My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

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E.T.Smith

My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

Post by E.T.Smith »

Recently, I stated some pretty damning things about the new After Winters Dark product over on rpgnet. The discussion has been civil and Mr. Troll himself, Steve Chenault, has taken time to address my issues over there. However, Treebore, who also posts aver there, took me to task for not bringing my comments to the main TLG forums. So here they are.

Rather than dumping the whole spiel a second time, I'll just direct you to check out the rpgnet D20 forums, where the discussion (as of this writing) is still on the first page. I'd post a link, but apparently I'm still too noob here.

Now, before any of the Honor Guard start sharpening a pike on which to plant my head let me state definitively that I remain convinced that my complaints are objectively valid. Yet, I also remain convinced that C&C is a good game and TLG is a class act. My issues are with the singular product (well, and The Crusader to).

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Post by Treebore »

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=360140
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Re: My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

Post by gideon_thorne »

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=360140

The relevant link in question. I have naught to add save that, IMHO, there's no such thing as 'objective' when it comes to the arts, either literary or artistic.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Though some may see me as one of the Honor Guard... here's a link:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=360140

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*EDIT* ... OK, seems I'm not the only one on the board... we now have multiple links to get there! lol

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Man.. some of us, me included, need to get a life.. thats three people, in under a minute, that have posted the same link.
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Re: My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

Post by E.T.Smith »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I have naught to add save that, IMHO, there's no such thing as 'objective' when it comes to the arts, either literary or artistic. :lol: ;)

Fair enough. Say instead of "objectively" then "by reasonable subjective criteria". Claiming objectivity was just quicker.

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Post by moriarty777 »

I've read the thread and I as yet cannot comment on the Folio one way or the other since it's on way.

(Please Mr.Postman... don't screw me over with this package!)

However, it does paint a bit of a picture of what to and what not to expect. I figure I'll be satisfied with the product overall but I know I'm a bit more forgiving too. However, that's more because I *really* dig the campaign setting and fell in love with it ever since I thumbed through the original After Winter Dark CS accessory.

The one comment that stuck out in my head for me was the blank inside covers. Though this is certainly a question of opinion and aesthetics, something simple to fill the space might have been nice. In the original After Winter Dark CS they had (what I call) the 'Erde' song on the inside front cover and they had a time line on the inside back cover. I don't know if these are replicated somewhere else in the folio but that certainly would have been cool. I don't know if that would have been hard to do (print-wise) though.

However, there were other comments in the thread (spanning 4 pages thus far) which were less than constructive. One example was the direction TLG was taking with modules compared to actual source books. That's simple preference. The endless myriad of sourcebooks and accessories is what killed AD&D for me during 2nd Edition and it didn't win WOTC any favors in my book either. I love the modules they've been putting out though.

On the flip side, I know there are many that don't care for the modules and are simply 'dying' for more accessories and rule flavors.

Bottom line... such things steered away from the points which the original poster were trying to get at. Steve did take time out to address some of these things that was pointed out which helped bring the topic 'back home again'.

At any rate, thanks for bringing this thread to my attention!

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Re: My Criticisms of After Winters Dark

Post by Tadhg »

E.T.Smith wrote:
Recently, I stated some pretty damning things about the new After Winters Dark product over on rpgnet. The discussion has been civil and Mr. Troll himself, Steve Chenault, has taken time to address my issues over there. However, Treebore, who also posts aver there, took me to task for not bringing my comments to the main TLG forums. So here they are.

Rather than dumping the whole spiel a second time, I'll just direct you to check out the rpgnet D20 forums, where the discussion (as of this writing) is still on the first page. I'd post a link, but apparently I'm still too noob here.

Now, before any of the Honor Guard start sharpening a pike on which to plant my head let me state definitively that I remain convinced that my complaints are objectively valid. Yet, I also remain convinced that C&C is a good game and TLG is a class act. My issues are with the singular product (well, and The Crusader to).

I think it's fine that you posted your comments over there, since you've been going there for years and maybe you feel more comfortable there. But I'm glad you did come over here to do the same.

