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Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
With Rigon’s re-interest in modifying SS for a Star Wars game, and it’s lighting a fire for my rule tinkering juices, I’ve been thinking. That leads to me having ideas and questions. However, I don’t want to clog up the ‘rule idea/discussion’ thread with specific Jedi questions and examples. (That way that thread stays focused on more general adaptations, where this is focused on Jedi & Force specific items.

Before I go further, I’ll emphasize that it is focused on what is (well will eventually be) his home rules on this, so some things Won’t be RAW Thins like :

Rigon wrote:

...
1st: the Force will be based off of Psi, with Force abilities being Psi powers. Force Powers will be classified into 3 "schools" (Sense, Control, and Alter).

Each "school" will have 4 broad powers associated with it. The "schools" are just a way for Jedi to explain how they interact with the Force and has no game advantage.

The 12 Force Powers are:

Danger Sense (Sense), Empathy (Sense), Sensory Enhancements (Sense), Second Sight (Sense),

Lightsaber Control (Control), Physical Enhancements (Control), Telekinesis (Control), Energy Manipulation (Control),

Healing (Alter), Confusion (Alter), Telepathy (Alter), and Domination (Alter).

....

R-



However, I don’t want to limit the ideas and discussions here to just those specific modification, so, if you have an idea, thought, etc etc etc, please don’t hesitate to throw it into the wind here and see what comes back out.

Now for my first specific question/example. Picture SW I , Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the door of the battle ship, using the Light saber to cut through the door, and up roll the shielded attack droids. Blasters are fired, and deflected, but the 2 Jedi know they will be out gunned, so turn and sprint off at blinding speed. Then, next instance, you see them drop down 30 – 40 ft (maybe even further).

Now my question, what Jedi Powers did they use. If the above mentioned powers are the only ones usable, which of them were used, or was there a mix of them. Or, is there another power needed (but remember the desire to keep it generalized powers )

I know the answer from SW D6, but as this is a different game & Rigon wants to keep the Force a bit more generalized and simple here – which I agree with – so we can’t just default to that. But, The powers in that system would be – enhance physical abilities or enhance speed (I think the latter but may be worng), the drop is something like force jump.

So what works, what do you all say ???

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Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:43 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Personally, I think the RPG's have had it wrong from the very beginning. Not that I blame them, they could only go by what they saw in movies, or read in comics or books. Personally, I think there is no "levels" in "The Force". I also think there are no pre defined ways in which to use the force either. I think there is some natural limit to just how much a given individual can "tune into" the Force, and that is what determines not only what thy can do, but how often or how much they can do. In the prequels they tried to quantify this "attunement" with medicloreans (or however its spelled). So the more of these you had the more you could tune into and use the Force.

Notice, Jedi and Sith did not have "levels". How powerful you were was determined by how well you could tap into the force, and you were either very, very good at it, or you sucked, or most fell somewhere in between. Luke, Vader, etc... were obviously very powerful because they could tap into the Force the greatest amounts with relative ease. Force "sensitives" could pretty much only sense the Force around them and it being used, then Jedi and Sith were only trained if "the force is strong in this one", meaning they can tap into it in powerful ways.

So what I am getting at, how are you going to determine just how powerful a given Force character is gong to be? Roll it like an attribute? Roll 1d100 and the closer you get to 00 the more powerful you will be? Or do you want to use levels, and leave the door open to anyone who can tap into the force becoming a 20th level Master with enough training, practice, and experience?

Once that is clarified I think we could then move forward in determining a system for defining how the Force can be used/manipulated. I for one like how Rigon is going about this as well, because I think using the Force is far more of a "if you can imagine it, you can do it" power, rather than one that is only predefined by what others have learned to do. So a more general, somewhat ambiguous powers system is much more appropriate. In fact, I would take guidance from the Illusion school of magic far more than I would any of the more "solidly" defined schools, as an example.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:20 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Lurker: for your examples of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, they would have used these force powers in this order: lightsaber control (for the deflection bit), physical enhancement, and telekinesis.

Tree: for how I envision Force working, your strength in the Force will be based on your Psi score. So, if you have a Psi score of 4 and i have a Psi score of 10, I'd be more powerful.

