Things I would have done for 4E...

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moriarty777
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Things I would have done for 4E...

Post by moriarty777 »

Well, I had a chance to do a thorough thumbing through the books, and while I'm *not* going to bother trying to do a comparison I'm not sure if I'd give the set a passing grade either.

I'm not going to go into rule changes either... that's another discussion, for another day, on another forum!
Anyway, I'm talking more in terms of presentation and the type of material.

My biggest beef for the core set is the DMG. As far as I can tell, there are exactly 6 pages which may be considered 'necessary'. These pages deal with the tables for treasure allotment based on party level. Scattered throughout the book are a couple of other handy tables such as XP Rewards or random dungeon stuff, and a small assortment of rules that aren't in the PHB. The majority is fluff which I would gladly do without.

I have no problems with the MM. It's looks really good.

I have no problems with the PHB. It's entirely functional and I think will meet the goals and expectations of this sort of book.

I see no point in the DMG save for a handful of pages. Pages that might have found a home in either the PHB and MM. If they hadn't stuck the magical items into the PHB... the three book set could have worked. However, I'm left wondering how better it could have been as a two book set.

It seems to work well enough for another game I play and love!

M
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Post by serleran »

Funny, really, and depressing yet a wonderful earmark of Gygax genius:

Since Gary's DMG masterpiece, each D&D-like game has been unable to equal it. They have all written one, each becoming more and more useless over time... the 2e DMG has elements of coolness (not many, but some) and then the 3.0 DMG which is nearly toilet paper (very little worth reading) and then the 4e one, which, according to this review, places it as wasted paper.... and even the CKG for C&C, which is wholly optional and "unnecessary." Man!

This makes me want to make the CKG as awesome as I can, and possibly compile all the SGs together for serleran's guide to whatever....

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Post by moriarty777 »

serleran wrote:
Funny, really, and depressing yet a wonderful earmark of Gygax genius:

Since Gary's DMG masterpiece, each D&D-like game has been unable to equal it. They have all written one, each becoming more and more useless over time... the 2e DMG has elements of coolness (not many, but some) and then the 3.0 DMG which is nearly toilet paper (very little worth reading) and then the 4e one, which, according to this review, places it as wasted paper.... and even the CKG for C&C, which is wholly optional and "unnecessary." Man!

This makes me want to make the CKG as awesome as I can, and possibly compile all the SGs together for serleran's guide to whatever....

Well, from the little I have heard about the CKG... it already (and easily) surpasses this latest DMG effort. For someone new coming to the game, I'm sure the DMG will be of some use. There is a lot of stuff on how to run a game... adapting pre-made modules and pre-made campaigns, setting up encounters and that sort of fluff which unfortunately makes up most of the book. To be honest, the book seems like an afterthought.

As to the line of SG products you are writing... I can only wonder what the next few in the line will cover.
No DMG has been able to surpass Gygax's DMG but then again, none should.

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Post by Treebore »

You know, I thought the DMG 2 and PH 2 were pretty much wastes of paper. Then two of my kids read them, and I decided they were very worthwhile material. Not just because my kids read them, but because my kids said they were a good read and taught them a lot about running the games. Affects I saw in the very next game sessions they ran.

So yeah, the DMG for 4E may be useless to us "old salts", but for the new people, whom 4E is aimed at drawing in to the "family", it will probably be awesome.
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Post by sieg »

On this subject, we went to our local FLGS today to pick up comics and see if anything new (other than 4X) was in the gaming section.

I spoke to the owner and as of 7pm today he'd sold exactly 1 4E PHB.

That's it....and he got in several copies of each book and a few of the box set/slipcase versions as well.

Maybe he'll do better tomorrow.

Forgive me if I hope not.
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Post by moriarty777 »

sieg wrote:
On this subject, we went to our local FLGS today to pick up comics and see if anything new (other than 4X) was in the gaming section.

I spoke to the owner and as of 7pm today he'd sold exactly 1 4E PHB.

That's it....and he got in several copies of each book and a few of the box set/slipcase versions as well.

Maybe he'll do better tomorrow.

Forgive me if I hope not.

