Things I would have done for 4E...

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:25 am

Well now I don't know whether to be turned on or debate games.

On the 4th Ed. front though, I tried KotS and I made a character when my buddy bought the books and it was alright. Not something I'll run but will play if someone else wants to GM. There are some fun ideas in there and I've had a good time playing the module, its just not my cup of tea. I'll play virtually any game and I can usually find something fun in it to mine out for use in my games. The only games I've never enjoyed were diceless and ,though it may earn the enmity of some, I hate the Amber game (loved the books though). 4E is just a different creature and despite the hate has some merits and some flaws like any other game.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:47 am

DMed 4e, liked it, will continue playing it. And BECMI. And AD&D. And C&C. A name is just a name.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:58 pm

Same here. While I may be enjoying running 4e so far, it in no way means I'll be giving up my other games.

Fiffergrund · Post by **Fiffergrund** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:40 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
DMed 4e, liked it, will continue playing it. And BECMI. And AD&D. And C&C. A name is just a name.

While I can understand the sentiment, there are many that absolutely do not agree with it (myself included). So, I feel compelled to speak, and hopefully I get the point across.

I'm really saying this to everyone: be *VERY* careful in the tone used here. Being accepting of every game is great. There are two things I cannot stand, though:

1) People who use their "tolerance" as a wedge to stop discussion.

2) People who speak as if it is a universal truth that game "tolerance" is the "right" point of view.

While some can roll with whatever comes along, some people have taken the changes to the game they love over the years very personally. That doesn't give them the right to trash those that enjoy 4E, nor does it give the more "tolerant" among us the right to be dismissive of those that disagree.

Again, I'm not saying anyone has been doing anything wrong. I'd just suggest we all be extremely careful because I can see things going south verrrrry quickly if we aren't.
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MaxKaladin · Post by **MaxKaladin** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:44 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
*For the record. The "Old School" movement has left a very bad taste in my mouth with the number members that have turned the game into a religion and attack anyone for not thinking that their version of the game is superior in all ways.

I have similar feelings.

Since 4e was announced, there has been a fair bit of discussion about going back and doing some "old school" gaming in one of my groups. I started poking my nose into some of the "old school" corners of the net and I was very put off by the way certain versions of the game were treated as a religion. I was also put off by the special hostility some of the posters had toward 3e (and now 4e) and the people who play those editions.

Frankly, I decided I could do without the hate. Especially since I actually like 3e and am thus the enemy to that part of the old school community. It is one of the reasons I went with C&C.

Then again, I can remember when 2e was just as hated as 3e and 4e are now and I was told that I was lucky a poster didn't know where I lived because I dared to state that I disagreed with something Gygax wrote in the 1e DMG.

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:46 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
While I can understand the sentiment, there are many that absolutely do not agree with it (myself included). So, I feel compelled to speak, and hopefully I get the point across.

I'm really saying this to everyone: be *VERY* careful in the tone used here. Being accepting of every game is great. There are two things I cannot stand, though:

1) People who use their "tolerance" as a wedge to stop discussion.

2) People who speak as if it is a universal truth that game "tolerance" is the "right" point of view.

While some can roll with whatever comes along, some people have taken the changes to the game they love over the years very personally. That doesn't give them the right to trash those that enjoy 4E, nor does it give the more "tolerant" among us the right to be dismissive of those that disagree.

Again, I'm not saying anyone has been doing anything wrong. I'd just suggest we all be extremely careful because I can see things going south verrrrry quickly if we aren't.

Well said. However, I don't think anyone here can be described as a fanboy of 4E. Since this is a house-forum, I'm sure it would be a much easier case to claim that someone is a C&C fan-boy (or girl). Again, not saying that anyone is, just that here, on a TLG forum, 4E is the underdog.....Let's be respectful of that in this discussion.

4E and C&C both do things well.....just different things (and likely equally valuable). Let's keep that in mind.

Best to Each and All,

~AoB
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:42 pm

adaen wrote:
I don't think anyone here can be described as a fanboy of 4E.

