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C&C Player's Guide to the Wilderlands of High Adventure 
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Ulthal

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Post C&C Player's Guide to the Wilderlands of High Adventure
So what does everyone think at this point about a Player's Guide to the Wilderlands of High Adventure? I've had enough calls for it recently that I think it is maybe necessary at this point. The problem is that doing it would either A) delay the Journal and Campaign Installments, or B) more likely require that it BE a Campaign Installment, say, the 2nd installment, which would push the Player's Guide to the Roglaras back to the 3rd installment. I'd considered this before but there seemed not to be enough interest. That seems to have changed.

If there is enough interest here, I will send an e-mail out to the subscribers to see what the overall consensus is, and base my decision on response to that...
Player's Guide to the Wilderlands of High Adventure

48 pages, saddle-stitched, $12 MSRP
Myth, Legend, and History of the Wilderlands: This is fairly general, and depicted as characters would know it, for the whole district of the Wilderlands proper. The PGW from Necro included a lot of secret stuff that was really Judges Only, and would not include that (such would be in the Judges Gazetteer of the WoHA, a companion piece to this). The "history" in this section would begin with the Imperial Age of Viridistan; everything before would be Myth and Legend...
Races of the Wilderlands: Includes the major races of Man and other demihuman and humanoid races; these would be general details for the most part, as specific changes would take up way too much room (as I'm finding out in the Southern Reaches book). But it would be more than enough to get started. This would include languages of the Wilderlands.
New Classes: This would include new C&C classes that are found pretty much Wilderlands-wide. Alchemist, Amazon warrior, sage, and witch for certain. Possibly also the anti-paladin, courtesan, and pirate. Maybe the alternate Wilderlands barbarian and some notes on special abilities (my version) if space permits.
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Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:35 am
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Ungern
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James, I just subscribed earlier this evening. I do not own the boxed set from necro but the feedback I've seen on the first Journal got me to bite the bullet.

So from my point of view a player's guide would be a big plus. I'm starting up a Fantasy Grounds 2 C&C game with my old group in late March and I'll probably be using the Wilderlands for the setting... the players guide would only help in the long run (won't be in my hands in time for the campaign start but thats OK


Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:41 am
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Ulthal

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James, put me down for at least five of them. More, if the couples in my group don't feel like sharing.

Seriously. Wilderlands is our preferred setting by far, and right now there's only one D20 Players Guide to pass around. [And I'm stingy.]


Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:07 am
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Renegade Mage
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Hi James, as a subscriber, I would be very happy to see / receive a Player's Guide as the 2nd campaign installment (Option B). I really like the idea of new classes and class variants. Besides, if it frees up a bit of space in the other supplements or journals which could be used to expand on other material instead, it clearly becomes a win-win in my book.

The supplement might do very well independently too and may even garner more interest in a subscription to get even more!

On a personal note, I'd be inclined to order a second copy of this particular supplement too.

M
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Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:16 am
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Cleric of Zagyg
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I'll buy this in a heartbeat and I'm OK with either way of doing it!
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Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:21 am
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Mogrl

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Option B will be fine with me too.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:53 am
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Skobbit

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I don't have all of the information as to the releases in front of me but here is what I envision as a great help and resource going forward.

While reading AGP #1 if I didn't understand something or was unfamiliar with some term, I wanted to be able to look it up. Rules wise this would mean looking in C&C phb and/or C&C M&T. If it wasn't there I was at a loss and could start scouring the net if I really wanted to know but that could be time consuming and possibly fruitless.

If the term/phrase was not rules specific but setting specific and it was not fleshed out in AGP #1 then I had to go elsewhere. I have Necro's releases but am unfamiliar with them and do not have any of the old Judges Guild stuff. And AGP #1 as well as those to follow might not cooincide with previous Wilderlands publications anyway.

So, I would really like a universal WoHA player's guide or maybe "Setting" guide to outline the kind of info that can't be found rules-wise in the C&C core, and fluff-wise in the AGP publication where the info appears. The guide of course doesn't need to include every race or class or even rule especially if such info is more specific to a particular sub-region. That is perfect for your more focused Player's and Judge's guides. But for something spanning multiple sub-regions or all of the Wilderlands, a background setting like publication would be wonderful. That way only those new concepts appearing in future installments need be fully explained in the publication in which they appear.

Hopefully my explanation makes some sense. I won't try to be any more specific about individual topics as there are likely many.

Thanks,

Eric.


Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:50 pm
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Hlobane Orc

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I'd be up for that! I'd prefer Option B. (Also check that every Wilderlands specific term that's appeared in AGJ to date appears in the Guide, and if you use new terms in future that aren't in the Guide, define them in AGJ as you go along.)
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Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:22 pm
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Hlobane Orc
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I think Option B is the way to go. As someone new to the Wilderlands, I've really enjoyed reading everything that has been released thus far but don't have enough context to easily make use of it. A Player's Guide (and Judges' Guide, for that matter) would be terrific additions that would let me make the most of everything else to come.

