bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
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bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Against chain, plate, and scale, it's +2.
+2 to attack, damage, or both?
+2 to attack, damage, or both?
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I think I would use the description from Unearthed Arcana where Gary mentions "its heavy crow's-beak blade was designed to puncture the heavy plate armor common to the upper class warriors."
So for me +2 to damage. No special bonus when trying to hit.
So for me +2 to damage. No special bonus when trying to hit.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I'd read that reverse. Since AC is the thing to beat in order to hit, and given the quote that Rhu gave...I'd say it's a +2 to hit, not to damage since it is designed to punch through armor.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Agree completely with Google on this. Now if armor provided damage reduction instead of making it harder to hit...Go0gleplex wrote:I'd read that reverse. Since AC is the thing to beat in order to hit, and given the quote that Rhu gave...I'd say it's a +2 to hit, not to damage since it is designed to punch through armor.
Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Yes, but if it worked that way, the bec-de-corbin would inflict out-of-proportion damage on unarmoured targets.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I'm still kicking this one around in my mind.
Reminds me somewhat of the discussion several years ago about the man-catcher and how the damage occurs or is applied.
I guess the answer could depend on what the attacker is trying to do.
Is he trying to hit the opponent or catch and hook a piece of the armor and peel it off.
I suppose you could say the crow beak could add a bonus to create an opening in the armor, but too me, the weapon is very long and unwieldy and so why a bonus to hit??
You could probably use some sort of called-shot rule or perhaps let the dice determine what occurs when the attack happens.
Reminds me somewhat of the discussion several years ago about the man-catcher and how the damage occurs or is applied.
I guess the answer could depend on what the attacker is trying to do.
Is he trying to hit the opponent or catch and hook a piece of the armor and peel it off.
I suppose you could say the crow beak could add a bonus to create an opening in the armor, but too me, the weapon is very long and unwieldy and so why a bonus to hit??
You could probably use some sort of called-shot rule or perhaps let the dice determine what occurs when the attack happens.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Rhuvein, your falling into the blunder of the naming convention.
'To hit' is not if you hit or not, its if you can get a damaging hit over the course of the combat round.
Armor making it harder to "be hit with a telling blow". The Bec-de-cor-bon was designed to pierce through armor... aka making a 'hit' so to speak.
Make sense?
'To hit' is not if you hit or not, its if you can get a damaging hit over the course of the combat round.
Armor making it harder to "be hit with a telling blow". The Bec-de-cor-bon was designed to pierce through armor... aka making a 'hit' so to speak.
Make sense?
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I don't know why it would be confusing. The weapon was specifically designed to punch through plate armor. By creating a crow's beak, it focuses the energy of the blow into a small area leaving less armor area to resist the blow...ie, the energy is not spread of the surface of the armor. You could make the same arguement about spears being unwieldy, so why are they used in combat without penalty? Or halberds? Or two-handed swords? ad nauseum. Specifically, you'd use this weapon in an open field engagement, much like a pike or such where you have the room to wield it properly. In a dungeon environment it is pretty much the pain in the ass to use that you suppose.
This isn't like the man-catcher arguement since the weapon description given is specific in its effect. Puncture armor. Which is the same as saying negating armor, ergo, bonus to hit due to reducing the effectiveness of said armor. No confusion. Now if it had said something to the effect of "cause grievous wounds", then I could see a damage bonus...but the description makes no such or even similar statements. However...the default rule is in effect. CK's call.
A bit more, the haft of the weapon varied between 5ft to 8ft and it was used by dismounted knights, being the only polearm considered a weapon of the nobility.
This isn't like the man-catcher arguement since the weapon description given is specific in its effect. Puncture armor. Which is the same as saying negating armor, ergo, bonus to hit due to reducing the effectiveness of said armor. No confusion. Now if it had said something to the effect of "cause grievous wounds", then I could see a damage bonus...but the description makes no such or even similar statements. However...the default rule is in effect. CK's call.