I guess I should not mention my pinups of the core book covers that I look at while an elven (my bad, Eladrin) dominatrix spanks me then.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:08 am

I am a C&C fan boy.

I dont hate 4th ed D&D though.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:17 am

I'm a D&D fanboy who loves all things D&D, I consider C&C to be D&D, so that makes me a C&C fanboy.

I'm really enjoying 4e, ALOT, but I don't consider myself a fanboy.

Hmmmm. Is that saying something? I'm not a 3e fanboy either

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:17 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I guess I should not mention my pinups of the core book covers that I look at while an elven (my bad, Eladrin) dominatrix spanks me then.

Good Stuff, DD!
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:22 am

I post here more than anywhere other, but that's because of the conversation. I do so love good conversation.

All kidding aside, it is very rare to find a house-forum that isn't uber-partial to the house product. It is only slightly less rare to find a house-forum that isn't unjustifiably anti-"the newest flavor".

I've found this board surprisingly balanced and receptive to both sides of the coin (esp. considering it is a house-forum). I'm hoping it stays that way....I'm sure we all do.

Best,

~AoB
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:40 am

In Redneck Rampage there was a classic scene where the old man rises from his chair as you are chasing some aliens bent on abducting good ol' Betsy the cow, where he points his shotgun at you, fires, and yells "Get off my land!" That, my friends, is the call of the Grognard.

MaxKaladin · Post by **MaxKaladin** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:02 am

serleran wrote:
In Redneck Rampage there was a classic scene where the old man rises from his chair as you are chasing some aliens bent on abducting good ol' Betsy the cow, where he points his shotgun at you, fires, and yells "Get off my land!" That, my friends, is the call of the Grognard.

There has been many jokes in one of my gaming groups about how we need to practice shouting "Get off my lawn!" now that we're "old grognards"...

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:48 am

adaen wrote:
I post here more than anywhere other, but that's because of the conversation. I do so love good conversation.

Ayup. I visit a lot of boards and this is one of the few that I actually post on. Good folks here.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:17 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
While some can roll with whatever comes along, some people have taken the changes to the game they love over the years very personally.

This is interesting.

Fiffergrund · Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:58 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
This is interesting.

You might disagree. You might not even like it. It's just the way it is.

The ability for one person to keep an open mind while the game changes doesn't invalidate the next person's right to be downright disgusted at the same changes. And, building on that, if we allow people to speak about how open-minded they are, we should have tolerance for those that disagree.

Within the rules of respect and decorum, of course.

Insisting that the truth of the matter is or should be otherwise is what starts arguments that do real damage to a community. That's what happened in Edition Wars on DF.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:52 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
While I can understand the sentiment, there are many that absolutely do not agree with it (myself included). So, I feel compelled to speak, and hopefully I get the point across.

I'm really saying this to everyone: be *VERY* careful in the tone used here. Being accepting of every game is great. There are two things I cannot stand, though:

1) People who use their "tolerance" as a wedge to stop discussion.

2) People who speak as if it is a universal truth that game "tolerance" is the "right" point of view.

While some can roll with whatever comes along, some people have taken the changes to the game they love over the years very personally. That doesn't give them the right to trash those that enjoy 4E, nor does it give the more "tolerant" among us the right to be dismissive of those that disagree.

Again, I'm not saying anyone has been doing anything wrong. I'd just suggest we all be extremely careful because I can see things going south verrrrry quickly if we aren't.

I am not sure I get the significance of your statements. Which of these is true?

1) Everyone is entitled to his opinion. (Lapalissian, I would say)

2) Everyone is entitled to his opinion BUT hatefests have the same "value" as tolerance.

If I say that I enjoy playing whatever version of D&D, I must be careful since I might ruff some feathers?

The problem is that "hate" automatically results into offence, whereas tolerance not. By definition.

And Edition Wars are only born of hate (for one version or the other) NOT from tolerance. So, those who have the right to manifest disgust for an edition, enter into conflict with those others who have the right to manifest disgust for another edition.

If everyone says "play whatever you want", it is impossible to have Edition Wars. Now, putting disgust and tolerance on the same level, is weird to say the least.

