My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

The Worlds of Aihrde (Erde), Inzae, their history, game play and more.
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Omote
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Post by Omote »

Oh my, who would really tabulate such data other then possibly the publishers themselves. That is some crazy statistics.

....................................Omote

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Post by Julian Grimm »

I find it funny that over the years errors have went down but the criticisms have moved up.
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Post by Treebore »

Omote wrote:
Oh my, who would really tabulate such data other then possibly the publishers themselves. That is some crazy statistics.

....................................Omote

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RPG's are not the only "industry" to attract hyper anal people.
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Post by serleran »

Porn does that too.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
Porn does that too.

You would have to point that out, wouldn't you?

You couldn't stop yourself.

It was like a vampire dominated your mind, and there was no way to resist doing it.

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Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by serleran »

Yes, the impaling by wood was needed for my stake in the rear-end of this discussion.

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Post by Ghul »

Rhuvein wrote:
Heh, I listen to Peter too.

After all he is the embodiment of reasoning, thoughtfulness, keen insight, intelligence, fairness, moderation, charisma, good looks, charm, wealth, stature, leadership, artistic ability and patience ~ among other things!
No really!

Did you say "good looks"?

--Ghul

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Post by Omote »

serleran wrote:
Yes, the impaling by wood was needed for my stake in the rear-end of this discussion.

Wow, I'm just going to keep away from this discussion with my ten-foot pole.

...................................Omote

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Post by Troll Lord »

Treebore wrote:
Hey, do you know what the "standard" rate of errors is in the industry at large? I know such data has to be somewhere, but I didn't find them.

FYI I found 19 errors in the folio which comes to .380 errors per page, and the third print PH has an error rate of .088 errors per page.

So I want to see if there is an industry standard about such error rates.

Interesting. A couple of points.

1) There aren't any industry statistics on the customer base other than a WoTC survey done of their customers several years ago which has massive statistical flaws. So to hope there are industry editing standards is like crapping in a toilet paper roll and hoping to use it. LOL

2) I think you have to do your rates per page, but you have to include the average number of words per page. If you compare a page of LIon in the Ropes you get like 300 words a page, Codex of Erde I think (its been years since I checked it) is like 600 words per page. So 2 errors per page in Lion would be drastically different than 2 per page in the Codex.

3) There seems to be an extraordinarily large number of professional technical writers and editors playing this game! ha

4) The option of farming an ms. to more than one editor is like publishing suicide. The first individual would take two weeks to do it, so would the second. The third would have his mother's brother aunt's uncle get a cigarette burn on her Sunday morning church dress and his dog would die so he would take five weeks. The fourth would edit half of it, crack out on meth and turn over some jumbled pieces of an ms that might or might not be edited. The fifth would vanish from the earth....You see where I'm going with this. It would take an insane amount of months to get that done.

5) Volunteers don't work. I know you (and by You I mean anyone who is thinking they might) think that they do. But I would have no aeffective (that's my new way of spelling that word) way of controlling them and making them meet deadlines. Plus they have no motive other than altruistic ones. And altruistic motives can only sustain Nuns and the Amish.

6) I think that with 19 mistakes in the Aihrde folio book is fine considering that a quick test run of two pages showed 900 words per page.

7) That said, the editor (Nicole) who has worked on the last 10 books or so, including all of the HH books, just informed me she's out of the game for a bit so I'm looking for another editor. I will probably give Josh more work if he's able (he worked on the CC version of Vakhund and More Beasts of Legend).

8) I've said this once before, though I'm not sure where. We've hired professional editors and paid them VERY good money. The works in question still had errors. Editors and accountants are in the same business, they are so technical that there is no way to safeguard yourself against their mistakes unless you hire another editor/accountant. I know every one of you who thinks you are a good editor (and I'm sure you are good editors) will argue this point, but I've had that argument with my accountant...and fired him. So the editing continues to be a struggle, for all of us small publishers who can't hire an editing staff.