I'm going to try put put together a working outline sometime this weekend. Just something to help me put together my SW supplement and to have a place to keep ideas/thoughts. I'll post it when I have it finished so you guys can see where I'm going.

R-

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Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Treebore wrote:
...

Once that is clarified I think we could then move forward in determining a system for defining how the Force can be used/manipulated. I for one like how Rigon is going about this as well, because I think using the Force is far more of a "if you can imagine it, you can do it" power, rather than one that is only predefined by what others have learned to do. So a more general, somewhat ambiguous powers system is much more appropriate. In fact, I would take guidance from the Illusion school of magic far more than I would any of the more "solidly" defined schools, as an example.


I really like this direction where you and Rigon are going with this in allowing the flexible use of the Force. Certainly the contract between Jedi and the Force could be re-negotiated from time to time based on circumstance and the Jedi's imagination.

So, not to complicate things in a game sense but just for thought purposes I wonder how a person could incorporate the idea that:

"Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

Can a person more easily draw on the life energy (or flow or Tao or whatever it is that cannot be described) in a lush place like Dagobah? If Yoda was standing in the parking lot of a big box strip mall would even he have to concentrate really hard to find it? haha Maybe some places ought to get a minus -5 in their Force checks.


Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:27 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Yeah, I've wondered that too, but even when they are on highly technological worlds with very little natural wildlife, they seem just as capable of tapping into the Force as they are anywhere else. So the connection to the rock and the ship I am guessing is just as important as any connection between things we consider to be alive. The Force truly is in "everything" and between everything. So all that really matters is how attuned to it you are.

I look forward to seeing your document, rigon.

Anyone else find it curious that the Trolls are putting the SS PDF at 50% off right now? Coincidence to our interest?

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:52 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Treebore wrote:

Personally, I think the RPG's have had it wrong from the very beginning. Not that I blame them, they could only go by what they saw in movies, or read in comics or books. Personally, I think there is no "levels" in "The Force". I also think there are no pre defined ways in which to use the force either. I think there is some natural limit to just how much a given individual can "tune into" the Force, and that is what determines not only what thy can do, but how often or how much they can do. In the prequels they tried to quantify this "attunement" with medicloreans (or however its spelled). So the more of these you had the more you could tune into and use the Force.

...


In that we agree my friend. Oh by the way ... I HATE the idea of medicloreans as a way to measure the access to the force ... I hate it almost as much as I hate Jar Jar ... Ok back on target ...

I agree with the idea we are chasing with Rigon on the force / psi as a score . Like I said before I thought about having it a full attribute. However, after reading the rules on how to raise a psi score, I don't think it is a point that needs to be debated. What is a point maybe 2 among friends ;)

Now, for use of the force. I'd argue it is skill plus experience on learning how to use it, focus your self, and through that grow and improve. In short it is like any other thing dealing in life and wisdom.

However, my weakness (in oh soooo many things) is that I can't think around corners ... so I have trouble seeing various ways to use bare bones force , or more accurately, seeing how I'd define how I'd use it or the steps from a to d .

That is the reason (well one of the reasons) behind this thread. For us to talk through and force me to start pieing the corners a bit more.

Penny - we could go lots of direction there. Is the force only around natural life, what of all those thousands of peoples in and around the strip mall living their lives and following their path. Would their life not be a source of the force despite the cement and buildings. Or what if the site in the swamp was a site that a rabid dog -well SW version of a dog - frenzied and infested 100s of animals that all in turn passed the sickness along and all died a horrid painful death. Boy that comes out more preachy than I mean for it to ... I could easily say the city block was a site of a nuclear accident - so is corrupted - or the swamp is the site that beneficial birds live that eat lice and parasites off other animals - so the force in the area is beneficial.

However, the mark I was aiming for (with tooo blunt of an arrow more than likely) is that in the vast majority of the places, the force will be there. However, the good/bad light/dark aspect may lean more one way or another.

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:40 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Treebore wrote:
I look forward to seeing your document, rigon.

Anyone else find it curious that the Trolls are putting the SS PDF at 50% off right now? Coincidence to our interest?