A bit more, the haft of the weapon varied between 5ft to 8ft and it was used by dismounted knights, being the only polearm considered a weapon of the nobility.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
No.Dead Horse wrote:Rhuvein, your falling into the blunder of the naming convention.
'To hit' is not if you hit or not, its if you can get a damaging hit over the course of the combat round.
Armor making it harder to "be hit with a telling blow". The Bec-de-cor-bon was designed to pierce through armor... aka making a 'hit' so to speak.
Make sense?
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Google, I didn't say penalty - just I wouldn't allow the BtH.
And if I were to allow a BtH on that weapon when it hits, since the crow blade is small, then I wouldn't allow a +2 to damage. And I wonder about the D10 damage from such a small blade.
Good discussion and thanks to all for the input.
Like to hear from Steve as well!
And if I were to allow a BtH on that weapon when it hits, since the crow blade is small, then I wouldn't allow a +2 to damage. And I wonder about the D10 damage from such a small blade.
Good discussion and thanks to all for the input.
Like to hear from Steve as well!
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
By "without penalty" I was referring to restrictions upon their use.
It's not a blade really. It's a spike or wedge. There was a TV series, "Conquest" that dealt with the various medieaval weapons and armors on several years back. Very good series and well worth watching if one wanted to really get into the pro's and con's of the various weapons used.
It's not a blade really. It's a spike or wedge. There was a TV series, "Conquest" that dealt with the various medieaval weapons and armors on several years back. Very good series and well worth watching if one wanted to really get into the pro's and con's of the various weapons used.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I'd definitely like to see that show.Go0gleplex wrote:By "without penalty" I was referring to restrictions upon their use.
It's not a blade really. It's a spike or wedge. There was a TV series, "Conquest" that dealt with the various medieaval weapons and armors on several years back. Very good series and well worth watching if one wanted to really get into the pro's and con's of the various weapons used.
Interesting . . blade vs. spike or wedge. I did note on my brief internet search yesterday that there were many slightly different types of bec de corbins.
I would most certainly lower the damage rating if the weapon had a spike or wedge rather than a blade.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Dude....don't make me break out the physics. lol
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I take this to be a +2 to attack only. It doesn't make sense that it should inflict more damage against an armored opponent than it would against someone with no armor. However, it does make sense that it reduces the effectiveness of tougher armors against this weapon. Another way to look at it is to say that the weapon confers a -2 to the victim's armor bonus from heavy armor, because the otherwise tough armor is less effective against it.Aergraith wrote:Against chain, plate, and scale, it's +2.
+2 to attack, damage, or both?
My 2 cents.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I’ve decided no BtH or BtD.
It’s a d10 weapon and that’s plenty of dmg – adding +2 because there is a small crow blade doesn’t make sense. So I’ll retract my opinion there.
Now why add a plus to hit? It’s a long pole that needs to find it’s mark like any other weapon and the fact that there is a blade beak on it, doesn’t suggest to me that the little blade adds any advantage to get through the recipient's defense.
I can see that if the attack is successful, and the weapon pierces the armor, perhaps the attacker can get a strength check to see if he can rip the armor open or possibly rip a piece off. And mebbe, the defender would get a DEX or STR check to resist the attacker’s effort.
It’s a d10 weapon and that’s plenty of dmg – adding +2 because there is a small crow blade doesn’t make sense. So I’ll retract my opinion there.
Now why add a plus to hit? It’s a long pole that needs to find it’s mark like any other weapon and the fact that there is a blade beak on it, doesn’t suggest to me that the little blade adds any advantage to get through the recipient's defense.
I can see that if the attack is successful, and the weapon pierces the armor, perhaps the attacker can get a strength check to see if he can rip the armor open or possibly rip a piece off. And mebbe, the defender would get a DEX or STR check to resist the attacker’s effort.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Rhuvein your physics guessing make my head hurt.
Bec-de-corbins could punch through the toughest of armors with ease.
Want to test this? take a sword and try a swing at your car, then use a pick-axe (small pointed beak like) and try to hit your car with it.
