On the Anvil: TLG 8951 C&C Basic Game

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Akrasia
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Post by Akrasia »

Double post.
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Post by Akrasia »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Funny, I see a supposed vast majority that wants a move away from the emulator aspect. P.O.V. and spin are your friends in this case

I hang out at RPGnet a fair amount. C&C is definitely perceived (correctly, IMO) as an 'updated, streamlined version of AD&D' there. And its immediate compatibility with pre-3e D&D is a universal 'selling point' of the system.

I'm genuinely surprised that there are many C&C players out there with no familiarity with earlier versions of D&D, or who wish to distance C&C from its obvious roots.
Julian Grimm wrote:
Meh, going on an adventure without a halfling is like going to war without France. Both are like going deer hunting without an accordian; a damn good idea.

Well, I enjoy adventuring with French halfling bards who play the accordian, so tastes differ and all that.

Nonetheless, your personal preferences have nothing to do with what should be included in a product that is deliberately trying to evoke earlier Basic Sets.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Quote:
Nonetheless, your personal preferences have nothing to do with what should be included in a product that is deliberately trying to evoke earlier Basic Sets.

This coming from the...lemmee see...oh, one person looking for halflings.
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Post by Akrasia »

Julian Grimm wrote:
This coming from the...lemmee see...oh one person looking for halflings.

Well, in this thread rabindranth72 also expressed disappointment that there are no halflings in the Basic Set. In any case, given that there have only been about 5 people participating in this thread, making a generalisation based on such a small sample size would be quite foolish.

I'd be happy to wager 50 Euro that elsewhere the absence of halflings from a Basic Set clearly designed to evoke the old Moldvay/Mentzer versions will be seen as a gap.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

I really don't think people care. It's not like it's missing a good race anyway. Just a redundant one that even Gygax wasn't fond of in the beginning.
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Post by Akrasia »

I'm not sure why the halfling is 'redundant' (if you were talking about the gnome, I'd certainly agree), but there's obviously no point in thrashing this corpse of a horse any longer.

I think that not including the halfling obviously makes the game incomplete, especially given that it's trying to evoke the old Basic D&D sets. Other people disagree. C'est la vie.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
if you were talking about the gnome, I'd certainly agree)

NOOOO!!! Man, all this anti-gnome love. :(

Halflings are redundant. They are just short humans with hairy feet. Oh, and hunger pains.

Ogres are redundant. They are just large humans with small brains.

Dwarves are redundant. They are just humans who live underground and drink beer and like axes and hammers.

Elves are redundant. They're just humans with pointy ears, a hippie love of nature, and long lifespans.

Seriously... anything can be redundant. Its how they are presented that makes the difference.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Halflings and gnomes.. always getting shorted.
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Post by Troll Lord »

I hate to do this, but I need to get this out in the open, before the basic set hits and people get very disappointed, as I suspect (read in that: know) they will.

The basic set is not being designed as a revision of C&C or a reincarnation of the Moldvay version of D&D. I honestly, honestly, really honestly, have never read nor played the Moldvay version of D&D. To my knowledge, I never played Basic, Expert or .... isn't there another one....D&D. I went from little brown books to AD&D to C&C. Played 3.0 exactly twice, a great game but not to my tastes.

The basic set of C&C isn't being designed with any version of anything in mind but C&C. I have NO DOUBT it will have similarities, probably to the D&D basic set as I do know that that version of D&D has race-class combos. But please note, the Codex of Erde has race-class combos. That's the first place we did that. Mac Golden's High Elf is a class, that was published in the Codex in 2000 and stems directly from our Swords and Sorcery...that elf is the template from which i'm working on all the race classes.

The basic set's target audience is not 'old school' gamers, but young gamers. We are putting together a game that is even simpler than C&C, we want it to be faster play, faster to learn to play and less thought going into character creation. I've had long talks with Gary about games and the people who play them and we both agree that new, younger audiences have to be tapped. I'm not saying we will succeed were others have failed, but we are damned well going to try. CC Basic is that vehicle for us...right now.