I'll just say that I don't think anyone here has any issues with you posting criticisms of a TLG product, as long it's not trolling or mean spirited. And I didn't get that impression from your thread over there.

I did indeed post a few messages in your thread at RPGnet, but essentially I agree with any consumer having the right to comment or criticize a product that they are not happy with.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Any comment I may have right now would not be appropriate for this forum. I will comment at a later date when I am not in a b*tchy-I wanna argue pointlessly with somebody mood.
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Post by Omote »

*shrugs* Eh, different strokes for different folks and all that. Some people just like the simple, nature of TLG's products. Errors are inevitable but there is nothing wrong with wanting tighter quality control.

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Post by Treebore »

Personally I am not concerned with a .375 per page error average. Of all of those "errors" only 3 really bother me. The river and lake not being drawn in on the map, and the one section (The Wilds) covered in Western Aenochia when it should have been in Eastern Ethrum section.

The rest were very mild irritants that I quickly forgot after I listed them.

Even so I kind of like the fact that I get to determine what the lake and river looks like.

So I only consider the location of the "The Wilds" write up being a true problem/mistake. The river and lake should be fixed if a second printing is ever done.

I think the material is still very good and very useable, and don't get why people would hold these 18 or 19 errors as good enough reasons to not like the material.

The main thing that I missed in this write up is the "flavors" that came through in the d20 Codex. I didn't get the feeling of the Dwarves being German, the Elves being French, the Goblins being African, etc...

They came across as much more "vanilla" this time around. Which makes me glad I have the Codex to refresh my memory of those flavorings.
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Post by Rigon »

Treebore wrote:
The main thing that I missed in this write up is the "flavors" that came through in the d20 Codex. I didn't get the feeling of the Dwarves being German, the Elves being French, the Goblins being African, etc...

They came across as much more "vanilla" this time around. Which makes me glad I have the Codex to refresh my memory of those flavorings.

You know that's what's been tickling the back of my mind about the Folio. Thanks Treebore.

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Post by E.T.Smith »

Treebore wrote:
Personally I am not concerned with a .375 per page error average. Of all of those "errors" only 3 really bother me. The river and lake not being drawn in on the map, and the one section (The Wilds) covered in Western Aenochia when it should have been in Eastern Ethrum section...I think the material is still very good and very useable, and don't get why people would hold these 18 or 19 errors as good enough reasons to not like the material.

Your ".375" is not definitive. I saw your list of typos over on rpg.net, and could easily add more to it. If we wanted to be petty, we could declare a community effort and I'm sure the number would jump even more. Actually, in my opinion that's what TLG should have done in the first place with this and all their other products: hand the manuscript over to a dozen volunteer proof-readers in exchange for a free final copy and editting credit. Any typos that got through would be their fault then.

You are right that individually, no, the typos aren't a big deal and none of them are so bad as to render passages illegible. But to a lot of folks, me included, they're speed bumps that trip us up while reading the text, taking us out of contemplation of the conceptual content. And each new one encountered raises doubts about the overall quality of the product, makes one wonder how careful the writer was and become more critical of other minor mistakes. The worst part is that, unlike printing errors or distribution problems, its preventable mistake; Seeing them leaves the impression that the editor just didn't bother.

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Post by Treebore »

E.T.Smith wrote:
Your ".375" is not definitive. I saw your list of typos over on rpg.net, and could easily add more to it. If we wanted to be petty, we could declare a community effort and I'm sure the number would jump even more. Actually, in my opinion that's what TLG should have done in the first place with this and all their other products: hand the manuscript over to a dozen volunteer proof-readers in exchange for a free final copy and editting credit. Any typos that got through would be their fault then.

You are right that individually, no, the typos aren't a big deal and none of them are so bad as to render passages illegible. But to a lot of folks, me included, they're speed bumps that trip us up while reading the text, taking us out of contemplation of the conceptual content. And each new one encountered raises doubts about the overall quality of the product, makes one wonder how careful the writer was and become more critical of other minor mistakes. The worst part is that, unlike printing errors or distribution problems, its preventable mistake; Seeing them leaves the impression that the editor just didn't bother.