I was tempted to drop by one of the two game stores I frequent but decided against it -- too freakin' tired. However, anyone who shops around and does online purchasing will have gotten their copies from Amazon or similar. Both local stores are selling the books at pretty much full price. Same goes for big book store retailers in town like Chapters. $105 for the gift set is a bit much to swallow IMO. It's possible to get it from Amazon.com for under $60.

I will find it hard to believe if I hear of a local games stores or hobbyshop that is unable to meet any sort of demand because of this. It will be the die-hards who had to have it the day that it was available that may end up paying full price for it.

I on the other hand am hoping for some further 3.x and d20 related discounts!

M
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Post by Go0gleplex »

What I would have done diffferent...

Well, made it less Monty Haul for starters.
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Post by Treebore »

How about what I am going to do with 4E? Ignore most of the recycled junk and steal the gems for my C&C game.

There are some ideas in there from some cool video games that I have been wanting to adapt to my game anyways. It looks like 4E got them most fo the way to a usable rule. Now I'll just have to get it the rest of the way there.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:
How about what I am going to do with 4E? Ignore most of the recycled junk and steal the gems for my C&C game.

There are some ideas in there from some cool video games that I have been wanting to adapt to my game anyways. It looks like 4E got them most fo the way to a usable rule. Now I'll just have to get it the rest of the way there.

Well, it does appear that the only book you'll need is the PHB... the DMG and MM would be of little use.

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Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:
You know, I thought the DMG 2 and PH 2 were pretty much wastes of paper. Then two of my kids read them, and I decided they were very worthwhile material. Not just because my kids read them, but because my kids said they were a good read and taught them a lot about running the games. Affects I saw in the very next game sessions they ran.

So yeah, the DMG for 4E may be useless to us "old salts", but for the new people, whom 4E is aimed at drawing in to the "family", it will probably be awesome.

You know, I had to think about this before immediately posting a comment. The problem in this case Tree has more to do with the amount of the stuff of this nature which was used. Despite the nature of the stuff which could be of genuine use to the newbie, having a section on how to use and adapt a pre-made adventure... and another on how for pre-made campaign settings is a bit much. It really looks they tried to pad this book since a lot of the contents traditionally associated with the book wound up in the PHB instead.

From my understanding there will be some things of a helpful nature in the CKG when it comes out but the ratio of this sort of material to the rest of the book will probably be a bit more balanced.

As a collector (of sorts), I was still kinda sorta interested in picking this edition up just for the sake of having it. Plus, there is always some mining potential. But they just made it so hard too!

M
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Post by Treebore »

moriarty777 wrote:
You know, I had to think about this before immediately posting a comment. The problem in this case Tree has more to do with the amount of the stuff of this nature which was used. Despite the nature of the stuff which could be of genuine use to the newbie, having a section on how to use and adapt a pre-made adventure... and another on how for pre-made campaign settings is a bit much. It really looks they tried to pad this book since a lot of the contents traditionally associated with the book wound up in the PHB instead.

From my understanding there will be some things of a helpful nature in the CKG when it comes out but the ratio of this sort of material to the rest of the book will probably be a bit more balanced.

As a collector (of sorts), I was still kinda sorta interested in picking this edition up just for the sake of having it. Plus, there is always some mining potential. But they just made it so hard too!

M

Really? I am actually stunned that they would write such a useless DMG. I figured they would at least be able to make it a good primer for new DM's.

You sure its that bad?
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Post by sieg »

Hey Treebore,

Could you give some examples of changes in your kids's playstyle that happend pre and post 4X DMG?

Curious,

Mike
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Post by Harry Joy »

moriarty777 wrote:
As a collector (of sorts), I was still kinda sorta interested in picking this edition up just for the sake of having it.

Ultimately, that's why I went ahead and got it. Like I said elsewhere, $52.48 is hard to beat, and I sold a bunch of old DVDs to make the 50 bucks, so it was no cash out of pocket. Now I have 1st, 2nd, 3.5 and 4th core books. To be honest, I wish I still had the 3.0 ones. In some ways they were better than 3.5, some ways worse, but my collection isn't complete now. [I bought the 3.0 books about three months before 3.5 came out, and I was pissed as hell that no one warned me at the shop. Back then, my net presence was slightly below that of your average granny. I gave the books away.]

