Things I would have done for 4E...
Someone asked where it all went wrong. That point happened when Rab twisted Fiff's words around and got called on it. Since that defense was exposed for what it was, the only defense left was righteous indignation, coupled with a healthy dose of embarrassment. I'm honestly surprised that he didn't have a thicker skin, but I shouldn't be surprised, since I've been known to have a thin skin myself.
Unlike the Edition Wars days in Dragonsfoot, I'm not going to raise holy hell and/or a major stink over which edition is better. I simply don't care which is better because believe it or not, there are other games out there besides d20 Vista. I know the game isn't going to appeal to me because of one of its (unstated) design goals: to emulate MMORPGs in a paper and pencil environment. Since I don't like that kind of game, I know I'm not going to like the game system. Doesn't mean I can't steal some things from it.
In reality though, I have no need of stealing anything from that system. While I have a host of different game systems that I enjoy reading, my choice of games to actually play is rather small. Dungeons & Dragons, Castles & Crusades, Gamma World, Traveller, and Star Trek: The RPG (FASA) are the games that do it for me, especially since I grew up playing all of them (except Castles & Crusades of course).
Meh, I think my post is all over the place.
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Unlike the Edition Wars days in Dragonsfoot, I'm not going to raise holy hell and/or a major stink over which edition is better. I simply don't care which is better because believe it or not, there are other games out there besides d20 Vista. I know the game isn't going to appeal to me because of one of its (unstated) design goals: to emulate MMORPGs in a paper and pencil environment. Since I don't like that kind of game, I know I'm not going to like the game system. Doesn't mean I can't steal some things from it.
In reality though, I have no need of stealing anything from that system. While I have a host of different game systems that I enjoy reading, my choice of games to actually play is rather small. Dungeons & Dragons, Castles & Crusades, Gamma World, Traveller, and Star Trek: The RPG (FASA) are the games that do it for me, especially since I grew up playing all of them (except Castles & Crusades of course).
Meh, I think my post is all over the place.
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I still don't understand why everybody gets involved in posts like this? I never leads anywhere good, and the people involved for the most part feel that they need to point and counter-point every little disagreement. This ALWAYS leads to people (who think that they are the only ones having a civil conversation) getting flustered and leaving. Those of you who always get into these little debates knows that the same shit always happens, with the same result. The offended parties end up stomping off, and sometimes making the community as a whole a worse place.
Why don't y'all just give it up and go back to complaining about what is really the problem here, and that is the lack of the X (CKG, Basic C&C, CZ, etc).
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Why don't y'all just give it up and go back to complaining about what is really the problem here, and that is the lack of the X (CKG, Basic C&C, CZ, etc).
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@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
Well, I guess if it "always happens" we should definitely quit talking about internet etiquette and having open and friendly discourse.
Besides, I think Antonio/Rab will come back. He just needs time to think about it.
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Besides, I think Antonio/Rab will come back. He just needs time to think about it.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
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Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
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Personally I have enjoyed being able to have an objective discussion of 4e. Yeah, feathers got ruffled but it will pass. I say we keep trying and keep going. The discussions will die down once the new wears off.
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Wow - my home PC croaks over the weekend and I miss something big.
While I don't feel the need to justify myself, I will say that my intent in posting the "be careful" warning was not to single anyone out, but to warn people to be careful!
People can get their feathers ruffled over stupid little things. I did point out one statement of Rab's as an example of one that had a small bit of potential to rub folks the wrong way. I wasn't trying to accuse him of posting with bad form. I thought I was pretty clear on that.
Anyway, I thought it was the end of it when he said he agreed with my statement that everyone should be able to express themselves in a civil manner, but part of me thinks he left because we're still in disagreement as to what opinions should be allowable.
I hope he decides to come back. I won't delete his account unless he PMs me directly, and I don't think anyone else with the authority will do so either.
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While I don't feel the need to justify myself, I will say that my intent in posting the "be careful" warning was not to single anyone out, but to warn people to be careful!
People can get their feathers ruffled over stupid little things. I did point out one statement of Rab's as an example of one that had a small bit of potential to rub folks the wrong way. I wasn't trying to accuse him of posting with bad form. I thought I was pretty clear on that.
