Rigon's "new" house rules

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

If I were going to allow fighters to specialize in groups instead of single weapons, this is how I would breakdown all of the weapons in the PHB. The only one not included is the blowpipe (I could determine which group to put it in).

Axes: battle axe, bearded axe, hand/throwing axe, piercing axe, 2-handed axe, hatchet
Bows: longbow, short bow, comp longbow, comp short bow
Clubs: club, light mace, heavy mace, morningstar, godentag
Crossbows: hight crossbow, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow
Flails: sap, hight flail, heavy flail
Hammers: light hammer, war hammer, maul
Heavy Polearms: bardiche, glaive, glaive guisarme, guisarme, halberd, lucerne hammer, pike, ranseur
Lances: light lance, heavy lance
Large Blades: 2-handed sword, bastard sword, falchion, great scimitar, flamberge
Light Polearms: bec de corbin, bill or billhook, fauchard, fauchard fork, military fork, partisan, voulge
Long Blades: broad sword, long sword, scimitar, nine ring broad sword
Picks: light pick, heavy pick, crowbill
Punching Weapons: brass knuckles, cestus, katar
Reaping Weapons: scythe, sickle, hafted hook
Short Blades: short sword, rapier, tulwar, hook sword, flatchet
Small Blades: knife, cleaver, dagger, dirk, main gauche, poniard
Spears: spear, long spear, wolf spear, staff, triden, man catcher, sleeve tangler
Throwing Weapons: harpoon, javelin, aclis, dart, slings, bolas
Whips: cat-o-nine-tails, whip


The specialization rule would look like this (bold words indicate a change from my current rules):
Weapon Specialization: At first level, the fighter selects one weapon group to become an expert with. The fighter gains a +1 to hit and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 6 levels thereafter (+2 at 7th, +3 at 13th, etc) to a total bonus of +5. Furthermore, a fighter can add his to hit bonus from specialization to his BtH for determining eligibility for extra attacks, but only with weapons from the specialized group. (Extra attacks with specialized weapons at levels 5, 10, & 15)

As always, thoughts appreciated.

R-
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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

serleran wrote:I'm not really a huge fan of weapon groups, but I have considered it. One thing I might do would be to think along technological lines, for example...

Primitives include ax (hatchet), staff, sling, spear, dagger (knife), net, hammer, and short bow (this is purposefully incomplete because I don't remember all the weapons listed in the PHB)

Bronze Age includes sword short, long bow, battle ax, warhammer, and those previously available

and so forth. Then, the character just comes from an area that defines weapon access.
Serl, that's an interesting take.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

Rigon wrote:
serleran wrote:I'm not really a huge fan of weapon groups, but I have considered it. One thing I might do would be to think along technological lines, for example...

Primitives include ax (hatchet), staff, sling, spear, dagger (knife), net, hammer, and short bow (this is purposefully incomplete because I don't remember all the weapons listed in the PHB)

Bronze Age includes sword short, long bow, battle ax, warhammer, and those previously available

and so forth. Then, the character just comes from an area that defines weapon access.
Serl, that's an interesting take.

R-
Along that same line of thought you could seperate it by what weapons are accesible to the area an IRL example in Japan the use axe's or polearms wasn't popular but the use of staffs daggers single handed long swords and spears were popular

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Treebore »

Rigon wrote:If I were going to allow fighters to specialize in groups instead of single weapons, this is how I would breakdown all of the weapons in the PHB. The only one not included is the blowpipe (I could determine which group to put it in).

Axes: battle axe, bearded axe, hand/throwing axe, piercing axe, 2-handed axe, hatchet
Bows: longbow, short bow, comp longbow, comp short bow
Clubs: club, light mace, heavy mace, morningstar, godentag
Crossbows: hight crossbow, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow
Flails: sap, hight flail, heavy flail
Hammers: light hammer, war hammer, maul
Heavy Polearms: bardiche, glaive, glaive guisarme, guisarme, halberd, lucerne hammer, pike, ranseur
Lances: light lance, heavy lance
Large Blades: 2-handed sword, bastard sword, falchion, great scimitar, flamberge
Light Polearms: bec de corbin, bill or billhook, fauchard, fauchard fork, military fork, partisan, voulge
Long Blades: broad sword, long sword, scimitar, nine ring broad sword
Picks: light pick, heavy pick, crowbill
Punching Weapons: brass knuckles, cestus, katar
Reaping Weapons: scythe, sickle, hafted hook
Short Blades: short sword, rapier, tulwar, hook sword, flatchet
Small Blades: knife, cleaver, dagger, dirk, main gauche, poniard
Spears: spear, long spear, wolf spear, staff, triden, man catcher, sleeve tangler
Throwing Weapons: harpoon, javelin, aclis, dart, slings, bolas
Whips: cat-o-nine-tails, whip


The specialization rule would look like this (bold words indicate a change from my current rules):
Weapon Specialization: At first level, the fighter selects one weapon group to become an expert with. The fighter gains a +1 to hit and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 6 levels thereafter (+2 at 7th, +3 at 13th, etc) to a total bonus of +5. Furthermore, a fighter can add his to hit bonus from specialization to his BtH for determining eligibility for extra attacks, but only with weapons from the specialized group. (Extra attacks with specialized weapons at levels 5, 10, & 15)

As always, thoughts appreciated.