As a subscriber, I'd be very happy to see those inserted into the queue after the Southern Reaches products are released.
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:29 am
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Ungern

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James,

1. I do NOT think it would be a good idea to intentionally delay the Journal and Campaign Installments.

2. In any case, I would HATE to see those beautiful Wilderlands maps you and Peter are doing get delayed in the slightest. Regardless of everything else, please try to release those maps at least one every two months.

3. I would like to see the Journal with 90%+ Wilderlands content. You could always dole out the classes, races, etc. in the Journal. After all, Dragon magazine back in the good ol' days did that. My favorite thing back then was for an issue to have a new class or two in it. But a dozen classes in one issue might have been too much of a good thing. It's fun to look forward to "the X class", coming in the next issue. Anticipation is part of the fun.


Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:16 am
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Mist Elf

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I am tolerant of the idea, although my preference is for something more "immediately usable" at first. So if there is demand, release it... but probably not as the 1st or 2nd installment.

Then again, this is just my (selfish) opinion.


Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:26 pm
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Ulthal
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I'm with Melan, I think. I like the idea of a player's guide, but I would prefer to see it as a separate product ... one, however, that didn't impede the schedule of the AGP products. That is, I want to have my cake and eat it to. If forced to choose - either a Player's Guide or 'new' material in the AGP line - I'd delay the Player's Guide until you've built in some lag time. That is, I'm more excited about new campaign installments than I am (another) Player's Guide. But this is admittedly a very personal and arguably selfish opinion.

G

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Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:38 am
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Ulthal

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Unfortunately, there is no possible way to do the PG Wilderlands without it either delaying current production entirely or being part of the current schedule as a Campaign Installment. I'm a one-man shop as far as the Wilderlands goes... so if I am working on one project, it means others are not being worked on...

That said, the schedule of Campaign Installments/Player's Guides was always merely a working schedule, so a one-issue push won't make too much difference...
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:58 am
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Mogrl

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I'm pretty sure your PG won't look like "another PG" when all is said and done. Plus its good to have such a guide early on, so the CK has it to give to their players when the campaign starts.

Plus I would like it if its actually written as a "primer" for the Wilderlands. Meaning it contains general knowledge that most players would likely know. Maybe even break it into sections, because Clerics would know more about certain things, wizards more about others, etc...

Plus when you write up information that is historical, religious, etc... it would be nice if you could give a suggested CL modifier for a knowledge check. Like right after a tidbit of info put (CL10) to indicate it should be fairly difficult to very difficult to obtain/know the information. (CL5) would mean pretty easy, but not general knowledge, (CL15) would indicate very difficult, and (CL20) would be nearly impossible to know. No (CL) given would indicate that its pretty general knowledge.

Anyways, I love the Journal even more than I expected too, so just keep it up and I'll be happy.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:32 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Quote:
Treebore wrote:
Plus when you write up information that is historical, religious, etc... it would be nice if you could give a suggested CL modifier for a knowledge check. Like right after a tidbit of info put (CL10) to indicate it should be fairly difficult to very difficult to obtain/know the information. (CL5) would mean pretty easy, but not general knowledge, (CL15) would indicate very difficult, and (CL20) would be nearly impossible to know. No (CL) given would indicate that its pretty general knowledge.



This is a superb idea. James, I hope you'll consider using it. Thanks Treebore!
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:47 pm
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Lore Drake

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I am completely new to the Wilderlands, I only own the 3.5 player's book (bought new for only 3$), but I was quite put off by all the 3.x material in it.

So, if you are going to release a C&C version of that book, I will definitely buy it!

Oh, I would prefer it to be a completely separate product (together with a Judge version). Something akin to the Classic D&D Gazetteers; I like a setting to be described, but not in absolute minimal details.


Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:26 pm
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Ungern

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Players Guide to the Wilderlands of High Adventure -

Well, I'm in the definite maybe camp!
Of course I'll likely buy it, if and when it comes out. I'd rather not see the Campaign Installments pushed back, at least not the first 2 or 3. But the essential question for me at this point is will I use it in my game anytime soon?

I'm probably in the minority - I usually am - but having several new character classes, be they unique to the Wilderlands or not, in a PG isn't something that I"m actually going to use much. My group and I are old schoolers that never put much stock in the belief held by TSR in the later years, or by WotC today, that there's anything inherantly wrong with the core classes, nor do I feel like the game is incomplete with "just" the core classes. An occasional new class is fine, I guess, but it isn't going to see much use in our campaign.

Now, as for more information on the Wilderlands itself, and Treebore's thoughts about a primer with specific rumors, legends, regional histories, myths, half-truths and such, you bet I'll be interested in that. Yes please - I'd like two helpings of that kind of material! That is material I can put to use in my next gaming session.

Also, I'd like to see more information about the other regions, or Districts, making up the primary continent (Rhadamanthia) on which the Wilderlands is located. Have these Districts been developed at all? Have the high-level map outlines been given any attention? Could we get a glimpse of these areas by having an overview map (say an 8 1/2" x 11" map per District), kind of like the one in the Necromancer PG to the Wilderlands? That would also be useful in my games.