Anyway, I thought it was the end of it when he said he agreed with my statement that everyone should be able to express themselves in a civil manner, but part of me thinks he left because we're still in disagreement as to what opinions should be allowable.
I hope he decides to come back. I won't delete his account unless he PMs me directly, and I don't think anyone else with the authority will do so either.
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concobar wrote:
when you quote someone and then post a warning the implication is there.
What is more important - what I specifically said, or some nebulous "implication?"
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i think things got taken way out of context. I'm with Fiff on this. I really hope Rab comes back and we can put this behind us.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
I am surprised he hasn't. Maybe he is too embarrassed?
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
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I'm going to leave what I was going to say about discussions here about d20 Vista off the boards. It's up to rab to decide whether to come back, but I would hope he does, and I hope the board's reputation doesn't take too severe a hit over this.
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Quote:
I still don't understand why everybody gets involved in posts like this?
Because we unwashed masses who read long posts like this LOVE to see the blood flow and bodies littering the floor. I read this stuff just for the drama and death!
I say we need MORE blood,MORE arguments! More flurries of posts back and forth with paper thin cuts being given for each one!!
Sigh....gonna go check out ENworld now that you all seem to be done. My mornings just dont go right without a little blood.
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To get us back on track:
I was in my semi-local game shop today looking for TLG stuff. (No luck ) However I noticed two things. 1) The used section was mostly 3e and d20 stuff. And they had very little in the way of 4e. The PH was sold out but they had the others in. I was going to talk to the guys there about how it did but they are all people who think WOTC is the best thing ever so they would have spun it. I left with only buying dice for my daughter and deciding I would just order from TLG from now on.
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I was in my semi-local game shop today looking for TLG stuff. (No luck ) However I noticed two things. 1) The used section was mostly 3e and d20 stuff. And they had very little in the way of 4e. The PH was sold out but they had the others in. I was going to talk to the guys there about how it did but they are all people who think WOTC is the best thing ever so they would have spun it. I left with only buying dice for my daughter and deciding I would just order from TLG from now on.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Fiffergrund wrote:
What is more important - what I specifically said, or some nebulous "implication?"
/shrugs
I didn't think what you said was bad to be honest but I can see where someone could take it as directed at them when you quote a person and then add a warning in the same post. the implication is that you are responding to the text you quoted and that is how it seems rab took it.
Having been on the receiving end of the gang up that does happen here I can see why Rab would feel pretty pissed. I would bet he did not think his posts were very inflammatory and probably felt like he was being ganged up on. I mean, why post if all you have to say is "I agree with Fiff!" I would like to think there is a reason why you agree with Fiff and that these posts are not just knee jerk reaction like circling up the wagons.
I am a huge fan of C&C to be sure but having read the new 4th ed I can honestly say there are some really good changes in it and that 4ed is a huge improvement over 3rd ed. really though what do the mechanics of any of the editions matter when you think about it? All versions of D&D including C&C do the same thing. they provide a system for us to play make believe with.
Just to clarify for the new(er) folks out there....
During the original playtesting and rules creation for C&C Fiff and I usually found ourselves in agreement in many of the directions the rules took. I mentioned once that I agreed with Fiff. Others did too, and Fiff said something along the lines (either online or at a con) that he hated people agreeing with him so much.
So, to respect his feelings Indigo Rose and I subsequently agreed with him on the forum whenever possible.
Time has passed and we've all moved on. However when this thread started up Fiff made his replies here on this subject and I found myself in agreement with him again. So...I had to comment on it!
...and Serleran's merely still annoyed that the Knight class made it into C&C.
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During the original playtesting and rules creation for C&C Fiff and I usually found ourselves in agreement in many of the directions the rules took. I mentioned once that I agreed with Fiff. Others did too, and Fiff said something along the lines (either online or at a con) that he hated people agreeing with him so much.
So, to respect his feelings Indigo Rose and I subsequently agreed with him on the forum whenever possible.
Time has passed and we've all moved on. However when this thread started up Fiff made his replies here on this subject and I found myself in agreement with him again. So...I had to comment on it!
