Skills in C&C...

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Treebore
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Skills in C&C...

Post by Treebore »

Don't get me wrong, I have come to love the very general way in which C&C handles "skills" with the SIEGE engine.

However, I am reading through some D&D Gazeteers I finally got my hands on after all these years. It reminded me of something I liked about how they ended up doing skills (optionally) in these Gaz's, Hollow World, and the World Emperor boxed set. You had to give priority to taking skills from a list. A list determined by where you were from as well as what class you were taking. You had to take skills from these two lists before you could branch out into anything else. Since you only start with 4 skills plus INT modifier, and only gain a new skill every few levels, this could take a while before you could "branch out" into skills outside of these lists.

I really like the flavor of doing this. I like how it makes the name of your place of origin more meaningful, and helps define your character. Same goes for your class.


So I am contemplating adding this element to my C&C games.

I know I have seen house rules with skills added on to C&C, but those are usually "Secondary Skills" added on from 2E, or a somewhat simplified version of 3E skills. So has anyone adapted skills from good old D&D? If so, I'd like to see your write up.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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mbeacom
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by mbeacom »

I haven't adapted anything as of now, but having fallen in love with the way Skills were done in the first D&D Next playtest, I've been contemplating trying to do it with my new C&C group. (they're new and any changes/homebrew that I do won't feel awkward so I have a bit more flexibility).

Basically, the concept is that you get a background (what you did before you took up the life of adventure). In D&D Next, they are prefab, but in my case, I'll allow the players to write their own, basically as part of the backstory. The premise is that any skill checks you make (siege engine in this case) that relate to your background, gain a plus 3 to the roll. That's it. It's that simple. So, lets say you want to make your background as an able bodied seaman. I would grant you a +3 on a siege check if you're trying to untie a knot. Or maybe your background is as a traveling salesmen, I might grant +3 on a siege check to barter, etc. Basically, this is an open ended skill system, (i.e. no actual list of skills, which is perfect for the siege engine, since all checks will still be vs. an attribute, rather than vs. a skill score). But the bonus will apply if whatever you're actually trying to do relates somehow to your background/backstory.
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Arduin
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Arduin »

What type of skills are you considering adding?
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Treebore
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:What type of skills are you considering adding?

I guess they would be along the lines of what I am seeing in the Gaz's.

So if I wanted to be a character from the Tribe of the Elk I would be required to choose the following skills first: Alertness, Find Traps, Hear Noise, Hide in Shadows, Stealth, Treewalking, and Danger Sense.

Obviously there is a bit of conflict with Class Skills in this, so I would have to change things up to fit C&C's rules about Class Skills versus people outside of those skills stepping on them. So I was thinking of having the selection of a skill giving a +2 to all checks related to a Class Skill and level still not being allowed to be added, and for non Class Skills selecting a skill gives a +1, and to be able to make something "Expert" quality within that skill, you must select the skill a second time to get a +2, as well as specify that no skill can be taken twice during character creation. So no one will be able to make anything "Expert" until they make a couple of levels.

Thats my line of thinking right now, anyways. I am sure I'll come up with other ideas as I think about this some more.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by serleran »

As I do not grant XP for level gaining, I do grant it for training, which is an optional thing a character can do when there is downtime or when I say "OK, level up." There are various effects possible, such as expending the earned XP to get maximum HP, or a re-roll (which is cheaper) of the HD type, but the thing I find players use the most is the "skill gain" for which I borrow from The Arcanum (2nd edition, simply because I don't want to ruin my 1st edition) and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play (also 1st edition). I also make great use of "assumed abilities" and encourage the players to think of what the PC did before becoming an adventurer... at least to give me an idea of what might be fun to pull out on them in the future (for example, one player wanted her elven mage to have been a bartender, which came in handy.)

The skills I would typically allow are not ones that require a roll. Once you have the ability, you have it. And, I don't really allow infringement into another class... unless the character becomes that class (through the XP cost of doing so.)

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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:What type of skills are you considering adding?

I guess they would be along the lines of what I am seeing in the Gaz's.

So if I wanted to be a character from the Tribe of the Elk I would be required to choose the following skills first: Alertness, Find Traps, Hear Noise, Hide in Shadows, Stealth, Treewalking, and Danger Sense.

Obviously there is a bit of conflict with Class Skills in this, so I would have to change things up to fit C&C's rules about Class Skills versus people outside of those skills stepping on them. So I was thinking of having the selection of a skill giving a +2 to all checks related to a Class Skill and level still not being allowed to be added, and for non Class Skills selecting a skill gives a +1, and to be able to make something "Expert" quality within that skill, you must select the skill a second time to get a +2, as well as specify that no skill can be taken twice during character creation. So no one will be able to make anything "Expert" until they make a couple of levels.

