Rigon's "new" house rules

[Rigon]

At this point I'm going with "I think I rolled a 1 when trying to hit the submit button"... well, I'll take a stab at resubmitting... drat!

What is the "rule" on quasi-PC profanity? Like Damn

Well, my dad was a truck driver for 30 years, so there isn't anything you can say that I've never heard before.

R-

[Captain_K]

I will try again... I like both your and Tree's house rules.

Many of the common threads and house rules have a common theme: how to get more play time and fun out of the game and less "lets hide in a room and regain our spells and hp.." Rest, food, water, healing, etc. are part of the game but not as much fun as the "loosing of hp and spells..."

To that end what do you think of this simple idea. If hit points (hp), especially large amounts of hp in PCs, are a measure of skill, luck and the ability to not actually take brute damage, then why not let some of those lost recover more quickly. I realize being impaled by spear nearly killing you should not "get better over night", but a 10th lvl fighter does not get "impaled" when an orc hits him with a spear for 6 pts of damage.. might not even be a scratch.

Thus I was think for my next game trying out this house rule:
OHR#1: HP Recovery
1) Post combat or strenuous activity (no running, walking, etc.) any PC can focus their efforts to recover from recent damage with rest, repair, first aide, working out damaged armor or body parts, etc. If there are not specific reasons that the damage recently received is not partially recoverable, then the PC may recover up to half of the damage at a rate of one (class) HD plus CON bonus per 10 turns (minutes). Ex. Brother Darrius has received many small nicks, cuts, bruises and is well winded after his combat with 4 Goblins (26 hp of damage total from 6 wounds); his superior Martial training with devastating kicks and punches reduced the Goblins to unconscious prisoners in 6 rounds. After Brother Darrius tossed them into the holding pit, he sat down against a shady tree near by, flexed his bruised muscles, staunched some minor bleeding, focused his chi, and began to meditate while keeping an ear on the pit for signs of Goblin consciousness. Brother Darrius can regain d12+2 (16 CON) hp for every 10 minutes he continues in this manner to a maximum of 13 total hp. The other 13 hp will need much longer resting time (days), skilled healing, or magical healing.
2) Clerics and Druids can and typically do a good deal of praying/chanting while recovering their own lost hps.
3) Some book keeping will be required to note how much of recent damage could be recovered (eventually) and how much cannot. That which is true tissue damage will require normal long term rest and medical care OR more typically magical healing.

This does not solve everything, and if one is not brought to full hp before the next fight, more and more of the missing hp cannot be recovered in this manner. Ex Even thought Barney the Bard was able to fully recover on his own a good portion of his lost hps, after two fights bring Barney the Bard to near unconsciousness each time, Barney must find magical healing because he has just 1/4 of his maximum normal hp left.

If each PC is able to recover about 1/2 of their own lost hps in less than one hour of real game time after a battle that is less hp for the clerics, druids (an now Illusionists) to attempt to heal. Less time ducking and hiding and more time for the exciting stuff. Still have do some of the healing and worry, just not as much.

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, this just seemed simple. Thoughts?

[Aramis]

Interesting idea Kirk. I think 4E has something called "healing surges" which might be similar to what you are proposing. I am not sure, since I have never read 4E.

Your idea hits upon one of the "debates" in D&D, which is "are HP representative mostly of bone and muscle, or are they mostly stamina?". If they are mostly stamina, then most of them should restore fairly rapidly. So one might "heal" 2x level if a front line fighter and 1xlevel if not, after every encounter, just as a quick and dirty rejuvenation.

Certainly, if HP are mostly stamina and luck, one would expect most would restore naturaly after one night's sleep. Thus, the typical resting healing rate of 1 hp/day seems completely at odds with the "mostly stamina" view of HP.

One problem with the stamina view, and the subsequent easy healing that results, is that the balance for dungeons can get a bit out of whack, since dungeons are often built more on the "long resting" assumption, with magic being the special shortcut in the dungeon.

Some games also have a bifurcated system where damage is counted against stamina first, but then eventually turns into wounds, often with some negative effect on character performance. I find these models excellent in theory, but in play they always seem so much more fiddly and book keepy than good old D&D where you just track HPs, and try to ignore the fact that the 99 HP fighter fights exactly as well when reduced to 3 HP, and without magical help can be expected to spend a few months resting until he is back to 99 HP .

