Crusader #11: The Infernal Powers

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:32 pm

In Crusader #11, there is an interesting artcile by Mike Stewart called The Infernal Powers. This article details demons, devils and the layers of hell, but all too breifly. It's a pretty cool artical, and obviously there was a great deal of information removed from it before the article saw print. There is a missing chart for one thing that seems like it was to list the types of demons to be found in the various layers.

Has anybody expanded upon this article yet, or have their own mythos for the infernal powers of the underworld?

I would hope that one day this acticle serves as the foundation of demons, devils and the hells in Castles & Crusades. Mike Stewart's article was interesting to read despite this subject being covered quite well over the many years of FRPGs. Normally, the topic doesn't quite pique my interest, but this article did. Perhaps this article will be continued in future installments (with the aforementioned missing chart of demons and devils), or perhaps the author should be working on the offical Castles & Crusades treatment of these Infernal Powers in the long awaited Gods & Demons book.

-O
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 pm

Yes, you caught that the demonic/devil statistics table and descriptions were removed. I had originally thought it could be in a subsequent Crusader but they were the "typical" Demons/Devils from OOP AD&D and I'm given to understand that TLG wants to go further afield of that old paradyme and not publish things that could be misconstrued as "canon". Thus, the chart won't be in any further issues.
However (and I need to get off my duff and email Serl) I wanted to see if the C&C Wickie would be willing to host the chart and descriptions of Demons/Devils in a .pdf or something.

BTW, yes I've been pegged as one of the authors to work on Gods and Demons...whenever that gets rolling. Doubtless after the CKG.
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The Venomous Pao · Post by **The Venomous Pao** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:47 am

Well that's disappointing. I reckon I'll keep on the lookout for this at the wiki. Speaking of the wiki, where the hell is it, anyway?

Bummer about the hack job that had to happen to your article, man.

Do you know if the skills article will now be in #12? Or does it get shuffled around or, worse, cut entirely?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:49 am

Quote:
Has anybody expanded upon this article yet, or have their own mythos for the infernal powers of the underworld?

Yes. I have over 60 pages just on demons -- names, abilities, rites, and so forth... and that's not even getting to game mechanics. That'll take much more to do. Also, I created the C&C rules for "Gods" which applies, in some cases, to Archdemons / Devil Princes.... and that doesn't even come close to the 666 layers of Hell I have in vague terms described (not fully detailed since many of them "can't" be fully detailed -- they are more like worlds into themselves.)

So, yeah, I'd say I've got "something." I'd also bet 95% won't be in G&D. I'm a naughty little boy when it comes to this subject... it would not be "family friendly." I'd also bet it won't start being worked on until after the CKG and M&T II. Well, the writing can start before then, I guess... I do know I have other things considered more important to work on, so maybe I won't be asked to work on this at all.

And, as for the inclusion of the information on the C&C Wiki -- I don't personally have a problem with it, but would like to make sure its OK with TLG.

Oh, and the Wiki is right here.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:07 am

Again, thanks for the interest. While bits of it were in homage to Old School gaming, most of the sources were Dante's Inferno, Shakespeare, and Sir Walter Scott's own investigations; which were pretty historically accurate, believe it or not.

In Medieval Demonology the only real difference between a "Demon" and a "Devil" was a name. Devils had 'em, demons didn't. One's rank in the hierarchy was based on name and what evils/sins that name was associated with. In truth it can be easily extrapolated that much of these creature's interest in the denizens of the Prime Material plane is based on getting a name and "rep". They tend to get their names from human Diabolists and act as their henchmen/familiars in return for their name and evil acts to associate themselves with.

Of course, when said Master dies the demon/devil gleefully take their former master's soul to the lower planes so there's not much gratitude there.

The Venomous Pao wrote:
Bummer about the hack job that had to happen to your article, man.

I just regret doing all that extra work. I could've had the blasted thing in three days earlier but for the table and descriptions!

The Venomous Pao wrote:
Do you know if the skills article will now be in #12? Or does it get shuffled around or, worse, cut entirely?

Not #12, as its already in the pipe. I've got it ready to go for 13....which will probably depend on the Arms&Armor intro...if that's in 13 then Secondary Skills will go to #14. Otherwise I'm hoping #13.

But I won't promise anything since I seem to be out of the loop with Crusader mag. Which is odd, since I sleep with the copy editor.
(BTW, that's Indigo Rose; not the managing Editor Jim Ward. Just wanted to clarify...)

serleran wrote:
And, as for the inclusion of the information on the C&C Wiki -- I don't personally have a problem with it, but would like to make sure its OK with TLG.

