temple of elemental evil

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mordrene
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temple of elemental evil

Post by mordrene »

Hi Kids,

My gaming group is made up of three newer players, one veteran from the first edition days and myself who has played for 30 some years. The newbies were talking at our last session that they never got to play the classic mods of first edition. I automatically thought of TOEE and do a straight convert to CNC. Does anyone see any issues with this?

serleran
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by serleran »

No.

The dragon at the moathouse might be an extreme challenge, if the party decides to be stupid and battle it.

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mgtremaine
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by mgtremaine »

serleran wrote:No.

The dragon at the moathouse might be an extreme challenge, if the party decides to be stupid and battle it.
?? I'm not remembering a Dragon?

-Mike

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mgtremaine
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by mgtremaine »

ToEE is interesting I've been going through it recently also trying to decide if I should run it soon or not. It's one of the dungeons that can be TPK, meat grinder if the party does the wrong thing. (Somehow forcing their way into the ruined tower and down into 3rd level on their first tip for example is usually a blood bath. Laerth is pretty darn tough for a group of 1st-2nd leveled PC's. There are tons more of examples I can think of.)

But for cautious and well thought play it seems doable. The conversion will need some attention to the spellcaster spelllists, since C&C is not totally AD&D. Burne and Falrinth for example and important to have fully stated. Also deciding how to handle multiclass is a must because there are tons of them. (I like class-in-half with Fighter/Assassin being the common theme here. Smigmal for example as F 7/ A 3 still backs a punch at +12 to hit -- +7 BtH, +2 ST, +2 Weapon Specialization, +1 Shortsword. She comes out invisible and watches and setups the Death Attack.... It's pretty brutal.)

It's definitely the kind of dungeon you need to have well ingrained in your working memory to run so good luck and I hope it's a blast!

-Mike

serleran
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by serleran »

I may have misremembered it from the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

I'll have to dig out a copy of the original.

ChaosImp
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by ChaosImp »

Best module ever!

We had a lot of fun with this especially the elemental nodes; I took a month or so and wrote all four up thoroughly. One of my favourites areas is on level one with the harpy and ghouls (lethal). I also have fond memories when a party member starting putting holy water in the vats in the fire temple (16 salamanders appeared!). Anyways have fun.

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Aramis
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by Aramis »

mordrene wrote:Hi Kids,

My gaming group is made up of three newer players, one veteran from the first edition days and myself who has played for 30 some years. The newbies were talking at our last session that they never got to play the classic mods of first edition. I automatically thought of TOEE and do a straight convert to CNC. Does anyone see any issues with this?
Our online group is also interested in the old classics, and we are presently going through the TOEE. We are having all kinds of fun with it. Many memorable scenes

I don't know much about converting it (being a mere player) but you could check in with our wise CK Nwelte, who is doing a great job (although we have slowly come to the realisation that he is trying to kill us :lol: ). He has converted the whole thing _and_ produced an entire maptools campaign of every map and monster token so it can be run over the internet.

In terms of how it plays, it is quite different from typical dungeons. In a normal dungeon of ruins or caverns, each area is fairly discrete, so each can be tackled separately. Attacking the TOEE is more like attacking an office tower. It's all connected. So if you attack room 2, the guys from rooms 3 and 4 join in. And if you rest in the dungeon, it's like resting in the computer room before tackling the cafeteria. People notice.
Also, it is pretty big. I don't know where we are but we have been playing for awhile. So the players need to be committed (to the asylum ;) )

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gideon_thorne
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by gideon_thorne »

You really shouldn't need to do a lot to convert any classic module to run with C&C. Its a tough adventure in AD&D itself, should'nt be any different in C&C. :)
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by Rigon »

Conversion should be haiti straight forward. Nwelte is doing a great job with our online game.

