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Re-Reading AWD 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re-Reading AWD
Some of you know I have pledged myself to C&C for 101 days. Part of that pledge is re-reading the AWD folio while trying to suspend my initial prejudices I have had about the setting. I have given the text a nice once over to get familiar with it and have now begun my in depth read while taking notes on things I like, dislike and would change if I ran the setting. I started this thread to share with you what I have found and to discuss some of the things that come to mind while re-reading the material. All are invited to participate and I hope Steve and Davis will come in to answer questions I or we may have.

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Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
One question before you begin: are you studying AWD in isolation (as I suppose someone just grabbing it off the shelves would have to), with Codex of Erde as a backdrop to fill in the blanks, and/or with any Airdhe exposition from modules in the Blacktooth Ridge, Darkenfold, Sea Towns of Ihlsa, etc?

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Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:22 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I'm starting with AWD as I want to take that work for what it is and on it's own merit. Later I may turn to the Codex if I come away from AWD with a different view of the setting than I had before. Basically, I am giving it another chance since there were a few things that caused me not to like the setting. I am seeing if that has changed.

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Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
The After Winter's Dark folio never impressed me from a content standpoint. It looks pretty cool, but needs a serious layout upgrade of the core material. The maps are nice as well as the heraldry. Unfortunately the main text of these books is not as pretty as the presentation folio and creates somewhat of a lackluster experience for an otherwise very cool setting.

But...

Combine the AWD Folio with the newer maps of Aihrde and the whole experience gets much deeper. I wish TLG could combine the AWD Folio with the big new map sets some how. Though the interior of the AWD books would still need a layout adjustment (with a little pop-bang, like page borders), I think the maps involved you have a really classy, full blown setting.

~O

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:35 am
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
The map in the folio remains one of the main reasons I want to try to reconcile my problems with the setting. The maps are some of the best I have seen. I haven't seen the newest ones yet but I have every reason to believe that they are top notch.

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 am
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Post History
From my first skim through the book I noticed that if you do not read the section on the history of Aihrde, a lot of things in the book lack proper context. So, in order to gain that context I read the history section first. The first thing I will say is that I liked this trimmed down version of the history much better than the history presented in the Codex of Erde and I feel it gives the CK much more breathing room to work.

The section is well written, engaging and an interesting read. However, to me, there are problems. The settings I have ran in the past kept their history brief and to the point. The early incarnations of Greyhawk and The Forgotten Realms left much of the history for the DM to develop giving only the barest framework. In my opinion, too much of the history is taken over by legend and is so entrenched in the setting that it makes it hard for the CK to adjust.

Where I feel the history both falls apart and becomes constraining is within the Winter Dark itself. While I know this is the 'hook' of the setting it becomes an obstacle that is hard to deal with. The end of the Winter Dark is only 60 years before the campaign begins and has a 1000 year history. The problem is that if I wanted to do an adventure like the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth I would have to factor the Winter Dark into it which is something I don't want to constantly have to do.

Another problem with this would be in the playing of demi-human Character. Given the lifespans of some demi-humans there would be some PC's that would remember this time and could give the CK problems if he had not thought this through. In my opinion the WD should be far enough back that PC demi-humans should not be able to remember it.

Finally, I wish there had been more on the WD itself. There is only vague descriptions of what the nature of this event was. There are many questions unanswered here and given the detail in other places I was disappointed to see this glossed over. Was it a 1000 year long winter's night? Was it more like an overcast winter's day? How did the people survive when there would be no food for animals let alone themselves? How did the people get things like water or wood for fires? While it makes a nice plot point it begins to break down in a kind of 'Fridge Logic' and really should have been addressed more than it was. (As a point of note I did skim through the Codex and found that the problem exists there as well.)

To be honest, my biggest problem with the setting was with the history and how it is tied to the setting. While the history presented in the folio fixes many of the problems I had with the Codex I still feel it is constraining to development by the CK. Moving forward you can do all sorts of things but moving backward and trying to come up with a history for a dungeon or adventure there is always the shadow of having to work within a certain paradigm that I do not like to have in a setting. With other settings you can ignore whole aspects and still have a decent game, with Aihrde if you ignore something you have to rework whole parts of the setting.

I have to be honest here, if I were to run the setting there would have to be many changes in the history for me to be comfortable with it. I would have to make the entire history section as written by an unreliable narrator and make changes to the timeline. One of which would be the WD ending at least 200 years before the campaign begins and making it more of a legend than fact. By doing so I fear that I would spoil the intent of the setting.