[Captain_K]

I think the important thing is getting the Cleric out of being "medic" and forced to take nothing but "Cure X wounds" and playing all sorts of odd games to "heal" all the time. Mind you in "real life" anyone who takes any significant wound is down for a LONG time...but in our games, magic healing gets PCs going fast, but it turns into Clerics with nothing but "cure light wounds" and trying to find a safe room to hide in, setting watches, etc etc. The first time a group figures all that out is fun, but the 20th time its pretty dull stuff.

Which brings me to
OHR#2: Clerics & Druids can exchange any spell in memory for a healing spell of the same level. In this way they can memorize other spells and not have to use up slots with "Cure X Wounds"... multiple times. When they need them, they convert to them. Further there is a "Cure X Wounds" at each level up to Heal and for Druids it would be one level higher. Not sure yet how Illusionist healing will fit into this "House Rule #2" yet since I do not yet have the latest PH. Still wondering when Rev 6 will hit the streets....

The above House Rule gives these two (three?) classes healing abilities while still able to cast other spells when needed, possibly with the result of saving folks from needing so much healing. Adds some nice versatility to these two classes. With OHR#1, the number of healing spells will be cut in half too, keeping these two great classes free to do "Great Deeds" on their own.

I think that was a rule in one of the versions of DnD, so nothing really new here. But the two house rules go hand in hand.

[Rigon]

Kirk, your first rule is definitely an interesting idea. It is a little too much bookkeeping for me, but I don't think it would be overpowered.
As to the second rule, I do something similar with my clerics and Druids.

R-

[Natha]

Which brings me to
OHR#2: Clerics & Druids can exchange any spell in memory for a healing spell of the same level. In this way they can memorize other spells and not have to use up slots with "Cure X Wounds"... multiple times. When they need them, they convert to them.

Another solution is to use mana points or spell slots (as in the CKG options), instead of the pure vancian magic, thus the spellcasters can choose the spell to cast at the moment (and not prepare anything in advance).

[Treebore]

Yeah, right now I have HP recovery split into two factors, actual damage, and loss of stamina/luck. I probably should also mention I define HP IAW the 1E DMG, not C&C. So in my games, it is a combination of actual physical damage, and loss of luck and stamina. So I have both being recovered in a 24 hour period, but concurrently, IE at the same time. I am thinking of increasing the Stamina/Luck half of it to an hourly check. Just only roll checks when the time is actually in question. When I know their rest won't be interrupted, I'll just assume averages, and not require any rolls.

I also keep the Cleric from being the walking band aid dispenser by enabling the group to obtain a decent number of healing potions and healing items such as wands. I also already use the 3E idea of allowing clerics to spontaneously convert any spell into a "cure" spell, so not the Heal spell, so if they want to convert spells of 5th level and higher, I allow them to be changed into a 1d8/level healing spell. For curing anything else, blindness, poison, etc... they still need to pray for the right spell.

As my players here on line can attest, the game still remains a challenge, and they still face death often enough. Just having yet another avenue to quickly recover their HP would make living a little easier on all of us. My hardest challenge as a GM is to challenge the players without killing them, so anything that helps them stay alive longer is a good thing in my book.

[Rigon]

I may think about doing level + con mod for hp recovery over a rest. Now I use 1 + con mod , so this would allow for speedier recovery along with all of my other ways.

R-

[Captain_K]

To Natha's point, I'm torn between the classic pure Vancian magic system in CnC PH and Mana points. I've tried both and I like both. For new folks the Vancian system seems simpler... experiences? thoughts?

I was thinking of trying the following minor mod to the Vancian PH based system. The below mod would includes the cleric 1d8 heal/spell level convert idea already noted as an addition to the concept below. I like the simple d8/lvl or d8/(lvl-1) for druids at any level - thanks Tree.

OHR#3 Expanded Spell Memory - All Spell Casters

1) Same CnC PH spells per day and use of tables, but each spell casting PC get's their INT or WIS bonus to each spell level to determine the number of spells "in memory". Class ability "Bonus Spells" for high WIS/INT are additive. Ex. A 3rd lvl Druid with a 16 WIS (+2 for score plus a BONUS 1st and 2nd lvl spell too) would be able to "store in memory" 4+2 0th level spells, 2+1+2 1st lvl spells, and 1+1+2 2nd lvl spells.
2) These are the spells they "pray for" (in this case as opposed to memorize form a book for arcane users) and have handy "in memory" until cast.
3) The PC can cast any of these spells in memory with no limit to repeating a spell in memory - it is not truly "wiped away" when cast, only one spell use of that level in the normal time frame is used - the "slot" or "mana" of the spell was used not the memory of how to cast that specific spell. So in the example above, the 3rd lvl Druid would still only be able to cast 4 0th lvl spells, 3 1sts, and 2 2nds. But they could be from any of the 6, 5, or 4 spells in memory.