9) Its not that we've given up on editors. We've yet to find an editor (other than Nicole and Josh) that we are relatively happy with.

Steve
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Post by Alcahaelas »

Reasonable points, certainly. You have to do what you feel is best for your company and you certainly have the experience and history to know what works for you and what doesn't. If you become inclined to give somebody new a shot then maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, or maybe you'll reaffirm your dissatisfaction. Life is like that. One thing is certain, you'll never get what you're looking for if you stop looking.

I hope you find some good editors/proofreaders eventually, if that is your desire. I like the style of C&C and plan on purchasing more materials now that I'm putting my GM (CK) hat on again after a 10 year absence from the RPG genre. My new group of players are full of energy and interest; I foresee a long campaign for these young guys. The editing issues I've encountered will not put me (or them) off in the least, I can overlook them and know that the quality of the material, from a creative standpoint, is quite good. The errors in the text are just a minor itch, easily scratched. I'll say no more about it unless it's within the context of somebody else's post or if directly queried.

Cheers.
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Post by Troll Lord »

And don't for a moment think I'm not appreciative of any and all of these discussions. And you are more than welcome to continue to point out problems, because if I don't know they are there, I can't fix them. My above post was not directed at you in the least, other than as a general response to a discussion that happens too frequently.

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Post by Alcahaelas »

I've taken no offense from anyone here, even Julian. I hope TLG continues to put out good material so I can take advantage of the selection to drive my new C&C campaign. I also appreciate the loyalty of the forum members, some more tactful than others.
I don't think I will want to point out more editing issues though. It's obvious you guys all know about them and to discuss it invites more negativity. Seems to be a moot point and I don't want to irritate anyone here, that was not my intention. I'd help out from an editor/proofreader perspective but as a gamer/customer I don't see the need to belabor the point beyond this discussion thread. I wasn't aware it was a repetitive topic and, seemingly, a dead horse.

If you do get a wild hair someday and want to go out on a limb, take chance, roll those troll knuckles...well, you know where to reach me.
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Post by Brutorz Bill »

Personally I haven't found any errors in a Troll Lords product that have taken away from my overall enjoyment of said product. The prices of their products are Great, if that means I have to "tolerate" an occasional mis-spelled word or typo here and there, then so be it.

Just my 2 cents,

Bill

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Post by Treebore »

Alcahaelas wrote:
I've taken no offense from anyone here, even Julian. I hope TLG continues to put out good material so I can take advantage of the selection to drive my new C&C campaign. I also appreciate the loyalty of the forum members, some more tactful than others.
I don't think I will want to point out more editing issues though. It's obvious you guys all know about them and to discuss it invites more negativity. Seems to be a moot point and I don't want to irritate anyone here, that was not my intention. I'd help out from an editor/proofreader perspective but as a gamer/customer I don't see the need to belabor the point beyond this discussion thread. I wasn't aware it was a repetitive topic and, seemingly, a dead horse.

If you do get a wild hair someday and want to go out on a limb, take chance, roll those troll knuckles...well, you know where to reach me.

No, Steve asked that you keep pointing them out. Like he said, he doesn't know they are there if we don't.

The only negativity I have about it is when they claim numerous errors like its a plague, and then don't say what, where, how many, etc...

Thats not helpful, thats just negativity.

Telling what the errors are and where is helping the Trolls to improve the product if it ever gets reprinted.

Your right Steve, I was only looking at errors per page. Errors per word count would be much lower. I was looking at it per page because of how they have been described as "riddled with errors".

As for editing, I am no pro, but I will be happy to contribute to the errata lists as I find them.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by slimykuotoan »

You know it's funny.

I strangely, really, really like this product.

The folder is nifty, I somehow 'got' the "this little extra book will be good for my players" thing, and I loooovvee the vagueness of the maps/descriptions.

I think it's because I liked the Greyhawk boxed set for these reasons.