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:25 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
What's wrong with making the history unreliable, as much legend as fact? It works that way in Real Life; why not in fantasy?

Of course I'm not coming at it with the same desires as you. Am I correct in that you want to know the facts of the world, laws of nature and historical facts nailed down, or at least with enough leeway for you to nail down these things before you start gaming with the world?

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I would rather have a list of basic facts on the history and then nail down the legends and flavor myself. Take Greyhawk for example. What you have is a history that begins with a calamity and ends with a recent battle. However, it is painted in broad strokes and there is no legend or detailed chronicling done. Myths, legends and such are left to the DM to decide on.

The feel I get from the history is one of 'this is the only way it happened'. I may be reading it wrong but that is what I took away from it. So, making the history unreliable is the only way I can go with it.

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:39 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
Sounds perfectly reasonable, and what I use myself. I have always assumed that the printed pages of fantasy (and much of newspaper "facts") were as much hearsay and legend as they were facts. For instance(s), every news story in which I was involved, got many (not just a few) facts absolutely WRONG. If you remember the scene in The Front Page/His Gal Friday where all the reporters rush to the phones and phone in entirely different stories about the condemned man, you have a good example of how news and written history seems to work in Real Life.

Assuming, of course, that this IS Real Life we're living! :lol:

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Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:03 pm
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Post Re: History
Julian Grimm wrote:
... make changes to the timeline. One of which would be the WD ending at least 200 years before the campaign begins ...



Where did I hear that before ???? ;)

Oh yeah last Friday 8-)

Like I said I love the setting, but just have to bump the timeline 200ish years that way the winter dark is history just on the edge of being "living history" - (Edit to say what I meant too) ... A few grand dads were able to hear stories from their dads or grand dads who were young ones at the end, but no ruler was there and many have forgotten the bad that was the cold dark

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Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:05 am
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
If I were to do that I would insert another war between the young kingdoms that would lead to the establishment of nations like Outremer, Kayomar and Maine. This way those nations being born in war would still be preserved but still be able to keep the WD further in the past.

Luckily the next two sections I have read will get a better 'grade' than what I gave the history.

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Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:15 am
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Post Geography and Cultural Landscape
After reading the History section I felt I had the context I needed to go on. I went back to the beginning of the book and read the sections on Geography and Cultural Landscape. In a nutshell I found them both very well written and evocative. I really only have minor quibbles with them and that took nothing away as they were more personal preference than anything.

The Geography section is a great read and coverage of areas beyond the Cradle of the World gives enough information to begin with but allows for massive expansion from the CK. The opening section is a bit confusing. The Wall of Worlds and Shroud of Darkness could have done with a bit more clear explanation. Since I tend to usually tweak the cosmology of any world I run this is really of no concern but could be an issue for those wanting to run the setting by the book.

As I said above the section on the other lands is very well written and in a format that I wish had been carried over to the entries on the nations. I could easily see myself setting up a campaign on Ianuk, Alanti or Surne with no problems. There are some interesting ideas in each of the entries and the one I found most interesting is that the home of the Nordic Pantheon was on Aihrde. All in all I think that this section shines.

Similarly the section on the oceans and other bodies of water are well done giving only the needed information. I do wish the Inner Sea had been covered here as it crosses both halves of the map. All in all it was a good section and gave a good 'jump point' to work from.

The next two sections are on Ethrum and Aenochia and contain information on the major geographical features of both areas. They are also well written and give the perfect amount of information for these areas. The only question I really had was on the Inner Sea and if it was a fresh or salt water sea. My only quibble here is that I have grown to not like the geography sections separate from the nation entries. I was a bit spoiled by the 3e Forgotten Realms hardback which covered the geography and nations together in regional entries. It kept from doing too much page flipping and I liked it very well.

I think I would have liked this better had the nations of Ethrum been covered with the geography of Ethrum so that I would not have to be going between the maps and flipping book pages constantly. Personal tastes aside, the entire geography section is strong and put together well.

Next we have the Cultural Landscape. Really this is just the calendar and a break down of the races. Again this is very well written and each entry gives just enough information to really play these races well. You get a sense of what being an Elf in Aihrde is like or how a dwarf thinks. I also like that the dwarves pretty much spawned most of the playable races and were among the first races on the world. It's a nice move away from elves being the first in all setting.

The first problem I have here is that the writing kind of goes into the 'orcs are people too' area. The writing on the orcs, trolls, goblins and giants is almost sympathetic and makes it hard to use them as the evil marauders that they should be and makes them less than evil. If these are the guys that helped dominate the world for 1000 years and served a god of pure evil the idea of sympathizing with them would not cross many minds. While the information is nice I think that the innate evil of these races should have been highlighted a bit more.