This gives all casters the same level of "repeatability" without having to multiple memorize a spell. Gives more variety without more spells being cast. I view this as a minor change, adding depth and purpose to the casters and spell "options" to choose from only slightly longer than normal.

What I like about this simple change is even a first level caster with a reasonable INT/WIS (do you really play one of these classes without a 13 in the PRIME?) should have three spells in "memory", offense, defense, and variable while two can be cast.

This may simply be a minor or "baby" step into full Mana use.. thoughts?

[Rigon]

I changed the healing rules a little.

Daily Healing: Heal back 1/level + Con bonus HPs per day w/appropriate rest.

R-

[Treebore]

To Natha's point, I'm torn between the classic pure Vancian magic system in CnC PH and Mana points. I've tried both and I like both. For new folks the Vancian system seems simpler... experiences? thoughts?

I was thinking of trying the following minor mod to the Vancian PH based system. The below mod would includes the cleric 1d8 heal/spell level convert idea already noted as an addition to the concept below. I like the simple d8/lvl or d8/(lvl-1) for druids at any level - thanks Tree.

OHR#3 Expanded Spell Memory - All Spell Casters

1) Same CnC PH spells per day and use of tables, but each spell casting PC get's their INT or WIS bonus to each spell level to determine the number of spells "in memory". Class ability "Bonus Spells" for high WIS/INT are additive. Ex. A 3rd lvl Druid with a 16 WIS (+2 for score plus a BONUS 1st and 2nd lvl spell too) would be able to "store in memory" 4+2 0th level spells, 2+1+2 1st lvl spells, and 1+1+2 2nd lvl spells.
2) These are the spells they "pray for" (in this case as opposed to memorize form a book for arcane users) and have handy "in memory" until cast.
3) The PC can cast any of these spells in memory with no limit to repeating a spell in memory - it is not truly "wiped away" when cast, only one spell use of that level in the normal time frame is used - the "slot" or "mana" of the spell was used not the memory of how to cast that specific spell. So in the example above, the 3rd lvl Druid would still only be able to cast 4 0th lvl spells, 3 1sts, and 2 2nds. But they could be from any of the 6, 5, or 4 spells in memory.

This gives all casters the same level of "repeatability" without having to multiple memorize a spell. Gives more variety without more spells being cast. I view this as a minor change, adding depth and purpose to the casters and spell "options" to choose from only slightly longer than normal.

What I like about this simple change is even a first level caster with a reasonable INT/WIS (do you really play one of these classes without a 13 in the PRIME?) should have three spells in "memory", offense, defense, and variable while two can be cast.

This may simply be a minor or "baby" step into full Mana use.. thoughts?

I like it. I'll have to give some serious thought to allowing it.

[docdoom77]

I changed the healing rules a little.

Daily Healing: Heal back 1/level + Con bonus HPs per day w/appropriate rest.

R-

That's exactly what I was planning on doing. ;D

[Rigon]

I changed the healing rules a little.

Daily Healing: Heal back 1/level + Con bonus HPs per day w/appropriate rest.

R-

That's exactly what I was planning on doing. ;D

I've been reading Davis' S&S articles on the blog and it's been making me think about how HPs work. So I felt that a bump in HP recover was in order.

R-

[docdoom77]

I hate the standard 1 hp/day, because it means a 10th level character takes significantly longer to heal from near dead, than for a 1st level character. That is something that really gets under my skin. 1/lvl/day kinda solves it by making it proportional and I want high con characters to heal faster than low con, so 1/lvl + con/day.

How do you plan on implementing monk healing rates? I thought I would just add their special healing rate right on top of this.

[Rigon]

I hate the standard 1 hp/day, because it means a 10th level character takes significantly longer to heal from near dead, than for a 1st level character. That is something that really gets under my skin. 1/lvl/day kinda solves it by making it proportional and I want high con characters to heal faster than low con, so 1/lvl + con/day.

How do you plan on implementing monk healing rates? I thought I would just add their special healing rate right on top of this.

That's probably how I'll handle it.

