Glad to know that I (probably) won't be dropped anytime soon.
Though oddly enough, when C&C first came out I was accused by some rabid 1E folk of "Betraying" AD&D and the proof of my turncoat nature was that TLG bribed me by naming the "Siege Engine" after me.

No, really! Its what he said!
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Post by serleran »

You betrayed sieg-a.

*dice hum and get hotter*

[Om malarkey malarkey ummmm]

You betrayed sieg-a

*dice burn a hole through the Crown Royal dice bag*

[Om Gygax Mentzer Kuntz om]

I'm not seeing it.

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Re: Wouldn't Troll Lord make more money by dropping SIEGE?

Post by gideon_thorne »

joela wrote:
"Why doesn't third party provider switch to supporting 4E? Won't they make more money than supporting their current OGL system?"

That's one of the biggest arguments 4E advocates ask about Green Ronin, Kenzer, Paizo, and Troll Lords. It's a good question. Isn't making money -- a lot of it -- all your company is about?

No, cause the way the GSL is set up, it's not worth any money to be bent over and poked up the pooper.
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