Well, if you are going to wait until Steve says something about it....that'll be Xmas or New Year's. So, I'll try c&cplayer.net or dragonsfoot for hosting in the meantime.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:54 am

I don't want to start a religious thread, but, Mike, what you're saying depends a great deal on which demonology you're looking at -- if you're going with a Christianized demonology (that is, where several Gods of "pagan" faiths were "cast-out") then you have more of what you're talking about, but even then there are several different takes on it. For example, in some hardcore Catholic demonology, there was but one Devil, Satan (or, alternatively, simply "The Deceiver" amongst other epitaphs) who was served by demons. These bad guys already had their names (they came from the Nephilim and other sources such as the Zohar of "standard" and "mystic" Judaic belief, right out of one of the Apocryphal works -- some say sections of Genesis edited for their "slander.") In Zoroastrian demonolgy, amongst others (even some versions of Christian demonology) there were demons for each of the seven days, and for each hour, with the darkest and most destructive on Friday, midnight ("witch hour" in some cultures.)

But, yeah, I agree to a point, but would not say that is a "definitive" view.

Its a very fascinating subject, in my opinion... just a different take on religion, really.

Quote:
Well, if you are going to wait until Steve says something about it....that'll be Xmas or New Year's.

No, I just want to make sure you can distribute it how you please.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:37 pm

Oh, quite true. There is a vast amount of information of "dark forces" that can easily be construed as demons/devils. I limited my article to Dante, Shakespeare and Scott for the following reasons:

1. "Old School" Fantasy RPGs (it is Auld Wyrmish after all) tend to emphasize a Medieval/Early Renaissance Pseudo-Christian European culture. Thus Dante & Shakespeare and Scott (who reviewed and extrapolated upon the Great Bard's work).

2. Dante's Hell is pretty iconic for most layman's considerations of Hell and its torments.

3. Including the dark forces from all possible religions and subsets of Christianity would have made my already long article into dozens of pages! I might try that with work on G&D, but I prefer the iconic all in all.

BTW, let me say that "Names" as power doesn't limit a demon or devil to just one. More names is more power....though it can end in greater weakness dependent on the kabalistic views. Eventually you end up with a secret "Name of Power" which the devil has to keep secret else they can be controlled by mortals.

As for posting the article...its my work and not TLG's copyright. But I wouldn't want to put the wiki in any possible liability so I'll just go to the others. cncplayer.net already hosts two of my old Auld Wyrmish articles and DF wouldn't have a problem anyway so its all good.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:24 pm

Sieg has the missing article pieces hosted at DF right here:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/In ... Powers.pdf
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:51 pm

Thanks for that!

-O
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:25 pm

I'd emailed Steve at DF yesterday to ask him about it and he said he'd try to get it up....and would let me know when it was.

The first I hear of it is here!
Oh well, at least they're up.

I look forward to opinions and critiques...

Mike
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:48 am

Great Stuff Mike.

Since this is out as far as Crusader goes, would you be willing to put it in Domesday> I'd be willing to whip up the illustrations for it.

Peace

Morty
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Indigo Rose · Post by **Indigo Rose** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:38 pm

Crap. I just noticed that the explanation for the @ symbol didn't make it into the PDF. My bad. I'm going to fix that and hopefully Dragonsfoot will update the link...
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:17 am

Sure Kevin, go for it!
Let me know if I ought to add something to it before publication or if it can go in "As is".
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:13 pm

sieg wrote:
Sure Kevin, go for it!
Let me know if I ought to add something to it before publication or if it can go in "As is".

Cool Mike, I'll let the powers that be know a,d I'll get back to you.
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A Room Zoom Zoom. A Room Zoom Zoom. Gilly Gilly Gilly Gilly Ot Zat Za Come open the magic door with me, With your imagination there's so much we can see. There is a doorway that leads to a place. I'll find my way by the smile on your face.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:23 pm

sieg wrote:
Not #12, as its already in the pipe. I've got it ready to go for 13....which will probably depend on the Arms&Armor intro...if that's in 13 then Secondary Skills will go to #14. Otherwise I'm hoping #13.

But I won't promise anything since I seem to be out of the loop with Crusader mag. Which is odd, since I sleep with the copy editor.
(BTW, that's Indigo Rose; not the managing Editor Jim Ward. Just wanted to clarify...)

Looking forward to the Secondary Skills article (actually the reason I picked up issue 11)
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