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Post by MaxKaladin »

Treebore wrote:
So yeah, the DMG for 4E may be useless to us "old salts", but for the new people, whom 4E is aimed at drawing in to the "family", it will probably be awesome.
I have to agree here. What I've seen of the new DMG has had a lot of good advice for someone very new to the game that will seem useless to the typical veteran gamer. This book really isn't aimed at veteran gamers. It's aimed at beginners.

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Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:
Really? I am actually stunned that they would write such a useless DMG. I figured they would at least be able to make it a good primer for new DM's.

You sure its that bad?

Well, having spent only a bit of time with it, I have to say that this was a strong first impression. Is it totally useless (while keeping in mind the complete newbie)?

No... It's not useless and I'm certain that there will be some out there that will get value from the book. However, anyone who has played or run a game before will be very hard pressed to consult the book. You photocopy the six pages for I mentioned in the original post (and stick them in you PHB), and you can pretty much leave the new DMG to collect dust on your shelf.

A new gamer who's running a game for the first time will surely get some good value by reading the book but I still doubt they will be consulting it much after they have done so.
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Post by Foxroe »

I also feel compelled to collect all of the editions (and I have so far), but based on what I've read up until now, I just can't bring myself to acquire the 4th one now. It just seems so far removed from what the game's creator intended it to be (IMHO of course).

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Post by Harry Joy »

I never would have, even at 1/2 off cover price, if I hadn't had a momentary lapse of sanity two weeks back, when I signed the pre-order. I was kinda pissed at several things. My late regret was what pushed me into selling off some old junk DVDs to cover the cost of the 50. That way, I can sit here and in complete self-delusion pretend that my ex-wife bought the damned things.

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Post by moriarty777 »

Foxroe wrote:
I also feel compelled to collect all of the editions (and I have so far), but based on what I've read up until now, I just can't bring myself to acquire the 4th one now. It just seems so far removed from what the game's creator intended it to be (IMHO of course).

-Fox

I know what you mean... and the sentiment of not being about to bring yourself to acquire the new edition couldn't be better put.

So... all I have to say is:

THANKS TLG FOR ALL THE WORK YOU'VE DONE TO BRING US C&C !!

M
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Post by moriarty777 »

GACK!

As if it wasn't bad enough already... I took a look at all the 4th Ed stuff that you could pre-order which are planned to be released between now and the fall on Paizo!

This includes:

D&D Adventurer's Vault (HC) - Equipment and Items (magical and mundane)

D&D Martial Power (HC) - New options for Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, and Warlords... first in a line of supplements to give 100s of new options for D&D characters.

D&D Manual of the Planes (HC) - I don't think an explanation is needed for this one

D&D Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (HC) - ...or this one

D&D Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (HC) -

On top of all the other modules and other associated items. WOTC is definitely in full production. As 3rd party companies are just getting their product out the door, WOTC is making sure that they thoroughly choke the market first!

M
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Post by Julian Grimm »

I have rethought my 4e interest and discovered that I can easily bring in what I like to C&C. More starting HP's. Done. A more 'at will' magic system. Done. Healing surges (which I do think are cool). Done. The only thing I really want a hardcopy of the material on is the new planar fluff which I liked. BUt I think I could snag one of the preview books and get that.

If I had more time to game I'd probably be more serious about looking at 4e. However I only have the time and now money for one game. And that is C&C.
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Post by moriarty777 »

I'm certainly curious in getting a copy of the SRD when it becomes available. But with some great material which can be mined with recent projects (as in Paizo and Monte's offerings), I'm sure there will be more down the line too.

This thread should not be construed as a slam against the system. I still want to at least try and play it at least once. They say that variety is the spice of life after all!
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Post by serleran »

I am not surprised by a lackluster DMG - after all 3.x D&D suffers from a stigma of being "too complex a rule system to just hop into" so they want to de-Dummy the book and make it more accessible. The problem, here, is that you're dealing with Damocles wielding Occam. Make it too "simple" and even the newbies feel like they're being treated like idiots, but you can't make it too "useless" or the current audience doesn't buy it. This is not an easy pathway to Paizo. ;)

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Re: Things I would have done for 4E...

