Castles and Crusades new edition?

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tylermo
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Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by tylermo »

I'm not sure when it will happen, but I'm sure there'll eventually be a 5th printing of Castles and Crusades. Should the next print run consist of errata fixes and clarifications(spell resistance, etc.), or should there be sweeping changes? I'm one of the fanboys who's largely pleased with the overall product. EV has been an issue for some, I've heard it said some spells could be beefed up, and even had one person who disliked the siege engine. I'm not suggesting a new edition for C&C. It serves me well. 4th printing featured more changes than ever before. Should there be more? None? A complete overhaul? Let's hear from the gurus and the newbies alike. Probably just getting concerned for the ogl games if D&D were to dominate the market again with a retro-ish 5e.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Arduin »

Errata fixes. Don't see a need for a major rework. Not worried about WotC 5ed dominating. They have as much chance of that as I do of being made the Queen of England.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Omote »

5th printing with corrections, a new cover, and some new/reissued interior artwork (please Peter Bradley, get rid of that line drawing near the monk page... it doesn't fit with the rest of the spectacular pieces that have depth and shading!). That's all I'll ever need.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Arduin »

What would be cool is a Heroes & Villains of Lore. A treatment of Hercules, Jason, Nights of the Round Table. All the larger than life mortal figures of myth & legend.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by kreider204 »

Errata, clarifications, minor tweaks. Anything more substantive, and I'd probably just stick with the current printing.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by tylermo »

I'm curious. What minor tweaks or clarifications?

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Just a fifth printing for me. C&C is at the point where many of the past issues are being fixed, addressed or edited better. Why in the world they would want to change to a whole new system when what they have works so well. I'm sure other books will get the same treatment (Such as the CKG) and being that far ahead in the quality in the game, why start over and have to do that all over again?

I like what it is and wouldn't be really pissed if they started from scratch, but I'd stick with the Seige Engine books and just not buy the new edition. (Sound familiar?)
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by concobar »

Arduin wrote:Errata fixes. Don't see a need for a major rework. Not worried about WotC 5ed dominating. They have as much chance of that as I do of being made the Queen of England.
You do understand that WotC dominates currently and will probably capture a majority of the market again with 5ed right?

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by tylermo »

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but was wondering of there were any little things that required looking into. My friend was the only person I knew that had any quibbles with the siege engine. I said overhaul in case somebody really thought the game needed it. I think errata and clarifications would be the main thing. If at all.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by serleran »

I would like to see non-standard races allowed, like kobold, goblin, and orc.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by kreider204 »

tylermo wrote:I'm curious. What minor tweaks or clarifications?
I didn't have anything specific in mind - I just meant that I would buy another printing as long as there wasn't anything more than that. If they make a new edition, in the sense of a major change of the rule set, then I'm out.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Arduin »

serleran wrote:I would like to see non-standard races allowed, like kobold, goblin, and orc.
They are allowed. Plus see page 32 CKG
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by serleran »

Of course they are "allowed." That is not the point.

And, the CKG section on adding races is... slim.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Relaxo »

Arduin wrote:What would be cool is a Heroes & Villains of Lore. A treatment of Hercules, Jason, Nights of the Round Table. All the larger than life mortal figures of myth & legend.
+1
very cool idea
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Ancalagon »

I'm pleased with the 4th printing.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Arduin »

concobar wrote:You do understand that WotC dominates currently and will probably capture a majority of the market again with 5ed right?
As far as "D&D" (Pathfinder, C&C, et al) you are incorrect.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

serleran wrote:I would like to see non-standard races allowed, like kobold, goblin, and orc.
No balrog or young dragon PCs?
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by serleran »

Nope, maybe lizardman, hobgoblin, and gnoll though.

It's probably just me on a recent faery binge, reading 6 different books on the subject from different nations, just to reintegrate some of those notions in my own personal gaming.

Definitely not needed as a "core" rule, but I think some more generic guidelines might be neat. Something like "the attribute modifiers cannot exceed +/-3 with none exceeding 2 points difference" or whatever.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

Now see - it's wild stuff like this (creating a PC from any species) that I took from the Little Brown Books all them years ago - and why I've never been completely satisfied with any character-generating software. Darn that AD&D game for initiating the idea of limitations!
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by redwullf »

concobar wrote:You do understand that WotC dominates currently and will probably capture a majority of the market again with 5ed right?
Pathfinder outsells D&D on Amazon:

#2 Pathfinder Core Rulebook
#3 Pathfinder Beginner Box
...
#8 D&D Red box (new)
#42 D&D Dungeon Master's Guide

I realize that's only a single measure of "dominance" but PFRPG has been outselling D&D on Amazon for quite some time now. Add the various non-D&D RPGs and WotC FAR from dominates. They have a decent market share, no doubt, but their competition, especially from the boys at Paizo, is stiff.

Update: If you just go to "Gaming" in the hardcover Science Fiction & Fantasy subcategory of books, the listings break down different, but PFRPG is still on top.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by zarathustra »

No doubt WOTC could dominate again & are in the best position to achieve that (still rather be them than Paizo in terms of name recognition & backing).

BUT this is the toughest period D&D owners have faced since White Wolf I think.

Anyway C&C should stick to their guns & tinker only with editing/Illusionist in future prints IMO. I would be happy to share my Illusionist "fixes" for a small fee :)

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by tylermo »

Please share. A friend of mine was a little less than impressed with some of the dragon spells.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by TheMetal1 »

C&C 2e? No.