...and Serleran's merely still annoyed that the Knight class made it into C&C.
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And I'm just normally a grouchy smart ass that doesn't know anything about tact. So see all of us here have our good and bad points.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
concobar wrote:
I am a huge fan of C&C to be sure but having read the new 4th ed I can honestly say there are some really good changes in it and that 4ed is a huge improvement over 3rd ed. really though what do the mechanics of any of the editions matter when you think about it? All versions of D&D including C&C do the same thing. they provide a system for us to play make believe with.
Sorry, there's little that is good about the new fantasy gaming system by Hasbro. This red-headed stepchild finished the job that d20 Fantasy started, which was to destroy the archetypes that make Dungeons & Dragons what it is, and to reduce the DM's role from referee and arbiter of the universe to that guy who has the soda and pretzels. The game can virtually run itself now. That fits in with the video game on paper feel the designers were trying to emulate.
The mechanics DO matter because some mechanics make being able to play make believe easier than others.
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Traveller wrote:
This red-headed stepchild finished the job that d20 Fantasy started, which was to destroy the archetypes that make Dungeons & Dragons what it is, and to reduce the DM's role from referee and arbiter of the universe to that guy who has the soda and pretzels.
My favorite roleplaying system is OAD&D. C&C is a close second. But the most fully developed game worlds I ever played in, the most detailed and lovingly created, with deep plots and interesting characters, were both 3.x, and both were run by two of the strongest, classic style DMs I've ever gamed with. Of course, both were from the OAD&D school, but the system had nothing to do with the success of their campaigns. A DM succeeds or fails on his own, it's not relevant to system.
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serleran wrote:
Mechanics can matter - they set a tone, but a DM should always feel obligated to break them when needed. Unfortunately, a lot of newer players do not realize this, and think they are not allowed -- after all, the system doesn't exactly encourage it, often. Maybe that is what was meant...
This is true, and I have found that the system indirectly encourages second-guessing and rules-lawyering. Running a game can be complete hell unless the players accept the philosophy that the DM is always right. The problem is that the DM's authority went out the window right about the same time that some of the rules formerly reserved for DMs were placed in the PHB. I have noted in the 4E threads that this trend continues - magic item listings are now in the PHB, from what I understand.
Yeah yeah, I know players can't be trusted to keep their noses out of the DMG anyway...but it used to be a book where at least there was a perception that players SHOULDN'T look at it. That perception was eliminated at the advent of 3E, presumably to sell DMGs and MMs to people who have no business going anywhere near them.
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The fella I'm gaming with, who is taking up the reins as DM, was also my DM in high school and he was pretty hard core back then. One of his table rules was that players must not own or even look at the DMG. If you did either, you were booted from the game. So, the DMG was this big mystery to me for ages, until I finally picked up a copy years later.
Wes isn't so hard-core now.
Wes isn't so hard-core now.
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Realistically, it's difficult to encourage people to become DMs if they can't read the book. Considering how rare good DMs are, I don't really have a problem with someone wishing to own it.
The differences between the information contained in the books were very clearly defined, though. The PHB was the only stuff a player had. Now, it seems like players are encouraged to access all core books. When I was playing 3E, the debate went like this:
DM: I really don't like you guys owning and reading the MM.
Players: Unless you want to run them, we need the book to handle summoned monsters and animals.
DM: (thinks to self) Running the regular monsters is a PITA with all of the rules to consider. Running those would mean digging through the MM for an extra 10 minutes each fight getting stats and special abilities correct. If I don't these players will piss and moan until I do.
DM: (to players) *sigh* Very well.
This was *never* a problem in 1E/2E because stats just weren't that complicated.
A similar debate took place with magic items. The easy and transparent creation of magic items through feats caused a demand for access to lists of items that could be created. That's why they are sitting in the 4E PHB. Naturally, this is every single item, so there's very little mystery for the players unless the enterprising DM likes to make up stuff. Not to mention the potential for power creep. By the rules, it's not difficult to make powerful magic items as long as the right level is obtained. XP can be regained, especially with that +4 sword that just came off the anvil.