Post by AGNKim »

moriarty777 wrote:
I have no problems with the MM. It's looks really good.

While I normally dislike all things WotC, but the art in the new books, especially the MM, is pretty cool.
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Post by JRR »

I have almost every product from every edition of D&D - missing only a very few basic D&D modules and some of the late 2e and late 3eproducts. I will not own any 4e products, and it makes me sad. An era has ended. I didn't think it was possible to kill D&D, didn't think anyone COULD do it, but this latest group of idiots has. I didn't like 3e, but I could sit down and play a game and recognize it as D&D, 4e seems like something a ten year old dreamed up. A very unimaginative ten year old.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Is that like the unimaginative basement dwellers who fear change? Even Gygax admitted that AD&D possibly wouldn't look like the same game under his control when he talked of his second and later editions that he was planning.
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Post by Zebulon »

moriarty777 wrote:
For someone new coming to the game, I'm sure the DMG will be of some use. There is a lot of stuff on how to run a game...
JRR wrote:
4e seems like something a ten year old dreamed up.

Maybe WotC targeted young gamers (teenagers) with this edition? This is something I wondered several times: WotC deemed it was not interesting to make the game for older players who anyway already have a lot of games and not necessarily a lot of time to play them. Hence, they made a game that would appeal to a new generation of players, targeted at a 10-13 age range, hence the video-gamey feel, and such things as "angelic faces", "astral diamonds", and what not. I see this appealing to teenagers, but of course not to the old generation of players. After all, Hasbro sells toys for kids!!!

Anyway, for older players used to what D&D was, and appaled at 4e, I can suggest this thread...

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Post by Julian Grimm »

IIRC junior high to college age is the main demographic of players. It makes sense that they would make a game targeted at that group. I'd almost bet gamers in their 30's to 40's or above make up only 5-7% of the actual gaming population.
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Post by Zebulon »

moriarty777 wrote:
GACK!

As if it wasn't bad enough already... I took a look at all the 4th Ed stuff that you could pre-order which are planned to be released between now and the fall on Paizo!

This includes:

D&D Adventurer's Vault (HC) - Equipment and Items (magical and mundane)

D&D Martial Power (HC) - New options for Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, and Warlords... first in a line of supplements to give 100s of new options for D&D characters.

D&D Manual of the Planes (HC) - I don't think an explanation is needed for this one

D&D Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (HC) - ...or this one

D&D Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (HC) -

On top of all the other modules and other associated items. WOTC is definitely in full production. As 3rd party companies are just getting their product out the door, WOTC is making sure that they thoroughly choke the market first!

Long ago I foretold in some forgotten thread, that the plans for 4e were before all to sell even more books, and to push the game towards minis gaming as a way to sell even more stuff. It wasn't a great prophecy, even not a prophecy at all, just having the eyes open and succeeding a Wis check at CL -10 (yes, inferior to zero by 10 points ). In fact, this is what really irks me the most with this new edition. It's all but a scheme to milk money from the credulous gamer. This is very different from publishers like Troll Lords or Green Ronin who (at least I believe it) do it primarily for the love of gaming, and don't try to do things so as to force selling stuff in all manners they could think of. In fact I feel not only disappointed, but deceived by WotC. I guess 4e in itself could make for an acceptable minis game, vaguely usable as a rpg. However, my hate comes from this milking money aspect, with no respect for those customers who already bought dozens of 3.5 material and get there a non-compatible game (unlike Pathfinder).

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Post by yell0w_lantern »

I found the layout and the color scheme to be rather busy and confusing. I was on the fence after reading the positive in-game reviews but after skimming the PHB I was bewildered. I agree that it has an almost video game-like feel to it like you need ADHD to actually comprehend it.

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Re: Things I would have done for 4E...

Post by Jason »

khartsfield wrote:
While I normally dislike all things WotC, but the art in the new books, especially the MM, is pretty cool.

It is? Opinions obviously vary here.

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