Maybe our interest, but more likely the new SW movie and all the hype around it. SS is already out there, so the Trolls don't have to wait to capitalize on it. Unlike any add on for AA.

R-

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:26 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Rigon wrote:
Treebore wrote:
I look forward to seeing your document, rigon.

Anyone else find it curious that the Trolls are putting the SS PDF at 50% off right now? Coincidence to our interest?

Maybe our interest, but more likely the new SW movie and all the hype around it. SS is already out there, so the Trolls don't have to wait to capitalize on it. Unlike any add on for AA.

R-


Toooooo bad they aren't reshuffling and improving the rules ...

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:50 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Lurker wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Treebore wrote:
I look forward to seeing your document, rigon.

Anyone else find it curious that the Trolls are putting the SS PDF at 50% off right now? Coincidence to our interest?

Maybe our interest, but more likely the new SW movie and all the hype around it. SS is already out there, so the Trolls don't have to wait to capitalize on it. Unlike any add on for AA.

R-


Toooooo bad they aren't reshuffling and improving the rules ...

I've been saying that for years.

R-

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Rigon wrote:
I'm going to try put put together a working outline sometime this weekend. Just something to help me put together my SW supplement and to have a place to keep ideas/thoughts. I'll post it when I have it finished so you guys can see where I'm going.

R-

So I had a fit of creativity and went a little bit further than a working outline. I went a head and made up a house rule/campaign guide. I posted it in the other thread. I'll re-post my Force rules here for this discussion, but realize that some of the rules (especial Trappings for powers) are incomplete.

You can see my take on how the Force and Darkside will work within the existing rules with a few tweaks.

R-

Force & Darkside Score
1.4 Force (Psi) Galactic Standard: 1; Starting Force score by the book, then add Confidence and Empathy bonuses. If the character selects the Channeling and/or Mental Endurance Specialties during Step 4 of character creation, they can add those bonuses to their Force score also. No additional bonuses are added if the character spends gained XPs to buy or increase Channeling or Mental Endurance later in their careers.
1.5 Darkside (Taint) Starting Score: 0; Intensity Rating: x3; Darkside points will be awarded when the character performs an “evil” act. XP generated from Darkside points can be stored up like regular XPs, but may only be spent to increase their Force score or to buy Force Powers. They can never be spent on anything else. If the character's total Darkside score (spent and unspent points) should ever become greater than a characters Force score, then they go over to the Darkside and become NPCs.

Force Powers (Special Abilities)
Potency and Drain
-A Force Power with a Potency (P) rating greater than 0 requires the user to make an Empathy check CL equal to the Potency unless they have a Force score equal to or greater than the Potency rating. (Ex: Telepathy has a Potency rating of 4 (P4). A Force user who has a Force score of 3 or less would have to make an Empathy check with a CL of 4 to activate this power. If they had a Force score of 4 or more, they could activate Telepathy without a check.)
-A Force user can use a number of Force Powers in a 24 hour period equal to their Force score without tracking Drain. Once the Force user has reached that limit, they suffer the effects of Drain as normal. (Ex: A Force user has a Force score of 10. They can use 10 Force Powers for “free” before they have to track Drain.)

The following Force Powers are available for purchase:
(Note: Trappings will be forth coming)
Clairvoyance (Second Sight)
Confusion
Energy Manipulation
Healing
Intuition (Sense the Force)
Lightsaber (Nova Sword) Combat
Physical Enhancement
Sensory Enhancement
Sixth Sense* (Danger Sense)
Telekinesis*
Telepathy*

*Listed in the Field Manuel pg 27

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:14 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Treebore wrote:
Yeah, I've wondered that too, but even when they are on highly technological worlds with very little natural wildlife, they seem just as capable of tapping into the Force as they are anywhere else. So the connection to the rock and the ship I am guessing is just as important as any connection between things we consider to be alive. The Force truly is in "everything" and between everything. So all that really matters is how attuned to it you are.


Some Native American languages had the concept of gender (just as French does) but they also included categories for things being 'alive' or 'not alive.' So, some rocks were considered alive and others were not. A desert might appear desolate to the untrained eye but a biologist might see an intricate web of life, especially at the soil level. Some of those cities we saw in the prequels might have seemed unnatural but they certainly were rich in human lives. I think you are right that it is all about connections. Can the Jedi find his centre and then connect to what is around him ...