R-

[Lord Dynel]

I hate the standard 1 hp/day, because it means a 10th level character takes significantly longer to heal from near dead, than for a 1st level character. That is something that really gets under my skin. 1/lvl/day kinda solves it by making it proportional and I want high con characters to heal faster than low con, so 1/lvl + con/day.

How do you plan on implementing monk healing rates? I thought I would just add their special healing rate right on top of this.

That's probably how I'll handle it.

R-

I've always been bothered by damage. I know it's abstract, but here is the dichotomy that goes on in my brain...

1) a sword swing does 5 points of damage (or a whole combat, or whatnot...however you want to look at it). To a 1st level fighter, that might have nearly killed him. To a 5th level fighter, it was a moderate wound, but nothing too dreadful. It takes 5 days (at 1 hp/day) and both are fully healed. Both. The one that was half dead and the one that was only moderately wounded.

Or...

2) a sword swing does 5 points of damage (or a whole combat, or whatnot...however you want to look at it). To a 1st level fighter, that might have nearly killed him. To a 5th level fighter, it was a moderate wound, but nothing too dreadful. Under the 1 hp/level/day rule, the 5th level fighter will heal much quicker from the same wound(s) that the 1st level fighter took.

I like scenario #2 better, because it's more representative of the "fact" that the 5 hp of wounds is less representative of the whole of the 5th level fighter's health/toughness. He's been around a while, survived up to 5th level, and a battle that does 5 hp of damage is going to be far less threatening (a short sword stab, for instance) to him than it would for the fledgling 1st level fighter.

[Captain_K]

Thought on spell casting to fighter classes or for that matter Bard, would not simply allowing or encouraging PCs to "class and a half" work? Paladin, class and a half with Cleric, Ranger with Druid, Bard with Illusionist (or classically Druid). Then for fun, Thief with Illusionist or Monk with Cleric. One could even keep with the delayed start so that it is class and a half starting at 4th or 6th or some other level other than 1st. The base class could allow for normal progression with a special "branch" of the class taking special "rights" or "teaching" or "training" to become class and a half. Would be logical that the class prime of the "half class" would have to be or become a prime or at least high enough for a bonus?? Just noodling here..

[Rigon]

Thought on spell casting to fighter classes or for that matter Bard, would not simply allowing or encouraging PCs to "class and a half" work? Paladin, class and a half with Cleric, Ranger with Druid, Bard with Illusionist (or classically Druid). Then for fun, Thief with Illusionist or Monk with Cleric. One could even keep with the delayed start so that it is class and a half starting at 4th or 6th or some other level other than 1st. The base class could allow for normal progression with a special "branch" of the class taking special "rights" or "teaching" or "training" to become class and a half. Would be logical that the class prime of the "half class" would have to be or become a prime or at least high enough for a bonus?? Just noodling here..

You could do it that way if you wanted to. A good deal of my house rules were formed before the 4th printing and class and a half rules. Besides, my preferred D&D has always been 2e, so I chose to make my C&C more like 2e.

R-

[Captain_K]

I'm with you. After so many years (well in my case) of AD&D second edition was "cool" and new and great and I really liked many of the new aspects (all those priests, thieves the way you wanted them, etc.)... little did I know it would turn into a cancer that would, IMO, kill the game (at least for me) with 3, 3.5, 3.75, 3.85, 3.9, etc. Lots of cool stuff in 2.0.

[docdoom77]

I hate the standard 1 hp/day, because it means a 10th level character takes significantly longer to heal from near dead, than for a 1st level character. That is something that really gets under my skin. 1/lvl/day kinda solves it by making it proportional and I want high con characters to heal faster than low con, so 1/lvl + con/day.

How do you plan on implementing monk healing rates? I thought I would just add their special healing rate right on top of this.

That's probably how I'll handle it.

R-

I've always been bothered by damage. I know it's abstract, but here is the dichotomy that goes on in my brain...

1) a sword swing does 5 points of damage (or a whole combat, or whatnot...however you want to look at it). To a 1st level fighter, that might have nearly killed him. To a 5th level fighter, it was a moderate wound, but nothing too dreadful. It takes 5 days (at 1 hp/day) and both are fully healed. Both. The one that was half dead and the one that was only moderately wounded.

Or...

2) a sword swing does 5 points of damage (or a whole combat, or whatnot...however you want to look at it). To a 1st level fighter, that might have nearly killed him. To a 5th level fighter, it was a moderate wound, but nothing too dreadful. Under the 1 hp/level/day rule, the 5th level fighter will heal much quicker from the same wound(s) that the 1st level fighter took.