The second problem is one I have encountered with friends that have read the book. They ask the same question inevitably, "So does this mean I can play a (goblin, orc, troll)?". This is second only to the question on if there are stat differences between a Katha or Naida human. By including some of these races in this section it seems to hint that all of these races are playable. While I may not have a problem with a redeemed tribe of goblins or an orc that follows good, others may have a problem with that. I think there should have been a more clear demarcation between what is playable or not.

Again, minor issues aside, this was an excellent section and one that really gets you into the feel of the world. Mixing these race descriptions with what is in the PHB gets you deeper into the world and helps to really play a race in the world. Good writing mixed with some new ideas helps this shine and shine well.

These two sections are probably the best two sections of the whole book and I would even suggest the race section to be read for any world.

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Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:09 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I had forgot about this with my internet outage. I will get back on it soon.

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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I do enjoy your take in AWD. So it is appreciated.

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Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:46 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
Cracked open the Cosmology and Gods section. Basically, this is like watching paint dry for me. I hope to have this section read soon. :|

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Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:57 am
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Post Cosmological Landscape
I have long held the belief that Aihrde would work best as a literary setting than it would a game setting. One reason has been my above mentioned issues with the history of the world. The other is the entirety of the cosmology section. My most skipped area in any campaign setting is usually the sections on gods and the planes. This was no different when I first bought AWD and I found that I had to force myself through this section.

A disclaimer before I continue: In the past few years I have had a falling out with the idea of every setting having to have some form of Hellenistic pantheon or multiple pantheons. I feel the idea has been done to death and am looking for something fresh. So there is some bias here. To continue. . .

If you're looking for a fresh take on cosmology and pantheons you will be disappointed. AWD continues what I feel is a tired tradition of pseudo-Hellenistic pantheons and regurgitated planar lore from every setting made for pre-2000 D&D and it's offshoots. While the deities are specific to Aihrde it would not take much work to move in any deity from any other setting in the place of the Aihrde gods. Any setting handling the topic has become so formulaic in this regard that the gods of one setting are fully interchangeable with the gods of another. The usual problem of Christian styled clerics and paladins in a multi-deity pantheon applies to Aihrde just as it does with Greyhawk, Blackmoor, The Forgotten Realms and other settings.

While some attempt is made at differentiation by explaining orders of gods this does not come off so well. The result is confusing especially when there are suggestions that elves belong to the same order as some of the higher gods. The whole thing is a nice attempt but needs more clearly defined lines of what is what. As it stands the orders of gods feel like a half-hearted attempt at mimicking Tolkien's pantheon. This could have worked if more care had been taken in the execution of the idea.


As for the planes, again there is nothing new here. There is an attempt at explaining them and how each plane fits into the overall universe. The explanation of how the planes fit together is confusing and has the same failings any other setting or sourcebook dealing with the subject. The descriptions of certain planes does work and saves the section. I would have rather had more on the unique planes of Aihrde rather than the explanation of how they fit together.

The section on heavenly bodies is interesting reading but draws on more literary than game concepts. It really serves as an extension of the history of the world more than it does the understanding of the day. Again, I look to the original Greyhawk folio for how that should have been treated. Light astronomical and astrological explanations regarding number of planets, year lengths and such would have been more preferable that the continuation of an already heavy handed history.

In all honesty I wish the whole of these sections had been trimmed to about five pages at most so there would have been more room on the actual nations themselves.The exact nature of the crusade in New Aenoch, tensions between Maine and Kayomar and such would have been more welcome to me than what was presented in this section.

All in all I feel it was one of the weakest sections of the book and left me cold.


Next: The Booklet on Gods, Guilds and Timeline plus final thoughts.

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Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:58 pm
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Post The Second Booklet and Final Thoughts
The booklet titled Cosmology,Time-Line,Guilds & Gods serves more as an appendix rather than a whole book. The book opens with six pages that seems to be a repeat on the planes section of the main book. I have no idea why this was done and will not speculate. After my last experience with this I just skipped ahead.

The next section is the time-line of the world. At the risk of sounding hypocritical I did like this section. The main reason is that it serves as an outline for points that I would change should I decide to run the setting. There really isn't much else here to comment on.

A page and a half covers guilds and languages of the world. I really wish the guilds had been expanded as I tend to use organizations pertaining to the world I am running regularly. Languages is a mixed bag. I tend to gloss the point over but, if you're the type of CK that uses this for flavor it is very helpful.