The race-class concept is going into the basic set for its simplicity and that is the reason the Halflings are being cut from the initial games release. Simplicity. Having too many classes and races is having too many.

Thanks,

Steve
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Post by Akrasia »

Okay, thanks for the clarification Steve.

(Of course, given all the (then) young people who started playing D&D with the Moldvay and Mentzer Basic Sets, that's not a bad model to use to get new players IMO.)
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Post by Troll Lord »

Akrasia wrote:
Okay, thanks for the clarification Steve.

(Of course, given all the (then) young people who started playing D&D with the Moldvay and Mentzer Basic Sets, that's not a bad model to use to get new players IMO.)

Agreed. And that's the tone of most of my conversations with Gary (trust me when I tell you (by 'you' I don't mean akrasia, but everyone) that when I talk to Gary I listen to him. He is the only one I know who took a company making very little and forged it into an empire, and I listen to him when he talks). TSR made active, some successful and some not so, attempts to get new audiences to the game. You can read in the old dragon mags his approach: never new additions, just an improvement of the older ones.

Now, of course are markers are different, but so are our resources.

Thanks,

Steve
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Post by Omote »

BAM! Steve comes through with all the goods we need to know. This answers a lot of questions I think.

And as Coleston (I think) mentioned on page 2, maybe halflings and gnomes will appear as NPC / monsters. In any case, sweet.

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Post by Troll Lord »

To be sure, halflings and gnomes are not CUT from the game, in the box set they are not player options.

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Post by Omote »

Good times. In my own little mind I am considering Basic C&C as an advanced version of C&C Collector's Box... although, even with Steve's description it seems like a different game then Collector's Box.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Akrasia wrote:
Okay, thanks for the clarification Steve.

(Of course, given all the (then) young people who started playing D&D with the Moldvay and Mentzer Basic Sets, that's not a bad model to use to get new players IMO.)

*looks around for a rain of frogs* Wow, Akrasia and I agree on something... the worlds gonna end!
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Post by moriarty777 »

gideon_thorne wrote:
*looks around for a rain of frogs* Wow, Akrasia and I agree on something... the worlds gonna end!

Wait a minute... didn't Steve say Serl was right a couple of times just a few days ago?

Another sign?
Thanks for clarifying the details about the set... it sounds quite promising!

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Post by serleran »

Quote:
I honestly, honestly, really honestly, have never read nor played the Moldvay version of D&D.

Want one? I have one that no one seems to want...

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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

Troll Lord wrote:
The basic set's target audience is not 'old school' gamers, but young gamers. We are putting together a game that is even simpler than C&C, we want it to be faster play, faster to learn to play and less thought going into character creation. I've had long talks with Gary about games and the people who play them and we both agree that new, younger audiences have to be tapped. I'm not saying we will succeed were others have failed, but we are damned well going to try. CC Basic is that vehicle for us...right now. Steve

Well, for me (and my three young boys), this is what we are looking for.

I never seem to have a good enough grasp of the rules to make very critical comments on these boards (even though C&C is not that difficult). That's why I try to be funny here and there. However, I know I could do a lot to bring in new, young players. I'm sure there are others who would be good at this too. I am really looking forward to using Basic C&C for this very purpose.
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Post by Omote »

serleran wrote:
Want one? I have one that no one seems to want...

Heh, this statement will probably make me more unpopular, but when it comes to Modvay/Holmes version of D&D, I don't think you missed much. Personally the Mentzer version of Basic was epitome of classic D&D in my mind.

Anyways, who cares about that... C&C Basic IS on the way!!!

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Post by Rhuvein »

My nephew wants to try his hand at CK'ing and asked if he could run the D&D basic game from 2004 that we all started with before finding C&C. I'd love for him to try it, but I'll see if we can hold off maybe for a bit until this game comes out.

Otherwise, it's an easy Christmas or Birthday present after it's released.

