Not sure how many of the C&C players out here have experience with 4e, but one thing I liked about the monsters in 4e is their ease in customizing and re-flavoring.
One mechanice they have is called Solo's and Elites, where a solo represents roughly 5 standard monsters and an elite represents 2.
Would it be a problem to use, at least, the elite philosophy to design some really tough, level appropriate, monsters?
Example, take a level 1 orc with 8 hit points. Could I not take that level 1 orc, and make him a "general" or warlord or something and give him 16 hit points and an extra attack? Because you are not increasing the level of the monster, his attack HD stays a 1. His defenses stay the same as well. He, in essence, is the equivilent of two level 1 monsters now.
Would that work in C&C or would that orc be "to tough"?
Is the best method to "up" a monster to just increase the HD and make it a level 2 monster?
Customizing Monsters
Re: Customizing Monsters
You need to up the HD. 4th "monsters" of this type are not compatible with any prior version as the game system is radically different than D&D. Doubling HP without adjusting HD would skew XP, Treasure, etc.
Given the mechanics of D&D, you could increase AC and thus, make 'em tougher to hit (in a way stretching HP's).
But, try it out. It might work for your game.
Given the mechanics of D&D, you could increase AC and thus, make 'em tougher to hit (in a way stretching HP's).
But, try it out. It might work for your game.
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Re: Customizing Monsters
I'm not familiar with D&D 4E, but couldn't you just put class levels on creatures to get them to be more powerful? In your orc example, how about giving the orc 5 levels of barbarian or fighter? That seems like a pretty "elite" enemy that would be hard to "solo."
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- Dead Horse
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Re: Customizing Monsters
If you want an orc with 16 hps and an extra attack ...do it.
Modify to your hearts content. If the players are happy ,no one else matters.
The main reason i can see for upping hps and not hd is saves and bonus to hit.
Also dont be afraid to allow monsters to have damage reduction like 3e had.
give a monster 5/dr (pick a weakness that bypasses the dr) and drive on... works great. 5dr means it shaves 5 off all damage it recieves.
Just dont do this with monsters to make them so tough the players have no chance. Alos increase the xps the of altered monsters appropiately.
Modify to your hearts content. If the players are happy ,no one else matters.
The main reason i can see for upping hps and not hd is saves and bonus to hit.
Also dont be afraid to allow monsters to have damage reduction like 3e had.
give a monster 5/dr (pick a weakness that bypasses the dr) and drive on... works great. 5dr means it shaves 5 off all damage it recieves.
Just dont do this with monsters to make them so tough the players have no chance. Alos increase the xps the of altered monsters appropiately.
Please don't beat me.
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- gideon_thorne
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Re: Customizing Monsters
Chap named DangerDwarf on these forums came up with an idea that's taken on a pretty universal C&C standard. Or at least lots of folks use it. "Level" the monsters. If you want to make a 4th level orc fighter as your general, for example, he just then becomes a 4HD creature. So he'd have 32 hps. Same thing can be applied with any class. Just multiply the HD with whatever level you want to make the monster, and add abilities accordingly. Makes for a pretty tough critter, and a nasty shock to the players.
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Re: Customizing Monsters
Yea, this is certainly easy enough, however, it also increases the attack modifier and the save throws. What I was suggesting leaves the attack and save values alone.gideon_thorne wrote:Chap named DangerDwarf on these forums came up with an idea that's taken on a pretty universal C&C standard. Or at least lots of folks use it. "Level" the monsters. If you want to make a 4th level orc fighter as your general, for example, he just then becomes a 4HD creature. So he'd have 32 hps. Same thing can be applied with any class. Just multiply the HD with whatever level you want to make the monster, and add abilities accordingly. Makes for a pretty tough critter, and a nasty shock to the players.
Thanks for the feedback all, good stuff.
- Andred of Albans
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Re: Customizing Monsters
Yes, yes and yes!!!!Dead Horse wrote:If you want an orc with 16 hps and an extra attack ...do it.
Modify to your hearts content. If the players are happy ,no one else matters.
Last campaign I ran was set in a homebrew based on FGU's long out of print Kingdom of Arden module (which several groups have expanded and fleshed out over nearly 25 years of on and off gaming) - one thing we always had was "exceptional monsters", individual monsters of greater than normal abilities.
Goraab the Great Goblin King (for example) was a mighty goblin warlord of the goblin hills who united several tribes and carved out a genuine kingdom for himself. He was a mighty warrior (equal to a 5th level fighter) and by his side was Bazagi, his queen, who was a master of arcane and unholy power (4th level M-U/4th Level Cleric) both had maximum hit points and maximum abilities. A bugbear bodyguard protected them at all times and a troop of lifeguards (an elite hobgoblin regiment) were always on duty to protect the court.
No tricks, no unfair or arbitrary GMing - just a logical application of the rules set we were using (AD&D 1e/2e).
I was looking at my Arden stuff the other day - I am thinking about running it again as a C&C game in the spring if I can find players.
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Re: Customizing Monsters
Take another look at the detailed descriptions in M&T for the orcs, goblins and kobolds. In those, you'll find the "by the book" ratings for the various subchiefs, shamans and clan chiefs for those monster races. Those might serve as a starting point for your modifications.
Another fun tweak lies in between DangerDwarf's full-on classing of monsters and the vanilla beasts, and that's to give a few of the creatures some class abilities, perhaps mixing and matching. Kobolds with backstab and wilderness sneaking ability can give the players a bit of a surprise.
Another fun tweak lies in between DangerDwarf's full-on classing of monsters and the vanilla beasts, and that's to give a few of the creatures some class abilities, perhaps mixing and matching. Kobolds with backstab and wilderness sneaking ability can give the players a bit of a surprise.
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Re: Customizing Monsters
Cool ideas ans suggestions all, thanks!