I like scenario #2 better, because it's more representative of the "fact" that the 5 hp of wounds is less representative of the whole of the 5th level fighter's health/toughness. He's been around a while, survived up to 5th level, and a battle that does 5 hp of damage is going to be far less threatening (a short sword stab, for instance) to him than it would for the fledgling 1st level fighter.

The other thing to consider here is that 5 hp of damage to a 1st level fighter is more damage, while to the 5th level fighter it's more exhaustion, scrapes and bruises. Higher HP represents your ability to avoid grievous wounds as much as it does toughness.

[Captain_K]

DocDoom77, Seems like you support the idea well. If higher PC damage is less "direct", then recovery should be faster or the same. Almost like "If a PC is at 50% damage from their max, take 5 days to recover naturally. 90%, 9 days, 10% 1 day, 99% (aka deaths door) 10 days.".. Mind you I'm just guessing here. Add in something like "One less day per CON bonus but never less than 1 day of rest" and I think we have our bases covered.

[Lurker]

I might be muddying the water here a bit (I'll start off by saying I agree with HPs being less direct and more reflective of intangibles that come with experience)

What about the effect of undead touch with this view of HPs? When is a undead's hit just a near miss which takes away some of that luck and stamina - and therefore not having the nasty undead effect, and when is it actually making contact squarely and doing 'real' damage - and having the nasty undead effect?

[docdoom77]

I might be muddying the water here a bit (I'll start off by saying I agree with HPs being less direct and more reflective of intangibles that come with experience)

What about the effect of undead touch with this view of HPs? When is a undead's hit just a near miss which takes away some of that luck and stamina - and therefore not having the nasty undead effect, and when is it actually making contact squarely and doing 'real' damage - and having the nasty undead effect?

This way madness lies.

I try not to think about it too much.

[Treebore]

I just look at anything that is good enough to make you lose HP is good enough to cause any effect.

[Rigon]

I just look at anything that is good enough to make you lose HP is good enough to cause any effect.

Yep, pretty much.

R-

[Lurker]

I just look at anything that is good enough to make you lose HP is good enough to cause any effect.

Yep, pretty much.

R-

Ok, nice simple to the point.

If pressed, you could always narrate it as even being just a finger grazing living flesh is enough to have the evil in the undead suck your life force/age you/etc etc etc

This way madness lies.

I try not to think about it too much.

I'm already half way there (probably closer than that after today and my cadets) so even a passing thought could put me over the edge !

But rgr on the trying not to think about it too much.

[Rigon]

I added some rules to the Magic section, the Magic Item section, and the Combat section.

Magic
Spell Resistance: To overcome SR, a caster rolls a d20 and adds their relevant Attribute bonus (Int for arcane, Wis for divine).

Magic Items
Holy Avengers: the SR given for Holy Avengers is a static SR 10 (not 5+level).
Elven Chain: Elven Chain has no innate magical bonus to its AC (base AC of +5). However, it is considered the same as padded armor for weight, encumbrance, and casting in armor checks. It can be enchanted like other armors.

Combat
Dual Wielding: If a character is Dex Prime, they get a bonus to dual wielding. They gain a +2 to both attacks. This offsets the -3/-6 of normal dual wielding. A high Dex bonus can never give a positive to an attack roll, it just offsets the negative. (Rigon has Dex prime and a Dex of 20. He dual wields. His attacks rolls are made at +0/+0 (-2 offset by +4 Dex bonus and -4 offset by +4 Dex bonus). He does still add any Str bonus to the attack roll.

R-

[Rigon]

After a discussion last night in Tree's game, I'm also thinking of adding a chart of heights, weights, and maybe starting age to my house rules. I had one before, but might come up with something else.

R-

[Rigon]

Just added this:

Attributes beyond 19: To determine what bonuses and benefits are gained for Attributes above 19, use Table 1.5 God-like Attributes on page 12 of the CKG.

R-

[Rigon]

A thought on Combat Dominance: how powerful would it be to allow the fighter to make 1 attack per level to all creatures that have half the fighter's hit dice? Ex. a 4th level fighter could make 4 attacks against creatures with 2 or fewer hit dice, at 5th level, the fighter could make 5 attacks against 2 or fewer hit dice creatures, at 6th level, he could make 6 attacks vs 3 or less HD, etc.

Thoughts/opinions?

R-