If you can add a lot more to it I would love to see the list. I compiled my list looking for such errors, so I would really like to know what I missed.

I spent several hours reading this with a "fine tooth comb" just to see what the complaints are about, so I would really like to see what problems I totally missed.
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Post by Troll Lord »

Treebore wrote:
The main thing that I missed in this write up is the "flavors" that came through in the d20 Codex. I didn't get the feeling of the Dwarves being German, the Elves being French, the Goblins being African, etc...

They came across as much more "vanilla" this time around. Which makes me glad I have the Codex to refresh my memory of those flavorings.

Much of this was purposely left out for space reasons. I was really shooting for a streamlined version of the setting so people can get into it and play it fast. What was trimmed, which I wish we didn't have to, was the combined histories of the races. Meaning a lengthy treatment of the dwarves in a separate section, the elves, gnomes etc etc. The elves got a decent treatment but only because they are so confusing with the running away and what not
But, next up for Airhde, and probably closer than I realize is what to do with the Full setting. PDf downloads would be nice and eventually a full box set, with the maps Smith was missing and all the cut histories, cultural material etc from the Codex.

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Post by Rigon »

Thanks for the insight, Steve. Now get cracking on those PDFs and the Boxed Set!
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
hand the manuscript over to a dozen volunteer proof-readers in exchange for a free final copy and editting credit.

Do you think that is economically viable? No, really.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
Do you think that is economically viable? No, really.

I'd be happy with a promised free PDF copy to go with anything I actually buy the print version of.

Plus "employee rate" on what I do buy, not having to wait for sales.

As for real pay? Well, if TLG ever gets big enough I would just appreciate it becoming a fairly paid job.
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Post by serleran »

*dies laughing*

I wish I were as optimistic as you. Reality is such a whore.

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Post by E.T.Smith »

serleran wrote:
Do you think that is economically viable? No, really.

Definitely, because I've seen that method in practice from other publishers. Heck, I've been a proofreader on such projects. A roughly formatted, unillustrated pdf gets emailed out to the volunteers. The volunteers have to submit real names and addresses and agree not to distribute the work. They get about two to four weeks to proofread and, if applicable, playtest the document. They send back a list of noted errors and suggested revisions and in exchange get a mention on the credits page and a free copy of the final product. Obviously, the revision report has to be substantial enough to warrant a prize. Someone whose total input is "there's an extra comma on page one; gimmie" can be justifiablely booted from the comp list. Also, at best two-thirds of the people who offer to proofread will actually do so by the deadline.

Adding up wholesale costs and shipping, that's less than a hundred bucks for an ad-hoc proofreading staff as opposed to that plus a hundred more for a professional proofreader (assuming you get a real proofreader, and not just some grad-schooler posting on Craigslist). It also has the added bonuses of increasing fan involvement and increasing word of mouth about the release. The knee-jerk opposition to this is fear that some slime will renig their agreement and start distributing the rough draft, allegedly hurting sales. I'd say this is a negligible risk, and most fans would rather pay for the polished end product anyway. A more justified concern is that it adds some lag to the realease schedule.

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Post by serleran »

You might think the cost is negligible, and it may be, in overall terms... but, in terms of sales, which lead to profit, that means less money the Trolls have for the next product. Imagine: if they have 1000 copies of product X and it costs 8,000 to print it (factoring in art, author fees, whatever,) they then charge the consumer $12.95 to buy, for a nice little profit of around $5 per sold copy. Now, if they give 80 of them away (to themselves, the author proofreaders, promotionals, partners...,) that's $400 they don't get. If these copies don't sell immediately that $400 becomes a hole, affecting the amount of money they have to make the next product.. which either means, they don't release something, or they release something with a higher cost, or, they try to make a lot of capital (sale, anyone?) so they can afford to produce the next item. And, we're not even factoring in the costs of shipping this stuff, or marketing it. All of which are additional expenses, but mandatory.

This is just simple economics. "Other publishers" might have more of a budget to work with, or they might have more of an initial sales boom when they release product X... but I highly, highly, doubt they do what you suggest on every release, unless they are WotC.