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mgtremaine
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by mgtremaine »

It's a dungeon that begs for the party to use Fire Trap/ Glyph of Warding/ Lock to add to the confusion of the temple faithful. ;)

{SPOILER.. CURENT PLAYERS AVERT THINE EYES}
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Also for anyone that has managed to get the Mirror of Mental Prowess they know it becomes much easier. (I'm not overly fond of the Iuz shows up portion however.)


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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by alcyone »

Ok, not reading any more of this topic until we're done playing; don't want any spoilers. Though I was almost sure I was done last week... and it might have even been my own party doing the killing!

(Edit. Yeah, I read more of the thread.)
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Aramis
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by Aramis »

Rigon wrote:Conversion should be haiti straight forward.

R-

Is this some new slang term of which I am unfamiliar? If we really like something, should we say "Yo, that was Bermuda!" or "he did a Dominican job on that one!"

:lol:
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Though I was almost sure I was done last week... and it might have even been my own party doing the killing!


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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by JediOre »

serleran wrote:I may have misremembered it from the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

I'll have to dig out a copy of the original.
The dragon is from Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

It's the giant frog in the original that can greet the unwary!
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that flying mummy! What could possibly happen?"

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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by Demiurge »

Aramis wrote: Live by the gargoyle, die by the gargoyle!
Words to live by. :D
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by redwullf »

JediOre wrote:
serleran wrote:I may have misremembered it from the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

I'll have to dig out a copy of the original.
The dragon is from Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

It's the giant frog in the original that can greet the unwary!
+1. In Return to the ToEE the ruined moathouse is occupied by a young blue dragon (oddly enough). The cultists are trapped beneath the moathouse by the dragon.
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blackmote
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by blackmote »

new here, but not new to AD&D gaming (27+ years)... and since the topic was started up, where does one find AD&D-to-C&C conversion tables or notes?

I have a shelf full of AD&D and AD&D 2E material collecting dust for the past almost ten years during the reign of 3.X D&D. And I'd love to be able to dig out the ToEE, the Curse of the Azure Bonds, the Ruins of UnderMountain, and so many more to utilize with C&C rules.

Any direction the veterans here could offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

~Hoyt.
"Nothing is so terrible that a huge red dragon can't make it just a hell of a lot worse."
-Dragon Magazine, issue #194, pg. 3

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MormonYoYoMan
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

Guess I just got into this before rules became so doggoned important. Never had difficulty adapting something from one ruleset to another -- well, except for Chivalry & Sorcery. Never converted anything to it, because a character record could take a ream of paper.

Essentially all I've ever done is imagine the statistics or rule or whatever - imagined it in Real Life. What would a strength of 17 be like? (Pretty Darned Strong) Once I imagined the character DOING something with that strength, it was just a quick hop, skip, and jump to translating that "something" into the "other" system.

To demonstrate it to my players - and to myself, really - I ran a competition at a MultiCon in 1980 or 1981, where the players who went to the next round - would find their characters in another game and world. (Darned dimension-hopping villains!) They went from Villains & Vigilantes to either Tunnels & Trolls or the Fantasy Trip (I think it was T&T) to Traveller to (original) Bunnies & Burrows and back to V&V. All with the same skills and similar stats, though they were transformed into bunnies in that next-to-last round.

Nowadays, it would be simple to run something like that with one of the "universal" engines - and I might try it with the SIEGE engine some day.

Don't let "every jot and tittle" of the letter of the rules hidebound you. Stop thinking of this as a game, and think of it as really happening - and you'll find yourself adapting without trying too hard.
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by alcyone »

blackmote wrote:new here, but not new to AD&D gaming (27+ years)... and since the topic was started up, where does one find AD&D-to-C&C conversion tables or notes?
If you can't find it, it's probably because there isn't that much to say. I find it a lot easier to convert published adventures for AD&D to C&C than 3.5e to C&C.