Are Sith really evil? They might see themselves as 'passionate.'

btw: I admire what you are doing, Rigon. Neat project.


Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:14 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Lurker. YMMV but I do believe some places have a soulless energy. For example, if I have to spend any extended amount of time on I-35 I tend to feel very sick to my stomach as a result. You can call it motion sickness if you like but I believe it is a physical reaction to the horror and ugliness of it all. heh


Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Lurker. YMMV but I do believe some places have a soulless energy. For example, if I have to spend any extended amount of time on I-35 I tend to feel very sick to my stomach as a result. You can call it motion sickness if you like but I believe it is a physical reaction to the horror and ugliness of it all. heh


I'm driving in California again. I can definitely see the horror.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Lurker. YMMV but I do believe some places have a soulless energy. For example, if I have to spend any extended amount of time on I-35 I tend to feel very sick to my stomach as a result. You can call it motion sickness if you like but I believe it is a physical reaction to the horror and ugliness of it all. heh



YMMV.... not sure what that means ... Hope it is nice .... :)

I'd agree with you, but from a different angle ... I wouldn't say it is soulless but a reaction to the mass pettiness and self-centeredness of humanity when jammed together an allowed to focus on only themselves. It isn't the highways fault, nore the buildings surrounding it, but the peoples actions and reactions to each other in that area.

However, to me that opens the point that a sith may have a good opportunity to draw on corrupted force in over populated areas where mass humanity degrades itself ... but that is a debate for faith philosophy and the like ...

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Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:23 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:

Some Native American languages had the concept of gender (just as French does) but they also included categories for things being 'alive' or 'not alive.' So, some rocks were considered alive and others were not. A desert might appear desolate to the untrained eye but a biologist might see an intricate web of life, especially at the soil level. Some of those cities we saw in the prequels might have seemed unnatural but they certainly were rich in human lives. I think you are right that it is all about connections. Can the Jedi find his centre and then connect to what is around him ...

Are Sith really evil? They might see themselves as 'passionate.'

btw: I admire what you are doing, Rigon. Neat project.


I agree, there is no where on earth that life doesn't exist, and the life is intertwined. Most may miss it, but it is there ..

As for Sith and evil ... Yes, They may say just impassioned, unrestrained freed from societal restraints and any other words to cover or justify it. But, I'm stoic not sophist so I call it evil. Killing is not evil in and of itself - I would have today if the ducks and geese flew a bit more or a touch lower, and I watched a hawk do it to a rabbit (and try to 'kill' one of my decoys). But a Sith does not kill in need or defense it murders. Passion itself is not evil, but passion unrestrained and self focused is. A Sith is self centered and unrestrained. The list can go on and on.

Even taking Christian norms out of the equations - leaving Greco-Roman philosophy, or when you look at any philosophy for that matter - A Sith as portrayed in the movies and in the EU is evil.

However, evil does not mean unredeemable ... but again, that is a debate for another place

..... Boy, 4 hours on the duck pond - in the never ending OK wind, and geese flying over and ducks not flying at all - must have put me in a mood to jump on the ole soap box ....

Hope it doesn't come off more preachy than I mean for it to ...

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Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:48 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
I think the Sith in the movies, and the books and comics I have read, have been very clearly evil. They kill just because someone failed them, got in their way, or just want to send a message. Try disagreeing or even arguing with a Sith, see how long you live.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:18 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Lurker: YMMV is 'Your Mileage May Vary.' Sorry for trying to be punny. I love bird watching. It sounds like you have a beautiful area near you.

I don't like alignment systems in games, Nobody plays them correctly anyway. When we played D&D the characters were all good or neutral yet we still wandered the world killing nearly everything we found for their loot. We sometimes had excuses to do that but with or without those excuses we still would have done the same thing. We really were murdering hobos.

Our sample of Sith from the movies is way too small to really draw conclusions. And the few we've seen all happened to be enemies of the Jedi.