Anyway, I will always be of the opinion that as long as one is having fun, he cannot be wrong (whatever the edition, whatever the opinions of the others). I might not like a game, but I surely do not go around insulting those that do.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:57 pm

Rab,

You read like you are intentionally missing the point. You certainly rearranged what Fiff said just to set up your own counter argument. All Fiff is saying is as long as everyone follows the rules of good manners no one is going to get offended. Or at least shouldn't. I know people who insist on feeling insulted no matter what. One of whom is my father in law.

Changing the meaning of things people say in an attempt to make your argument look good is bad manners as well.

So we can all voice our opinions, but we should all try to do it without insults, condenscending tones, and other such things. Granted we all have "bad days" etc... but then we should still be big enough people to come back and apologize.

All the "edition wars" I have seen have all been due to people who couldn't show good manners. People who couldn't accept others thinking differently than they do, and getting mean about it.
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Fiffergrund · Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:23 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I am not sure I get the significance of your statements. Which of these is true?

1) Everyone is entitled to his opinion. (Lapalissian, I would say)

2) Everyone is entitled to his opinion BUT hatefests have the same "value" as tolerance.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I never said "hatefests", as you put it, have the same value as tolerance. I've actually been very clear that disagreements should still be handled with respect. I also said that tolerance goes both ways. There is a very clear difference between those positions, and the one that you are attributing to my statements.

Quote:
If I say that I enjoy playing whatever version of D&D, I must be careful since I might ruff some feathers?

No. This is not what I said. I said that no one did anything wrong. I also said that people should be careful what they say, because opinions differ. I also said that people who dislike the changes to the game have a place at the forum alongside those who like them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Saying that you enjoy playing whatever version of D&D is one thing. Saying it as if anyone not holding the same view is intolerant and wrong is another. No one has done that yet, but it's coming. It always does. I just wanted to warn everyone so we could avoid that path.

Quote:
The problem is that "hate" automatically results into offence, whereas tolerance not. By definition.

Another strawman. I never said anything about allowing "hate" a place at the table. Then again, if you're going to define "hate" as "anything I don't agree with", then maybe I can understand where this is coming from.

Quote:
Now, putting disgust and tolerance on the same level, is weird to say the least.

Having an open mind means being respectful of *all* points of view. I pointed out that there are those in the community who become irritated when someone comes off as dismissive of their feelings on the matter. I find nothing in those statements that puts "disgust" and "tolerance" on the same level. Instead, try reading it so that "my opinion" and "your opinion" are on the same level, and then we'll be getting somewhere.

Tolerance is about respect, and broadening the mind, and understanding points of view, isn't it? Well, if we can sit here and respectfully read why you love 4E, why is it so "interesting" and apparently difficult to respectfully understand why someone might express a deeply personal negative reaction, maybe even disgust?

Quote:
Anyway, I will always be of the opinion that as long as one is having fun, he cannot be wrong (whatever the edition, whatever the opinions of the others). I might not like a game, but I surely do not go around insulting those that do.

Did I insult anyone? No, I specifically called for respect.

Did I say you were wrong for liking 4E? No, I did not.

If you can provide examples of where I said otherwise, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, these are just more strawmen to add to the pile.

Let me be perfectly clear on this. I will not accept an environment where people feel they cannot voice their opinions respectfully, whatever those opinions happen to be. That is, and has been my position. If you disagree with that, feel free to discuss further. Otherwise, I consider the matter closed.
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Fiffergrund · Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:28 pm

Treebore wrote:
Rab,

You read like you are intentionally missing the point. You certainly rearranged what Fiff said just to set up your own counter argument. All Fiff is saying is as long as everyone follows the rules of good manners no one is going to get offended. Or at least shouldn't. I know people who insist on feeling insulted no matter what. One of whom is my father in law.

Changing the meaning of things people say in an attempt to make your argument look good is bad manners as well.

So we can all voice our opinions, but we should all try to do it without insults, condenscending tones, and other such things. Granted we all have "bad days" etc... but then we should still be big enough people to come back and apologize.