Try running a low-magic campaign with this stuff dangled like a carrot. When I was learning the game, I didn't even know items existed above +3 until I was older and started to DM. In 3E, it's more or less expected players will have one of these items as soon as they hit a certain level.
Things like this either have a huge impact, or have very little impact. Anyone used to the old way of doing things probably won't see much of an effect. I had newer players that developed a sense of entitlement because of the way these things were presented.
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The differences between the information contained in the books were very clearly defined, though. The PHB was the only stuff a player had. Now, it seems like players are encouraged to access all core books. When I was playing 3E, the debate went like this:
DM: I really don't like you guys owning and reading the MM.
Players: Unless you want to run them, we need the book to handle summoned monsters and animals.
DM: (thinks to self) Running the regular monsters is a PITA with all of the rules to consider. Running those would mean digging through the MM for an extra 10 minutes each fight getting stats and special abilities correct. If I don't these players will piss and moan until I do.
DM: (to players) *sigh* Very well.
This was *never* a problem in 1E/2E because stats just weren't that complicated.
A similar debate took place with magic items. The easy and transparent creation of magic items through feats caused a demand for access to lists of items that could be created. That's why they are sitting in the 4E PHB. Naturally, this is every single item, so there's very little mystery for the players unless the enterprising DM likes to make up stuff. Not to mention the potential for power creep. By the rules, it's not difficult to make powerful magic items as long as the right level is obtained. XP can be regained, especially with that +4 sword that just came off the anvil.
Try running a low-magic campaign with this stuff dangled like a carrot. When I was learning the game, I didn't even know items existed above +3 until I was older and started to DM. In 3E, it's more or less expected players will have one of these items as soon as they hit a certain level.
Things like this either have a huge impact, or have very little impact. Anyone used to the old way of doing things probably won't see much of an effect. I had newer players that developed a sense of entitlement because of the way these things were presented.
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Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Fiffergrund wrote:
A similar debate took place with magic items. The easy and transparent creation of magic items through feats caused a demand for access to lists of items that could be created. That's why they are sitting in the 4E PHB. Naturally, this is every single item, so there's very little mystery for the players unless the enterprising DM likes to make up stuff. Not to mention the potential for power creep. By the rules, it's not difficult to make powerful magic items as long as the right level is obtained. XP can be regained, especially with that +4 sword that just came off the anvil.
Excellent point. I have always made item creation a quest for the components and would do so in 4e if I ever run it. I like that the rules are there and simple but if the mage in the group wants to make that +4 sword he is going to need some ground up Medusa fangs for sharpness, some demons blood and maybe the fire of a dragon to forge it... lets throw in the tears of a pure virginal bride to be used to quench the blade.
Yeah yeah I may be going over the top with that list but believe me just paying some gold and passing the time in game will not be allowed in any game I run. Magic items are rare and special and each one past the lowest tier should have its own history. I did it that way in 1e, 2e, 3.x, C&C, and if i run 4e will continue.
Fiffergrund wrote:
Try running a low-magic campaign with this stuff dangled like a carrot. When I was learning the game, I didn't even know items existed above +3 until I was older and started to DM. In 3E, it's more or less expected players will have one of these items as soon as they hit a certain level.
Things like this either have a huge impact, or have very little impact. Anyone used to the old way of doing things probably won't see much of an effect. I had newer players that developed a sense of entitlement because of the way these things were presented.
I never could stand the way 3.x got after around lvl 7. just too much going on. 4e looks to be more simple but only time will tell.
serleran wrote:
No, like the Paladin, I can simply ignore it. It takes much more than "existence" to annoy me, though I do find the class uninteresting.
Well, the classes may be uninteresting, but the characters I have played have been extremely cool and fun to play.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
serleran wrote:
Yes, but they have to be inspiring before I'll play one - I don't find them that way. Others might, and obviously do, and good for them... everyone likes different things.
Yeah, it definitely helped that I didn't play one until I had a firm character concept in mind. One best completed by being a Paladin or Knight class.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Its at times like this, when my good friend Pazzazzu will just through in a "KFJ".....just to keep things interesting.
AoB
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What I would have done for 4e : Made a GSL that was actually usable.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06