I think they are not necessarily evil though. I think Lucas and Co. modeled the idea of the force from Taoism. We are told time and again that the force has two sides: the dark and the light. We are also told that Anakin was born to balance the Force. I think the yin-yang energies were out of balance and he was there to set the wheel spinning again. But one side cannot exist without the other because they are complementary, not opposing. They are the dark side and bright side of the same mountain.

I like the way the factions are depicted in the video game. The Jedi are more Yin (which should be the dark side.) Jedi are cool, serene, harmonious. They focus on knowledge. The Sith are more Yang (which really ought to be the light side). Sith are warm, energetic, passionate. Their focus is strength.

So the Sith might better be described as powerful (perhaps dangerous) rather than evil. And yes, because they are passionate they probably tend to recruit some hot heads. But they also might have a lot of artists. The Jedi have their own evil. Especially in the prequels we see just how cold and bureaucratic their society is. They have become rigid and lack compassion. This is why Anakin must stir the pot. I almost hate to say this but now I half wish Lucas had been allowed to make this latest movie. I want to know what followed Darth Vader's death and what happens now that the prophesy has been fulfilled!


Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
By all means be as punny as your heart desires.

I just may need a little help with translating it as I never do short hand text ...

I'd argue that is an issue with the group &/or their outlook of the game instead of it being the system/alignment make up pf the rule's fault. However, to me that is an issue with most groups. It comes down to looting and being a murder hobo and not filling a realistic role in the game world. But ... I'll avoid that soap box (I've used up my preachieness for a week or 2 in this thread already)

For Yen & Yang, I'll start by saying I'm even less that a novice on eastern philosophy, also, I then to transpose western outlooks into them when they may or may not actually overlap. I have read a bit, and my best friend in the military was Buddhist, but that gives me only minimal experience with them.

That said, the way I understand yen and yang is 'personal balance' in the universe / point of existence. To me very similar to Greek 'Know thyself & to thyself be true, ALL things in moderation' . I don't think it is focused on all things in the universe balance each other. Where there is a Mother Teresa there must be a Dahmer, where there is a philanthropic entrepreneur there must be a greedy thief, where there is a hero risking his life for others there is a cowardly murder ... That doesn't sound like a philosophy I don't even think Gnostics or Manachism went that far. Again, I may be wrong.

That said, with my stance being a Western Greco-Roman Christian philosophy, they may not start as evil or even see themselves as evil. But to say they aren't evil is moral relativism. On top of that is Lucas' love of Campbell's 'hero of a 1000 faces' (I think that is the book idea, but may be mis-remembering it's title), and the mythic hero process. With that hero process there must be a greater evil the hero must contest against and pass through to become the great hero they are fated to. So, if there is a good hero, he must have an evil opponent that is greater/more powerful to war against. So, if Luke, as he becomes a Jedi is becoming a good hero (faulted at best but still good) then his opponents the Sith must be evil.

However, I do agree with your summary of the Jedi temple / counsel being cold and burocratic . However, that isn't a result of their philosophy, but a result of them building an extra layer/layers of religious political leadership overarching their philosophy. Any examples I can think of in real world will be an overtly religious point, so I'll leave off the argument there.

Great philosophy discussion ...

I did say I had multi reasons for this thread, and hoped we would have some good deeper water discussion, so thanks !

Now, back to Jedi skills & powers.

The scene, Obi-wan & Qui-Gon in the room with the droid giving them a drink ... the room fills with a gas. They him and haw a bit about which gas it is. The door opens and the gas fills the room, but then the light sabers spring to life and the Jedi are none the worse for their time in the toxic air. What power was it?

I assume healing, but I may be wrong.

What about sensing a force user near by - Vader "I feel a disturbance in the force, something I haven't felt since ..."

Would it be Clairvoyance, intuition, or 6th sense?

Now for a selfish reason ... as it will be a hinge on the Jedi path I'm working on ... what counters that sense of the wrinkle of the force. Of course it can't hide active force use then and there, but be like an invisibility to force sense when only passive force powers are used (danger sense or the like). I know this isn't in any movie and not truly in D6, but it is one of the few things I like from SAGA Star Wars.

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Breath control. If you watch the scene, as the gas is entering when they realize it's poisonous, they both take deep breaths...


Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:29 am
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Well, going by my list the Qui-gon/Obi-wan scene would be Physical Enhancement (They increase their Physique so they can hold their breath for a longer time). The Vader scene would Intuition (Sense Force).

As for the hiding of Force, you could go with Intuition. An inversion of the power so to speak.

R-

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Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:38 am
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Ulthal
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Lurker wrote:

That said, the way I understand yen and yang is 'personal balance' in the universe / point of existence. To me very similar to Greek 'Know thyself & to thyself be true, ALL things in moderation' . I don't think it is focused on all things in the universe balance each other. Where there is a Mother Teresa there must be a Dahmer, where there is a philanthropic entrepreneur there must be a greedy thief, where there is a hero risking his life for others there is a cowardly murder ... That doesn't sound like a philosophy I don't even think Gnostics or Manachism went that far. Again, I may be wrong.


I agree. The universe is not nearly so simple. Another reason to toss out alignment systems. Allowing some complexity makes for better story telling. And yeah, that isn't what Taoism says at all. The mountain example was to show that one thing can have seemingly opposite aspects incorporated within. In Taoism evil is a consequence of certain actions or inaction. Buddhism and Taoism are closely intertwined and I believe both share the idea that hatred, greed and ignorance are poisons. When we act with those motivations evil follows. If I understand correctly in Gnosticism and Manichaeism evil is more like an outside supernatural force or enemy that works against humanity.

Lurker wrote:
That said, with my stance being a Western Greco-Roman Christian philosophy, they may not start as evil or even see themselves as evil. But to say they aren't evil is moral relativism. On top of that is Lucas' love of Campbell's 'hero of a 1000 faces' (I think that is the book idea, but may be mis-remembering it's title), and the mythic hero process. With that hero process there must be a greater evil the hero must contest against and pass through to become the great hero they are fated to. So, if there is a good hero, he must have an evil opponent that is greater/more powerful to war against. So, if Luke, as he becomes a Jedi is becoming a good hero (faulted at best but still good) then his opponents the Sith must be evil.


I'm still sticking with the theory that the few Sith we saw just happened to be corrupt individuals working for the Empire and that tucked away in some forgotten corner there are some Sith who follow a way that is true to their culture's promise. That the force had become unbalanced because there were too many Jedi and not enough Sith. Vader fulfils his destiny/the prophesy, by breaking what was becoming a soul sucking monopoly even if it was originally well intentioned. It seems like a horrible thing and it would suck to have to be Darth Vader but levelling the playing field might allow the force to regenerate and become whole and strong again. Just as it is horrible to watch an old tree get struck by lightning, we also know it is an opportunity for new growth.

I loved Campbell's book and this is the very thing that kinda/sorta makes me wish I could have seen where Lucas would have taken us next. I would have liked to have seen a story where the two factions, Sith and Jedi, were placed in a position where the threat was so awful they needed to work together. Each could bring their unique talents to the conflict. Jedi rationality & organization with Sith creativity & impulsivity. Or whatever combo makes sense. Maybe this time instead of using light sabers to solve the problem they do something completely out of the box (tricksy and clever like Bilbo) because maybe this time the use of straight forward violence would simply work against them. And maybe as they work together they could see how both sides of the force are valuable and have something to offer. Maybe eventually, the factions could merge to become something even greater.

Lurker wrote:
However, I do agree with your summary of the Jedi temple / counsel being cold and burocratic . However, that isn't a result of their philosophy, but a result of them building an extra layer/layers of religious political leadership overarching their philosophy. Any examples I can think of in real world will be an overtly religious point, so I'll leave off the argument there.

Great philosophy discussion ...

I did say I had multi reasons for this thread, and hoped we would have some good deeper water discussion, so thanks !


Thanks for the opportunity. =)


Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:34 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:

I'm still sticking with the theory that the few Sith we saw just happened to be corrupt individuals working for the Empire and that tucked away in some forgotten corner there are some Sith who follow a way that is true to their culture's promise. That the force had become unbalanced because there were too many Jedi and not enough Sith. Vader fulfils his destiny/the prophesy, by breaking what was becoming a soul sucking monopoly even if it was originally well intentioned. It seems like a horrible thing and it would suck to have to be Darth Vader but levelling the playing field might allow the force to regenerate and become whole and strong again. Just as it is horrible to watch an old tree get struck by lightning, we also know it is an opportunity for new growth.