5th Printing? Yes

Personally, I'd like to see the Trolls have a completely settled product for the PHB, M&T and CKG until there is no more errata or tweaks. Then simply make changes to the Art or layout each subsequent printing.

What needs to be Tweaked? Off the top of my head...

Magic Item Creation, confusing and frustrating, and I was rather disappointed that it wasn't even addressed in the CKG.

Maybe the Read Magic, Divine Magic, Arcane Magic, Dechiper Script that was brought up

I like the SEIGE engine as described, but adding in say a paragraph of the alternate method of +6 might help.

As far as EV, I think it is fine as written.

Maybe add in some more examples, add in a named "Iconic" for each class and race. Use them throughout the PHB as examples for each step of Character Creation and rules use. Ultimately adding them as Quick Start Charcters.

I just like the idea that for the most part I can mix and match all my printings at the table, a C&C 2e would make that a rather less attractive option.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Arduin »

TheMetal1 wrote: Magic Item Creation, confusing and frustrating, and I was rather disappointed that it wasn't even addressed in the CKG.
Maybe some of us can help you. What did you encounter that was problematic for your game?
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by redwullf »

Arduin wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote: Magic Item Creation, confusing and frustrating, and I was rather disappointed that it wasn't even addressed in the CKG.
Maybe some of us can help you. What did you encounter that was problematic for your game?
Indeed. Magic item creation is addressed on pg. 87 of Monsters & Treasure.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by AGNKim »

Three words for 5th printing:

Pop Up Book

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by mgtremaine »

redwullf wrote:
Arduin wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote: Magic Item Creation, confusing and frustrating, and I was rather disappointed that it wasn't even addressed in the CKG.
Maybe some of us can help you. What did you encounter that was problematic for your game?
Indeed. Magic item creation is addressed on pg. 87 of Monsters & Treasure.
TheMetal1 is pretty aware of the current system he just wants more details. I refer you back to this thread from 2010...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9645

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by alcyone »

Trying to use 'printing' and 'edition' in the way most commonly used on the forum.

For a new printing all I care about is that known errata are incorporated. I am not clear on what errata are known, though; I see a lot of stuff posted here and I know there are some dedicated forum members who collect these, but I don't know what the Trolls' official channel is for reporting them; they don't seem to be sought; there is no address that I know of for reporting them, and it seems like folly to expect the Trolls to search this and other forums looking for them. So I wonder how annoyed I should be that this or that isn't "fixed".

Beyond errors, clarifications are fine, if that is what they are doing; not changing a rule because some vocal forum users like it better, but just shedding some light about how it was intended to work (but by whom, Davis? Stephen? Mac? Someone else who wrote that rule?) or how it works at the tables of the authors. Lots of questions on the forums are just about whether or not a group is playing correctly or as intended, and are met with the initially frustrating response that if it works for you, you are doing it correctly. I think that response, though, is the most fitting for this game, one that not only is meant to be houseruled, but in fact, must be houseruled, if only at the level of making an assumption or interpretation about something that is intentionally vague. I'd be pretty conservative about adding these clarifications in the books though. It seems like The Crusader is a better (print) vehicle for discussing different ways a common rule is used at the Troll's (or anyone else's) table.

Not that it's bad to incorporate new rules or change old rules that everyone likes better, but that truly would call for a new edition of the game. I'd prefer this sort of thing get collected in the Crusader and culled periodically into supplements if it can stave off a new edition.
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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by Omote »

It seems that over the years, and at various conventions, in talking with the authors and other people who seem to be in the know, the Trolls just don't want to change cetrain things that some consider errata. It's pretty clear that TLG doesn't want to add clarification to certain, rather vague rules. I was just reading somewhere that Steve, Davis and sombody else Mac?) play/run the game in 3 different ways. They interpret the rules differently so that what works for them can be done by all of us. This is the point of the whole C&C game. TLG has presented a nice, concise set of simple rules that can be added on to or changed without modifying the whole structure of the game. I'm pretty sure this is the exact reason there are never going to be a set of codified, strict, and exacting rules on the creation of magic items. The Trolls have had 3+ printings to change these rules, and they have not. I'm sure there are other rules to that many would think need to be clarified to the point of a set of rules that spell out things, one, two, three. Let's face it, that doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen.

I'm sure some of the remaining typographical errors will be fixed (are there even any left?), plus maybe getting rid of a sentace or two. Maybe they'll add a few to clarify base, core rules. Whatever changes will be made to the next printing, I do not think it will be very drastic. Other than maybe the cover. That will be pretty drastic.

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Re: Castles and Crusades new edition?

Post by redwullf »

mgtremaine wrote:TheMetal1 is pretty aware of the current system he just wants more details. I refer you back to this thread from 2010...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9645

-Mike
Ah, I wasn't 'round back in those days. I misunderstood the post in this thread to mean that he was looking for information on magic item creation in the CKG, to which I thoughtfully responded that it would be found in M&T instead.

I guess all I can add, then, is to say that I didn't find the M&T magic item creation information to be particularly confusing. Gaps or lacking in detail? Sure, but those can easily be filled in by the inventive CK. The last thing I'd want to use is some all-encompassing system like 3.5/Pathfinder. Bro needs some latitude. :)
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