Thats my line of thinking right now, anyways. I am sure I'll come up with other ideas as I think about this some more.
I see. The +2 & no level adding for non-class skills sounds good to me.
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Arakor »

Treebore wrote:Obviously there is a bit of conflict with Class Skills in this, so I would have to change things up to fit C&C's rules about Class Skills versus people outside of those skills stepping on them. So I was thinking of having the selection of a skill giving a +2 to all checks related to a Class Skill and level still not being allowed to be added, and for non Class Skills selecting a skill gives a +1, and to be able to make something "Expert" quality within that skill, you must select the skill a second time to get a +2, as well as specify that no skill can be taken twice during character creation. So no one will be able to make anything "Expert" until they make a couple of levels.
Working from memory (I've got all the Gazetteers in dead tree format except for Aelfheim which I've got in PDF), each skill allows you to roll against an Attribute to succeed at a task. Each time you took the skill, it gave you a +1 to the attribute or +1 against the default penalty. i.e. Riding was a roll against Dex with a -4 penalty.

What you said about the skill giving +2 to a class skill, actually made me remember that there is a precedence for this. Check out the Half-Elf and the bonuses they get if they take the Ranger class. Since they get Move Silently for being a Ranger and for being a Half-Elf, the class skill is rolled with a +2 bonus to your roll.

So I'd argue that a Tribe of the Elk Ranger should have the +2 bonus to his roll because he is on a par with a Half-Elven Ranger, and a damn sight better than any of the other tribes.

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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Julian Grimm »

mbeacom wrote:I haven't adapted anything as of now, but having fallen in love with the way Skills were done in the first D&D Next playtest, I've been contemplating trying to do it with my new C&C group. (they're new and any changes/homebrew that I do won't feel awkward so I have a bit more flexibility).

Basically, the concept is that you get a background (what you did before you took up the life of adventure). In D&D Next, they are prefab, but in my case, I'll allow the players to write their own, basically as part of the backstory. The premise is that any skill checks you make (siege engine in this case) that relate to your background, gain a plus 3 to the roll. That's it. It's that simple. So, lets say you want to make your background as an able bodied seaman. I would grant you a +3 on a siege check if you're trying to untie a knot. Or maybe your background is as a traveling salesmen, I might grant +3 on a siege check to barter, etc. Basically, this is an open ended skill system, (i.e. no actual list of skills, which is perfect for the siege engine, since all checks will still be vs. an attribute, rather than vs. a skill score). But the bonus will apply if whatever you're actually trying to do relates somehow to your background/backstory.

I love how the backgrounds are handled in D&D Next and have looked at using them in C&C as well. The only thing holding me back is that I want to see a few more background before I begin adapting them.
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by mbeacom »

Julian Grimm wrote:
mbeacom wrote:I haven't adapted anything as of now, but having fallen in love with the way Skills were done in the first D&D Next playtest, I've been contemplating trying to do it with my new C&C group. (they're new and any changes/homebrew that I do won't feel awkward so I have a bit more flexibility).

Basically, the concept is that you get a background (what you did before you took up the life of adventure). In D&D Next, they are prefab, but in my case, I'll allow the players to write their own, basically as part of the backstory. The premise is that any skill checks you make (siege engine in this case) that relate to your background, gain a plus 3 to the roll. That's it. It's that simple. So, lets say you want to make your background as an able bodied seaman. I would grant you a +3 on a siege check if you're trying to untie a knot. Or maybe your background is as a traveling salesmen, I might grant +3 on a siege check to barter, etc. Basically, this is an open ended skill system, (i.e. no actual list of skills, which is perfect for the siege engine, since all checks will still be vs. an attribute, rather than vs. a skill score). But the bonus will apply if whatever you're actually trying to do relates somehow to your background/backstory.

I love how the backgrounds are handled in D&D Next and have looked at using them in C&C as well. The only thing holding me back is that I want to see a few more background before I begin adapting them.
That's probably a good idea. For my purposes though, we're crafting backgrounds ourselves and aren't particularly worried about balance. We're sticking to the basic premise that background skills grant a +3 and that you'll have to justify the skill used through roleplay. We may eventually include some broad categorization just to give a bit more direction to their use.
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Julian Grimm
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Julian Grimm »

I just want to see a few more examples. Especially for the classes that have not been released yet.
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Lord Dynel
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Lord Dynel »

I think they'd be okay, Tree. I had to take a look at them before posting, since it had been a while since I perused them. As you said, there are some class skill conflict, but nothing that can't be remedied.

Question, Tree - are skills an aspect of your game that you miss or make your games lack (assuming you don't use some skill system at the present)?
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Re: Skills in C&C...

Post by Treebore »

Lord Dynel wrote:I think they'd be okay, Tree. I had to take a look at them before posting, since it had been a while since I perused them. As you said, there are some class skill conflict, but nothing that can't be remedied.

Question, Tree - are skills an aspect of your game that you miss or make your games lack (assuming you don't use some skill system at the present)?
Reading the Gazeteers just reminded me that skills, when done like they are done in the Gazeteers, actually help give your character some flavor, history, and a tangible connection to the PC's homeland. So I'd like to try and replicate that in my games. Just have to come up with a simple way to do it, which will include writing up lists based on locations in the campaign settings I like to use. Such as Aihrde and Wilderlands. If I ever use Faerun again, that has been done in products I bought. Think I'd have to create my own lists for Greyhawk as well. I think Ravenloft has been done.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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