I can make Aihrde anything I want, and change its future through my games, without a lot of preconceived detail getting in the way.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

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Post by Treebore »

slimykuotoan wrote:
You know it's funny.

I strangely, really, really like this product.

The folder is nifty, I somehow 'got' the "this little extra book will be good for my players" thing, and I loooovvee the vagueness of the maps/descriptions.

I think it's because I liked the Greyhawk boxed set for these reasons.

I can make Aihrde anything I want, and change its future through my games, without a lot of preconceived detail getting in the way.

Yep. This setting is exactly what those who dislike/hate the over detail of Faerun should love, and those who like the detail of Faerun would dislike or hate.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Coming from someone who was a huge Faerun fan I do find Airdhe to be a breath of fresh air. I finally burned out on FR after trying to struggle with too much canon ( I know ignorable but not easy), using the setting for most of my gaming career and several..uh...points of contention with the moral values the creator of the setting.

It took a bit but Airdhe clicked with me as far as being able to use it for my ends and not the ends of meta-plot and money grabbing designers over detailing a setting to make a profit. So officially Airdhe is my world of choice.
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Post by Zudrak »

slimykuotoan wrote:
You know it's funny.

I strangely, really, really like this product.

The folder is nifty, I somehow 'got' the "this little extra book will be good for my players" thing, and I loooovvee the vagueness of the maps/descriptions.

I think it's because I liked the Greyhawk boxed set for these reasons.

I can make Aihrde anything I want, and change its future through my games, without a lot of preconceived detail getting in the way.

As a Greyhawkophile, I am encouraged by your review, slimy. I ordered it as part of the 12th Day of Christmas sale. I am looking forward to it now. Thanks!
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Post by slimykuotoan »

Yeah, there's a lot of potential for some great games there.

'Greyhawkophile'...that's what I am...now I have a name for it!
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Airdhe is a nice big blank slate for C&C games. The lack of meta-anything, nice open areas for player and CK development and an excellent and epic backdrop for the adventures. What more could new players, those wanting to start fresh or even veterans want in a setting?
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Post by slimykuotoan »

davidw wrote:
Even so, I still enjoy the products. They demonstrate a passion for a certain style of game.

Sentence splice!

Sorry, I do agree with you though.
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Post by Kos »

This thread started as critticism but has gotten me more interested in this setting. I'v always been a Greyhawker for similar reasons. I also enjoy 1e Realms. With respect to "cannon" in Faerun I've always treated novels and such as "factual fiction". To explain; I state to players that the accounts in such books are like The Adventures of Baron Munchaussen, or The Once and Future King, real charachters in fictional (or at least unreliable) tales. It works for me.
Besides noooobody likes the Time of troubles.

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Post by moriarty777 »

Kos wrote:
This thread started as critticism but has gotten me more interested in this setting. I'v always been a Greyhawker for similar reasons. I also enjoy 1e Realms. With respect to "cannon" in Faerun I've always treated novels and such as "factual fiction". To explain; I state to players that the accounts in such books are like The Adventures of Baron Munchaussen, or The Once and Future King, real charachters in fictional (or at least unreliable) tales. It works for me.
Besides noooobody likes the Time of troubles.

Hate to disagree with ya, but...

I had nothing wrong with the Time of Troubles. The Forgotten Realms Hardcover was fantastic with how they differentiated the specialist priests and the module adventure trilogy that dealt with the Time of Troubles were pretty good.

I will say that, for me this is where my campaign timeline greatly diverged from theirs. I didn't like where they headed the setting from that point on and, now that I think about it, the FR Adventures book was pretty much the last of the FR game books I bought.

I used the end of the Time of Troubles to start a major campaign arc of my own creation and I found it to be a perfect break from what was considered canon.

Now... many years later, I play in Airdhe / Erde setting with a sense of freedom and excitement in same way that I used to have when I looked through the old FR stuff.

M
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