Guess what? the small focused point will punch trough steel with ease. The swords wide thin edge will dent but not pierce.
In game terms a small hard hitting focused pierceing attack gets a bonus against the heavy armor types.
Here is a video showing the difference a small focused point has... watch till he tries the pick side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-iZ5S7L4HM
Now imagine that pike swung with the force of a 10 foot pole...
Bec-de-corbins could punch through the toughest of armors with ease.
Want to test this? take a sword and try a swing at your car, then use a pick-axe (small pointed beak like) and try to hit your car with it.
Guess what? the small focused point will punch trough steel with ease. The swords wide thin edge will dent but not pierce.
In game terms a small hard hitting focused pierceing attack gets a bonus against the heavy armor types.
Here is a video showing the difference a small focused point has... watch till he tries the pick side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-iZ5S7L4HM
Now imagine that pike swung with the force of a 10 foot pole...
Please don't beat me.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Well thanks. I don't think your post or the vid prove anything that contradicts what I said.Dead Horse wrote:Rhuvein your physics guessing make my head hurt.
Bec-de-corbins could punch through the toughest of armors with ease.
Want to test this? take a sword and try a swing at your car, then use a pick-axe (small pointed beak like) and try to hit your car with it.
Guess what? the small focused point will punch trough steel with ease. The swords wide thin edge will dent but not pierce.
In game terms a small hard hitting focused pierceing attack gets a bonus against the heavy armor types.
Here is a video showing the difference a small focused point has... watch till he tries the pick side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-iZ5S7L4HM
Now imagine that pike swung with the force of a 10 foot pole...
His hammer end against an undefended "opponent" strikes and does damage - denting the armor can be considered subdual or actual rib busting damage. Roll a d10.
His spiked end against same strikes and does damage (pokes a hole) . . roll a d10. No bonus.
The body can take piercing wounds in some areas better than it can take blunt force strikes and vice versa . . so no bonus.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
OOo! Ooo! someone said physics!
swing a sword or even a pick having a 3ft long blade/haft with 100 lbs of force. Given arm reach, say 4.5 as a conservative point of impact. The blow imparts 450 lbs of force. (that's gonna hurt)
Now, swing a blade or spike with an 8ft haft with the same 100 lbs of force, the blow imparts 800 lbs of force at point of impact. So a pole arm imparts almost double the impact force of a standard melee weapon, not taking into account weight of blade or impact head...or focal point. When you take into account armor spreading the force of a blade over its surface, some of that energy is lost...and if the armor is fluted, it likely won't dent it too awfully bad unless you're talking a heavy mace-like head. Utilizing a point, all of that force punches straight through armor losing little of its force, and fluting is absolutely no help against it. Chainmail gives even less protection.
and that's a general primer of weapons physics.
swing a sword or even a pick having a 3ft long blade/haft with 100 lbs of force. Given arm reach, say 4.5 as a conservative point of impact. The blow imparts 450 lbs of force. (that's gonna hurt)
Now, swing a blade or spike with an 8ft haft with the same 100 lbs of force, the blow imparts 800 lbs of force at point of impact. So a pole arm imparts almost double the impact force of a standard melee weapon, not taking into account weight of blade or impact head...or focal point. When you take into account armor spreading the force of a blade over its surface, some of that energy is lost...and if the armor is fluted, it likely won't dent it too awfully bad unless you're talking a heavy mace-like head. Utilizing a point, all of that force punches straight through armor losing little of its force, and fluting is absolutely no help against it. Chainmail gives even less protection.
and that's a general primer of weapons physics.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Excellent!!Go0gleplex wrote:OOo! Ooo! someone said physics!
swing a sword or even a pick having a 3ft long blade/haft with 100 lbs of force. Given arm reach, say 4.5 as a conservative point of impact. The blow imparts 450 lbs of force. (that's gonna hurt)
Now, swing a blade or spike with an 8ft haft with the same 100 lbs of force, the blow imparts 800 lbs of force at point of impact. So a pole arm imparts almost double the impact force of a standard melee weapon, not taking into account weight of blade or impact head...or focal point. When you take into account armor spreading the force of a blade over its surface, some of that energy is lost...and if the armor is fluted, it likely won't dent it too awfully bad unless you're talking a heavy mace-like head. Utilizing a point, all of that force punches straight through armor losing little of its force, and fluting is absolutely no help against it. Chainmail gives even less protection.
and that's a general primer of weapons physics.