The final section is more material on the gods. This is geared more for specialty priests of each deity and could be helpful. There really isn't much here.


Final Thoughts

After Winter's Dark is a mixed bag for me. There are some really good things here. I like the maps, and the section on the nations themselves. I really wish the history had been scaled back more and certain things like gods and planes excised completely. What keeps this from being a truly great product for me is that it seems more like a guide to a literary world (look at books like the guide to Pern or many of the books on Middle Earth) than it does a game setting.

If I were to run a game in Aihrde, there would have to be some revisions. As I mentioned before I would take a knife to the history, scale back the races to those in the C&C Player's Handbook and expand on many of the national entries. The pantheon would be reset to something I liked better and I would more than likely adopt the 4e set up for the planes. Expansions to the astrological and astronomical bodies would come and most of the mythology would be scaled back to being more flavor than anything.

In all honesty, I would have rather seen this done as very similar to the Greyhawk folio in content (with more on the nations and politics) or have had a Gazetteer on New Aenochia since that seems to be where most of C&C's default material takes place.

Aihrde could become a world I like if only a few changes could be made to it.


So what's next? I have split between starting a thread on what my ideal version of Aihrde would be for a campaign or going through the D20 version of the Codex. I am really leaning toward the former but would crack the Codex open if enough of you wanted my take on it.

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Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:30 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I'd like to read your take on a perfected Aihrde. Since each of us will and should adapt this raw data into our own forms, formats, and worlds - it would be helpful to see how you do it. We've seen Steve's version - at least, the one which was published in 2007, and I'm anxious to see what the newer Codex will look like.

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Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:36 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
I wouldn't call it 'perfected' more like a revised version or my own take on the setting. Call it 'Grimm's Aihrde' if you like. :)

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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
While I use the Erde setting, like any setting, I never use a setting "as is". I never adhere to "canon". No matter the setting, even Greyhawk. I follow the advice of "make it your own" in all things RPG related.

That said, I had the same questions about the "Winter Dark". As you point out the world cannot survive through 1,000 years of a real winter, with deep snows, etc... So I changed that to just mean the period of time in which Unklar rules. That time being a dark time, where the souls of the people become as cold as winter with all the fear, oppression, and death. Hence, "The Winter Dark". The climate largely remains the same as far as I am concerned. The seasons change, crops grow and are harvested, etc...

I did toy with having it actually be snow and cold, and that Unklar, being the God that he is, created new food sources on which all his needed creatures and servants could live on even in a winter climate. I scrapped that as it made the world too fantastical for what I wanted. Plus I did not want to figure out all the write ups I would need for such foods. So I opted for the metaphorical spiritual sense of "Winter Dark".

As for the gods, I completely agree. While I do keep a number of them for setting flavor reasons, I also allow many other gods. Just all of the histories do have to revolve around the realities Unklar causes. So I do pay a certain amount of "lip service" to the official setting history and religious history, I have also greatly altered it. Which is not all that crazy since the setting itself does have an island dedicated to the Norse Gods, and the island nation of the Faerie opens the doors to other pantheons I like to use. So while Unklar dominates the history in the immediate area, as you get further and further away Unklar becomes less and less dominant, and eventually even becomes unknown. Since I have filled in the areas beyond the basic map with other settings I like, this works pretty well. The island/continent of the Faerie has been fun for me as well, since I have had the opportunity to really put a lot of resources to use in this area, that I have ignored in the past because I have never had an official area in the setting to just go wild with these resources and the ideas they have given me. So now I have Wenefar be much more prominent in all the setting areas I use, and one day I will lure a group of players and their PC's to the lands she rules.

So while I totally agree there are a number of weakness' to the over all setting, I found it worth bolstering its strengths and running with them. So now the setting, my version of it, is among my most favorite settings. All of which I have altered from what their "canon" is. Whether its Greyhawk, Faerun, Wilderlands, Kalamar, and now Erde. "Canon" is always what I decide it is. Like was mentioned above, the so called "official" histories published by the various companies is still just a template. I decide what is real and what is legend, and I reveal that to my players as the various campaigns I run within these worlds unfolds. Nothing is concrete to me until I reveal it as such within my campaigns. Until then, it is all fluid and subject to change according to my whims and needs.

So by all means, make Erde your "own". Nothing is "canon" until you say it is.

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Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:28 pm
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Post Re: Re-Reading AWD
You nailed it on the head. I will give the setting another look to decide on changes. Right now, I am running a campaign set just after the Greyhawk Wars and want to see where that goes before I look at AWD again.

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