Also, a campanion publication for Judges that further expanded upon these themes for the Wilderlands would get a lot of use in my games.


Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:57 pm
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Lore Drake

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I too am not too fond of new classes and races. Rather, I prefer that the existing classes and races are put into the context of the setting and given a "local" flavor.


Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:25 pm
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Renegade Mage
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Well, though I've thrown my support for the idea of a Player's Guide being released as a Campaign Installment (option B), I've got another suggestion I'll throw in.

As someone else already mentioned, including the various classes and relevant bits in various journals is a way to go, and if this option were chosen I'd go one step further. After the stuff has been released in journals, say over the course of a year, simply compile and reprint them as a Player's Guide. The only problem that I see with that is there may be significant less interest in getting the Player's Guide if one already owned all the journals these got printed in, in the first place.

That said, I still prefer option B which I selected originally.

M
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:34 pm
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Mogrl

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Quote:
rabindranath72 wrote:
I too am not too fond of new classes and races. Rather, I prefer that the existing classes and races are put into the context of the setting and given a "local" flavor.



The way I look at it, any class James writes up will be taking the archetype and changing things around to fit the "local flavor".

Thats the way I look at the Netbook of C&C classes, its just rewrites of the archetype classes to give a specific flavor.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:29 pm
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Unkbartig

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I'd buy either one, but option B would be preferable IMO.
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:34 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
sieg wrote:
I'd buy either one, but option B would be preferable IMO.



I agree with Sieg.
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:54 pm
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Ulthal

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Okay, here's the way it is going to work...

After looking over all the posts for and against, and after perusing Casey's discussion here:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

I have decided that I will *not* be doing a Player's Guide to the Wilderlands at this time.

First, as to classes, in products I will use only the Core C&C classes; when an NPC is specially themed in some way (i.e., a "necromancer" or "witch," etc.) they will get special abilities toward that kind of "theme."

As Casey mentions, this keeps it simple for people who are new to the game, and also makes sure that judges do not have to own a couple different supplements just to use one WoHA book. Each WoHA book should be useable straight from the PHB and M&T.

That said, as to classes, I will include new and variant classes in the Journal from time to time. These will always be optional, of course, and used at the discretion of the judge in her campaign.

I will keep a regularly-updated FREE PDF on the AGP website that includes the basic details of each new Special Ability, and probably include the most prominent ones regularly in AGJ.

Second, as to an introduction to the races of the WoHA... well, that will be the Big Wilderlands Article in Journal #2. A paragraph dedicated to each of the Major Races... maybe just in the Northern Wilderlands Proper, with the Southern Races in #3. Depends on space. Each race gets its own major write-up in the Player's Guide where the race originates or is most prominent.

This won't satisfy everyone, but it is the simplest, quickest, and easiest way for people to be able to use the Wilderlands of High Adventure.

I need to make a sign and post it on my wall: "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" It can go next to the one that says "Success is the Best Revenge"...
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:25 pm
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Ulthal

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Fudge.


Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:11 am
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Ulthal
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sounds like a good plan, James. As someone (sorry I forget who) said above, you can always revisit the idea of a players guide further down the road.

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Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:46 pm
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Battle Stag
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*ding* At least we get a good idea on what is going on now. I guess that means boys and gals, it's time to go out and pick up a copy of the Wilderlands box set!

-O
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Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:59 pm
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Quote:
Omote wrote:
*ding* At least we get a good idea on what is going on now. I guess that means boys and gals, it's time to go out and pick up a copy of the Wilderlands box set!

-O



Or the less expensive Player's Guide to the Wilderlands the Necromancer Games released.
M
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Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:11 pm
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Ulthal

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Quote:
moriarty777 wrote:
Or the less expensive Player's Guide to the Wilderlands the Necromancer Games released.
M



Which has been out-of-print for ages and is nearly impossible to find. Someone recently commented about picking theirs up for $3? Mine cost me considerably more. And about what one would pay for the boxed set.


Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:50 pm
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Quote:
Harry Joy wrote:
Which has been out-of-print for ages and is nearly impossible to find. Someone recently commented about picking theirs up for $3? Mine cost me considerably more. And about what one would pay for the boxed set.



Really? The Wilderlands Box Set retails for $70 (though Amazon has it for a mere $50). I find *that* price a bit hard to swallow but I never knew how easy or hard it was to find the Player's Guide.

Two questions come to mind for anyone that can answer:

1) What kind of asking price do you see the guide when you do see it second hand on ebay or where ever?

2) What kind of print run did it have; how many copies were printed?

I guess I should be glad picked up my copy for $10 about a year ago in mint condition. However, if a print edition can't readily be found, there is always the PDF option through places like RPGNow that is happening to sell it for $12. Admittedly not the *best* solution available but one that might do in the meantime.

M
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Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:21 pm
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Ulthal

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I was only able to acquire it via trade on one of the major RPG related forums. After searching for some time, quite some time, I found a fellow willing to trade. But it cost me my DCC Gazetteer. The whole darned box.


Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:57 pm
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