I do agree that it is possible, with a very small base, but not "a dozen." The problem is finding people who will actually do what they say they'll do.

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Post by E.T.Smith »

I think that's a ridiculously pessimistic scenario. How in the world did you justify inflating a dozen comps into $400 of lost pofit? I never suggested as ridiculous a number as 80 give-aways; that's your own invention.

As for the 'Other Publishers' I mentioned they were also very small press operations. This method was used precisely because it was a no budget option.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

2 to 4 weeks! Man... I wish I had that much time to get art and layout done...
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Post by Alcahaelas »

serleran wrote:
I do agree that it is possible, with a very small base, but not "a dozen." The problem is finding people who will actually do what they say they'll do.

If somebody doesn't live up to an agreement then the agreement is broken and you replace them with somebody else. That includes quality of work. In your scenario, if somebody is obviously not putting forth adequate effort then you boot 'em and find somebody else that will do a better job. Give people a chance--eventually you'll have a core stable of able editors/proofreaders that will do a damn fine job and really help polish up the fine offerings the company is putting out. There is no debate on the quality of ideas and creativity within the published products.

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Post by E.T.Smith »

gideon_thorne wrote:
2 to 4 weeks! Man... I wish I had that much time to get art and layout done... :damnfunny

You can read that as "2 weeks for proofreading, 4 weeks if playtesting is needed". But as I said, it adds some lag, though of course the writers can be working on it the same time the volunteers are.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

After rereading the initial gripes I really see nothing but petty nitpicks other than objective criticisms. It really reads like a d20 fanboy denouncing C&C. Just my objective opinion, of course.
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Post by Alcahaelas »

Julian Grimm wrote:
After rereading the initial gripes I really see nothing but petty nitpicks other than objective criticisms. It really reads like a d20 fanboy denouncing C&C. Just my objective opinion, of course.

To anyone who's not "embedded" in C&C, the commentary does have some valid points, especially about the editing part. Putting forth a professional product really does mean something; that doesn't mean full color and glossy pages, that means polished, edited and consistent. As the publisher I would be concerned with the numerous comments about the editing and how that drives people away from buying first editions because they know it will contain many typos and confusing inconsistencies. It may seem like a little thing to those who are accustomed to overlooking the flaws but to many customers it's an element that may decide whether they are repeat customers--or, given word of mouth about products, whether they are a first time customer. I would think that's sufficient motivation to clean things up a bit and make sure references are consistent and not confusing.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

E.T.Smith wrote:
You can read that as "2 weeks for proofreading, 4 weeks if playtesting is needed". But as I said, it adds some lag, though of course the writers can be working on it the same time the volunteers are.

*smiles* The point I'm getting at, is that there is seldom that much time.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Alcahaelas wrote:
To anyone who's not "embedded" in C&C, the commentary does have some valid points, especially about the editing part. Putting forth a professional product really does mean something; that doesn't mean full color and glossy pages, that means polished, edited and consistent. As the publisher I would be concerned with the numerous comments about the editing and how that drives people away from buying first editions because they know it will contain many typos and confusing inconsistencies. It may seem like a little thing to those who are accustomed to overlooking the flaws but to many customers it's an element that may decide whether they are repeat customers--or, given word of mouth about products, whether they are a first time customer. I would think that's sufficient motivation to clean things up a bit and make sure references are consistent and not confusing.

I think that looses it's validity when you see that this was one of TLG's more hotly sold products this year. The point is there are too many 'critics' and 'grammar experts' running around these days.

If you 'experts' and 'professional editors' can do something better then quit posting and get to work on a product. Other wise keep quiet about it.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
I never suggested as ridiculous a number as 80 give-aways; that's your own invention.

Oh, is it now? Funny, as that is a low number, considering the "industry average" at 3 - 5 copies gratis to all involved, especially author and the like. It might be high for certain books, but for the majority, it is very low... and, there is also the whole "do I submit to EnNies" stuff. Then, we're not even talking about people who get paid in product who aren't even involved with the product itself... so, 80, while it seems "ridiculous" is very far from it.

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