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Post by Omote »

Rhuvein wrote:
My nephew wants to try his hand at CK'ing and asked if he could run the D&D basic game from 2004 that we all started with before finding C&C. I'd love for him to try it, but I'll see if we can hold off maybe for a bit until this game comes out.

Otherwise, it's an easy Christmas or Birthday present after it's released.

You should so wait! Honestly, the v3.X basic game stinks IMO. I'm not even sure if it's good to learn THAT game by. Give him a game he'll remember, the gift of true adventure... not mechanical adventure. Give him C&C Basic.
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Post by Rhuvein »

Omote wrote:
You should so wait! Honestly, the v3.X basic game stinks IMO. I'm not even sure if it's good to learn THAT game by. Give him a game he'll remember, the gift of true adventure... mot mechanical adventure. Give him C&C Basic.
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Yep, you're right. It's not 3.X. That's the kicker. It's actually a fun and interesting intro game for baginners without the crap of 3.X. Easy instructions and dungeon tiles and simple to run.

Then when you look at the 3.5 PH, you go into shell shock and say WTHeck???

But yeah, depending on release time, I'd rather give him this Basic C&C box.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Omote wrote:
Personally the Mentzer version of Basic was epitome of classic D&D in my mind.

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Post by Omote »

You know it. JG, speak it loud! Speak it proud!

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Post by Akrasia »

Omote wrote:
Heh, this statement will probably make me more unpopular, but when it comes to Modvay/Holmes version of D&D, I don't think you missed much. Personally the Mentzer version of Basic was epitome of classic D&D in my mind.

The Holmes and Moldvay versions of BD&D were separate editions. While I started with the Holmes Basic Set, it wasn't that great IMO (aside from some rather cool Trampier illustrations, and a fun 'Skull Mountain' dungeon included in the end).

The Moldvay Basic Set, on the other hand, is the Platonic Form of an introductory D&D ruleset. It is simply beautiful (evocative Erol Otus cover, excellent internal art) and efficient (all the rules you need, clearly explained, in 64 pages). The Mentzer Basic Set, while fine, suffers from less flavourful art (IMO), a more 'patronizing' writing style, weaker organisation (at least as a reference while gaming), and breaking the rules into two separate books. I think that it's fine, but it's just not in the same league, in terms of style and efficiency, as the Moldvay Basic Set. But obviously this is a matter of taste.
Omote wrote:
Anyways, who cares about that... C&C Basic IS on the way!!!

If it manages to be 20% as cool as the Moldvay Basic Set, I'll be happy.
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Post by rabindranath72 »

I would have thought that after all the hype of the LotR films, hobbits (halflings) would be an easily recognizable fantasy character worth including in an entry level fantasy game. I simply do not see why elves and dwarves should be better known than halflings, and therefore more "useful" as prototypes of fantasy races.

Anyway, I hope the C&C set lives to the expectations!

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Post by gideon_thorne »

I think that the boxed set is going for the '6 class' pattern. So Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Elf and Dwarf.

6 classes, 6 primes. Does that make more sense?
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Post by serleran »

The rule of 6 will be used? Sweet. Now, if we can get us some chits...

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Post by Troll Lord »

rabindranath72 wrote:
I would have thought that after all the hype of the LotR films, hobbits (halflings) would be an easily recognizable fantasy character worth including in an entry level fantasy game. I simply do not see why elves and dwarves should be better known than halflings, and therefore more "useful" as prototypes of fantasy races.

Anyway, I hope the C&C set lives to the expectations!

Actually that was the only reason we considered putting the 1/2ling in, but we had two things to consider:

1) simplicity

2) what do kids play. most kids want to be the great big hero, not the clever, thoughtful, food gobbling little people.

so when combining number 1 with number 2. we decided to drop the halflings for the basic set.

Does that make sense?

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Post by Omote »

Makes sense. However, after seeing what the race-as-class will look like in BC&C, that make many of us wonder more what ythe halfling will be like. Will it be a fighter/rogue combo? A ranger/rogue combo? Or something completely different?

We shall soon see.

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