I have no doubt such force users exist, but I doubt they call themselves Sith, and they most certainly do not hang out with them, since we have never seen such "Sith" in the movies, etc... There probably is a "Third Order" of force Users, who stay away from the Jedi and Sith for purposes of self preservation, etc... Who love, marry, have kids, and don't go around enslaving people and pretty much mind their own business.

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Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:38 am
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Lore Drake
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
George Lucas on the Force:

The core of the Force, I mean, you've got the
Dark Side and the Light Side. One is selfless,
one is selfish and you want to keep them in
balance.

What happens when you go to the Dark Side is
that it goes out of balance and you get really
selfish and forget about everybody. Ultimately
you lead yourself because when you get selfish,
you get stuff...or you want stuff. And when you
want stuff and you get stuff then you get afraid
people are going to take it away from you, whether
it's a person or a thing or a particular pleasure,
experience. Once you become afraid that somebody
is going to take it away from you, or you are going to
lose it, then you start to become angry, especially
if you're losing it and that anger leads to hate and
hate leads to suffering, mostly on the part of the
person who is selfish, because you spend all of your
time being afraid of losing everything you've got
instead of actually living.

For joy, by giving to other people, you can't think
about yourself, and therefore there's no pain.
But the pleasure factor of greed and of selfishness
is a short-lived experience. Therefore you are
constantly trying to replenish it. But, of course
the more you replenish it the harder is to, so you
have to start upping the ante. You are actually
afraid of the pain of not having the joy. So that
is ultimately the core of the whole Dark Side /
Light Side of the Force and everything flows from
that.

Obviously the Sith are always unhappy because they
never get enough of anything they want. Mostly their
selfishness centers around power and control and the
struggle is always to be able to let go of all that
stuff. And of course that's the problem with Anakin
all the time: you're allowed to love people but
you're not allowed to possess them. And what he did,
is he fell in love and married her and became jealous
and he saw in his visions that she was gonna die.
He couldn't stand losing her. So, in order to not
lose her he made a pact with the devil to be able to
become all powerful. But of course when he did that,
she didn't want anything to do with him anymore,
so he lost her.

Once you are all powerful, being able to bring her
back from the dead... well if I can do that then I
can be emperor of the universe. I can get rid of the
emperor, I can do anything I want! And once you've
done that, you're never going to be satiated, you're
always going to be consumed with this driving desire
to have more stuff and be afraid others are going to
take it away from you. And of course, they are,
because every time you have two Sith together, you
have the master, you have the apprentice. The
apprentice is always trying to recruit another
apprentice to join with him to kill the master. The
master knows that basically everybody below him
wants his job.


The only way to overcome the Dark Side is through
discipline. The Dark Side is pleasure, biological and
temporary and easy to achieve. The Light Side is joy,
everlasting, and difficult to achieve; a great challenge.
[One] must overcome laziness, give up quick pleasures
and overcome fear, which leads to hate.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dvgRT3Kx8 :) :)


Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:30 am
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Ulthal
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Good find! But, how ironic to hear Lucas talk about greed, selfishness and hierarchical power structures. I guess he must be at least part-Sith judging from the stories cast and crew have shared over time about his creative process. Poor guy. I will never forget that one interview he did where he complained about people letting the CGI take over their stories ... hahahaha ... I mean, yeah, don't you hate it when that happens?

So if that is the moral structure of the world, what exactly did Darth Vader accomplish as the so-called chosen one? How did he correct the balance of the whole multi-verse if only one generation later we see rebels fighting an empire-like military force? Either Qui-Gon Jin was wrong or the ancient prophesies describe a lacklustre event. Darth Sidius may have been a Sith lord but killing one guy doesn't mean you've even touched the actual force of the 'dark' side.


Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:08 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Good find! But, how ironic to hear Lucas talk about greed, selfishness and hierarchical power structures. I guess he must be at least part-Sith judging from the stories cast and crew have shared over time about his creative process. Poor guy. I will never forget that one interview he did where he complained about people letting the CGI take over their stories ... hahahaha ... I mean, yeah, don't you hate it when that happens?

So if that is the moral structure of the world, what exactly did Darth Vader accomplish as the so-called chosen one? How did he correct the balance of the whole multi-verse if only one generation later we see rebels fighting an empire-like military force? Either Qui-Gon Jin was wrong or the ancient prophesies describe a lacklustre event. Darth Sidius may have been a Sith lord but killing one guy doesn't mean you've even touched the actual force of the 'dark' side.


He destroyed both sides. First the Jedi were destroyed, then with Luke's help, the Sith were broken/destroyed, and in the rebuilding the balance will be restored. So the balance is yet to be restored, its still a work in progress.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:04 pm
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Ulthal
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Treebore wrote:
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Good find! But, how ironic to hear Lucas talk about greed, selfishness and hierarchical power structures. I guess he must be at least part-Sith judging from the stories cast and crew have shared over time about his creative process. Poor guy. I will never forget that one interview he did where he complained about people letting the CGI take over their stories ... hahahaha ... I mean, yeah, don't you hate it when that happens?

So if that is the moral structure of the world, what exactly did Darth Vader accomplish as the so-called chosen one? How did he correct the balance of the whole multi-verse if only one generation later we see rebels fighting an empire-like military force? Either Qui-Gon Jin was wrong or the ancient prophesies describe a lacklustre event. Darth Sidius may have been a Sith lord but killing one guy doesn't mean you've even touched the actual force of the 'dark' side.


He destroyed both sides. First the Jedi were destroyed, then with Luke's help, the Sith were broken/destroyed, and in the rebuilding the balance will be restored. So the balance is yet to be restored, its still a work in progress.


=P
excuses excuses heh

Or we could just say this plot line is as wobbly as a new born kitten.


Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:57 pm
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Penny-Whistle wrote:
Good find! But, how ironic to hear Lucas talk about greed, selfishness and hierarchical power structures. I guess he must be at least part-Sith judging from the stories cast and crew have shared over time about his creative process. Poor guy. I will never forget that one interview he did where he complained about people letting the CGI take over their stories ... hahahaha ... I mean, yeah, don't you hate it when that happens?

So if that is the moral structure of the world, what exactly did Darth Vader accomplish as the so-called chosen one? How did he correct the balance of the whole multi-verse if only one generation later we see rebels fighting an empire-like military force? Either Qui-Gon Jin was wrong or the ancient prophesies describe a lacklustre event. Darth Sidius may have been a Sith lord but killing one guy doesn't mean you've even touched the actual force of the 'dark' side.


He destroyed both sides. First the Jedi were destroyed, then with Luke's help, the Sith were broken/destroyed, and in the rebuilding the balance will be restored. So the balance is yet to be restored, its still a work in progress.


=P
excuses excuses heh

Or we could just say this plot line is as wobbly as a new born kitten.

Or a better solution is to ignore all that crap about the prophecy and balancing the Force.

R-

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Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:02 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
When you need to restore, or rebuild, something, you often have to destroy what was there before.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:56 pm
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Lore Drake
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
George Lucas says Who is The Chosen One:

You got to remember that this is one movie, and
it's meant to be seen I through VI. So, I think that
when you watch the actual movie in order, the
story will become very clear: that Anakin is The
Chosen One. And even when Anakin turns into Darth
Vader, he is still The Chosen One. The prophecy is
that Anakin will bring balance to the Force and
destroy the Sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth
Vader does become the hero. Darth Vader does
destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the emperor.
He does it, because he is redeemed by his son.

So the prophecy is true. And by doing that he
redeems himself and goes from being Darth Vader
back to being Anakin again. Everybody thought of
Darth Vader as this big evil guy who had no heart,
was just evil but in the end he's not that at all.
I mean, here's a guy who's lost everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA :) :)


Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:00 am
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Cleric of Zagyg
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Post Re: Star Siege – Star Wars Jedi
Fantastic thread (as is the other one)!

Great food for thought!!

Thanks.

Rhu. :)

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Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:23 am
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