All the "edition wars" I have seen have all been due to people who couldn't show good manners. People who couldn't accept others thinking differently than they do, and getting mean about it.

QFT. If I had seen this post before, I would have left it at that. As it is, I can't let my carefully crafted counter argument (alliteration not intended) go unposted.
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He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:34 pm

When do we just admit I am right? Seriously. I've been waiting.

Oh, wait... no, that's for a different board. My bad. Sorry. Move along.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:00 pm

My opinion?

....wait for it...

....wait for it...

...I agree with Fiffergrund!!!
(Sorry, gratuitous Playtest humor there. )
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:13 am

sieg wrote:
I agree with Fiffergrund!!!

Suck up.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:11 pm

Treebore wrote:
Rab,

You read like you are intentionally missing the point. You certainly rearranged what Fiff said just to set up your own counter argument. All Fiff is saying is as long as everyone follows the rules of good manners no one is going to get offended. Or at least shouldn't. I know people who insist on feeling insulted no matter what. One of whom is my father in law.

Changing the meaning of things people say in an attempt to make your argument look good is bad manners as well.

So we can all voice our opinions, but we should all try to do it without insults, condenscending tones, and other such things. Granted we all have "bad days" etc... but then we should still be big enough people to come back and apologize.

All the "edition wars" I have seen have all been due to people who couldn't show good manners. People who couldn't accept others thinking differently than they do, and getting mean about it.

Yes, apparently I missed the point of the post. Since it is obviously by chance that Fiffergrund's post addressed my post in which I say that I love playing a varied set of games.

I STILL miss the point of WHY he had to address my post.

I consider Fiffergrund's post to be a clear example of not having good manners, since evidently my statement that it is fair to play whatever floats your boat can somehow "disrupt" feelings (his feelings for sure, it seems).

If "tolerance" is not "right" (as he says),

Quote:
People who speak as if it is a universal truth that game "tolerance" is the "right" point of view.

can someone (you perhaps, Treebore?) explain me what is "right"?

It seems there is lots of people here who holds private rights to Right and Truth. It would be kind to educate the unwashed masses.

Thanks

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:12 pm

serleran wrote:
When do we just admit I am right? Seriously. I've been waiting.
Oh, wait... no, that's for a different board. My bad. Sorry. Move along.

no no, you are on the right board. you are right

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:30 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
Let me be perfectly clear on this. I will not accept an environment where people feel they cannot voice their opinions respectfully, whatever those opinions happen to be. That is, and has been my position. If you disagree with that, feel free to discuss further. Otherwise, I consider the matter closed.

QFT.

Neither will I accept it. Matter closed.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:42 pm

Now that I think of it, please do not bother answering, anyone; I will not read the answer, so it will be pointless (to the moderators or whoever is responsible, feel free to delete my account).

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:31 pm

WTF ?

This thread started off as a good thread... Good points and critiques were brought up. For the most part I thought it *was* a good thread. Then something went horribly wrong.

I hope Antonio reconsiders his position (of wanting his account deleted) since there is little to be gained or even lost from this.

I'd also be happy to see this thread locked... though not necessarily deleted unless there is a way someone (anyone) can pull up from this one.

M
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Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:05 am

Yikes!

I wasn't sure what went wrong either, so I had to go back and carefully read through the last two pages of the thread.

I think (and this is only my opinion) I see what happened, but I could be wrong.
1. Rabindrinath was a tad offended because Fiffergrund quoted him when posting his statement of caution (even though I don't think Fiffergrund's point was to single Rabindrinath out).

2. I also think that there was some confusion between "game tolerance" (I like every game, therefore I am right) and "tolerance of opinion" (I disagree with you, but I respect your right to your opinion).
It can be tough to express oneself through text alone, because the reader will sometimes associate a meaning or tone to the words that was not intended by the author. I think Fiffergrund's whole point was that we should just be mindful of that when posting here, so that we don't devolve into violent dueling, like that nasty romance novel thread!
-Fox

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:35 am

I am sorry Rab is leaving. I wrongly thought he was one of the few able to be big enough to take the feedback and go forward.

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