- Use the C&C rules for anything that C&C has a rule for.
- Look up any monsters in M&T or Classic Monsters instead of MM, MM II, FF.
- If you need to use a monster from AD&D, subtract the AC from 19 to get ascending AC. Assign them a prime of Physical, Mental, or Both depending on your gut feeling for the creature, possibly using their intelligence and special abilities as a guide.
- With special abilities, generally the AD&D mechanics are written out. Use SIEGE for saves, but I wouldn't sweat trying to make everything a SIEGE check if there is something else written up for the monster.
- Same with magic items; look them up in M&T, and if they aren't there, try to adapt whatever is in the DMG. Throw out whatever doesn't make sense.
- NPCs can either be converted straight to a corresponding C&C class, or more easily just like monsters. If stats are given, make primes per their class and highest stats, or just assign them a P/M/Both and go by their HD.
- Traps; the CKG has some guidelines for traps, but usually they are explained in the module and convert pretty easily.

I find it easier if I go through and do all of that ahead of time, but you certainly can do it on the fly. The C&C monsters might use a different die step for their HD or have other minor differences, but you can always eyeball them against the module's stat blocks and decide if they are too weak or powerful to function as intended.

I've run some modules using the above methods, and they mostly work fine. There might be interesting specific cases worthy of a deeper conversation, but that's what I remember. The key, I think, is not to think too hard about it.
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by Aramis »

blackmote wrote:new here, but not new to AD&D gaming (27+ years)... and since the topic was started up, where does one find AD&D-to-C&C conversion tables or notes?

I have a shelf full of AD&D and AD&D 2E material collecting dust for the past almost ten years during the reign of 3.X D&D. And I'd love to be able to dig out the ToEE, the Curse of the Azure Bonds, the Ruins of UnderMountain, and so many more to utilize with C&C rules.
~Hoyt.
I don't know if anyone has done a formal conversion document. But take heart, this is because conversion is so easy, pretty much everyone I know does it on the fly.

ACs have to be flipped for negative ACs (e.g. AC -2 = AC 22 I think). More importantly, all classed NPCs will need primes assigned. This can also be done on the fly, or for extra fun, make some excess D6s have sides S,D,C,I,W,Ch and randomize them (this idea is copyright Aramis :lol: )

Keep your old edition PH, DMG, and MMs nearby, because you will find some discrepancies in monster, spell, and item descriptions although again nothing that will require too much head scratching.

As for how it plays, I have been playing old school modules with my online groups for 5 years or so now and it works great. One difference I notice is that my vague recollections of AD&D are that mid to high level monsters and characters made quite a few saving throws. Whereas with C&C and its primes, everybody has a couple of achilles heels no matter how high their level. This makes magic more powerful in C&C than it was in AD&D. Also, C&C characters tend to be more powerful than their 1st ed. AD&D counterparts. Probably more like 2nd ed AD&D characters.

So break out the old modules and have some fun

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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by JediOre »

Aramis wrote:Also, C&C characters tend to be more powerful than their 1st ed. AD&D counterparts. Probably more like 2nd ed AD&D characters.

So break out the old modules and have some fun
I agree with all Aramis said, but I want to caution you that the fighter-types are not as powerful as their AD&D counterparts due to the fact they all have one-attack-per-round. The fighter, at 10th level gets 2 attacks per round in C&C. I've used rules based upon AD&D rules regarding this and I think it keeps the fighters/rangers/paladins/knights/barbarians on par with the other characters.

Here's my chart to aid with this (I had to come up with something for the "meat-shields" were getting killed in the G1-3 Giant series by Gygax):

Multiple Attacks per round with weapons:

Level Number of Attacks/Round
Fighter w/specialized weapon 1-6 3/2
7-12 2/1
Fighter/Barbarian/Knight 1-6 1-1
7-12 3/2
Ranger/Monk/Paladin/Bard 1-7 1/1
8-14 3/2

I put this together really fast just prior to our game session one morning and thus far it is working.
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that flying mummy! What could possibly happen?"

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mordrene
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Re: temple of elemental evil

Post by mordrene »

Thanks for the replies. Seems as though the brave fools will be entering hommlet next friday. for the newbies in our group i just hope i do the mod justice.

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