Now if you could give me speed factors . . does the longer weapon slow down the delivery time from beginning to end??
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Btw, I see that the weight of the bec is 4 lbs. Heh, if that is accepted by you google you may need to redo your figures!!
4 lbs!! No way!! Heck, I could swing that thing with one hand while the other holds my walrus!!
4 lbs!! No way!! Heck, I could swing that thing with one hand while the other holds my walrus!!
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
He was talking force of the swing not the weight of the weapon.
4 pounds sounds light untill you have to swing it for 20 - 30 mins.
4 pounds sounds light untill you have to swing it for 20 - 30 mins.
Please don't beat me.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Yeah. The 4 lbs seems a bit light. An 8ft haft would weigh 4-8 lbs by itself depending on the density of the wood it was made from and how much iron was used to reinforce it. The head is likely to be 3-5 lbs guess-timating. All the weight would do is increase the impact force though you'd have to figure the haft as a distributed weight which for simplicity is a pain in the tuckus.
And depending how skilled the wielder is, they could actually swing the polearm faster than the guy with the sword could swing...and I know this from practical application when I was messing around with some martial arts stuff. It involves pivot points and snaps...and doesn't reduce the applicable force appreciably. It becomes a torque force instead of a moment when it becomes a pivot action.
And depending how skilled the wielder is, they could actually swing the polearm faster than the guy with the sword could swing...and I know this from practical application when I was messing around with some martial arts stuff. It involves pivot points and snaps...and doesn't reduce the applicable force appreciably. It becomes a torque force instead of a moment when it becomes a pivot action.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
OK, I guess I can see this . . if the PC keeps rolling bad!!Dead Horse wrote:He was talking force of the swing not the weight of the weapon.
4 pounds sounds light untill you have to swing it for 20 - 30 mins.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
I completely disagree with this. I too have dabbled.Go0gleplex wrote:And depending how skilled the wielder is, they could actually swing the polearm faster than the guy with the sword could swing...and I know this from practical application when I was messing around with some martial arts stuff. It involves pivot points and snaps...and doesn't reduce the applicable force appreciably. It becomes a torque force instead of a moment when it becomes a pivot action.
Even if you pick a pivot point closer to the middle, the back end awkwardness seems to interfere with a full fast swing and thus does not allow the same fast movement of a sword, IMO. Something about that back end acting as a counter weight.
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Re: bec-de-corbin vs. armor bonus.
Rhuvein wrote:I completely disagree with this. I too have dabbled.Go0gleplex wrote:And depending how skilled the wielder is, they could actually swing the polearm faster than the guy with the sword could swing...and I know this from practical application when I was messing around with some martial arts stuff. It involves pivot points and snaps...and doesn't reduce the applicable force appreciably. It becomes a torque force instead of a moment when it becomes a pivot action.
Even if you pick a pivot point closer to the middle, the back end awkwardness seems to interfere with a full fast swing and thus does not allow the same fast movement of a sword, IMO. Something about that back end acting as a counter weight.
Nope. The backend doesn't come into it because you're using the back end to generate the motion of the forward end around the pivot point. Again, you're operating on the principles of torque and moment. The issue that may rob some of the force is the shortening of the moment arm due to placement of the pivot point. This can be easily overcome by application of greater force on the opposing moment arm. It gets a hell of a lot more complicated beyond that point since you have to take into account potential energy and bending stresses etc. If I can find something on line that shows the entire concept, I'll post a link.
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