R-
Seems reasonable. The only question I have at this point is if you allow STR to be added to any weapon when thrown or hurled. The biggy for me being Slings. CK's usually have no problems saying yes to hammers, but then get uncertain with just about everything else, especially Slings. I got used to it being added to Slings with 1E and 2E, so....
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

Treebore wrote:Seems reasonable. The only question I have at this point is if you allow STR to be added to any weapon when thrown or hurled. The biggy for me being Slings. CK's usually have no problems saying yes to hammers, but then get uncertain with just about everything else, especially Slings. I got used to it being added to Slings with 1E and 2E, so....
I wouldn't have a problem with that.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

Hey Rigon, quick question, did you feel the need to alter the XP tables for some of the classes, I was thinking of adopting your paladin house rules and wasn't sure how I gelt about giving them the clerical spells without a penalty, so I guess I was wondering how you handled it in your games and how it worked out?

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

Dracyian wrote:Hey Rigon, quick question, did you feel the need to alter the XP tables for some of the classes, I was thinking of adopting your paladin house rules and wasn't sure how I gelt about giving them the clerical spells without a penalty, so I guess I was wondering how you handled it in your games and how it worked out?
No, I looked at the xp charts and compared them to 2e's xp charts for the classes I gave spellcasting ability to and decided that I could live with them the way they were. Besides, the paladin alread pays more for xp than any other class, so I just let them be.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

That what I was expecting and leaning towards myself, but seeing as how you have probably have ran a few games now with the paladin and those rules I would ask to see how your experience and what your opinion on the matter was, thank you much sir.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Treebore »

No one is playing a Paladin right now. Nwelte and I are the ones who usually play Paladins, and I am playing a Fighter and Nwelte hasn't been able to play with him starting up his own law office, etc...

Personally I am not worried about it either. The Paladin is already so XP heavy that adding more would be more like a punishment than a game balance attempt. Also, since the C&C XP requirements for Paladins aren't all that far off from 1E AD&D, I'm good with it anyways.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

Awesome thank you guys so much, I have begun toiling over a david eddings setting based from the Elenium and Tamuli books for my next C&C campaign and all the church knights, once knighted are taught the secrets which is magic, I was thinking of making them either the Paladin Rigon has or extending the XP of a knight to match a paladin and give them the same spell run that Rigon gives his paladins (This thought just jumped into my head thinking about how the knights in the book are on horses and make mounted charges) Or I could just take the Knight give it the cleric spells like rigon has and call the class the church knight leaving the knight in place s someone can be a regular knight if they wanted to also

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Treebore »

Dracyian wrote:Awesome thank you guys so much, I have begun toiling over a david eddings setting based from the Elenium and Tamuli books for my next C&C campaign and all the church knights, once knighted are taught the secrets which is magic, I was thinking of making them either the Paladin Rigon has or extending the XP of a knight to match a paladin and give them the same spell run that Rigon gives his paladins (This thought just jumped into my head thinking about how the knights in the book are on horses and make mounted charges) Or I could just take the Knight give it the cleric spells like rigon has and call the class the church knight leaving the knight in place s someone can be a regular knight if they wanted to also

I would probably go with the Church Knight.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

that is what I keep leaning towards, because the book has them making mounted charges as knights with lances as being devastational

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by serleran »

Lances are devastating. They have decent damage and they deal lots of damage when charging... double or triple, as I recall. The average person cannot survive an impact like that, being 0-level and having somewhere in the 4-9 HP area (if they're lucky.) Be naughty and let them add Strength adjustments from the speed and a lance can get awful disturbing.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

serleran wrote:Lances are devastating. They have decent damage and they deal lots of damage when charging... double or triple, as I recall. The average person cannot survive an impact like that, being 0-level and having somewhere in the 4-9 HP area (if they're lucky.) Be naughty and let them add Strength adjustments from the speed and a lance can get awful disturbing.
This is just mildly terrifying

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Treebore »

Dracyian wrote:
serleran wrote:Lances are devastating. They have decent damage and they deal lots of damage when charging... double or triple, as I recall. The average person cannot survive an impact like that, being 0-level and having somewhere in the 4-9 HP area (if they're lucky.) Be naughty and let them add Strength adjustments from the speed and a lance can get awful disturbing.
This is just mildly terrifying
Oh yeah, when a Knight actually gets to do this, it is AWESOME! Unfortunately most of the time we seem to be inside of buildings or tunnels or some such, so don't get to do it nearly as often as we would like.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

Treebore wrote:
Dracyian wrote:
serleran wrote:Lances are devastating. They have decent damage and they deal lots of damage when charging... double or triple, as I recall. The average person cannot survive an impact like that, being 0-level and having somewhere in the 4-9 HP area (if they're lucky.) Be naughty and let them add Strength adjustments from the speed and a lance can get awful disturbing.
This is just mildly terrifying
Oh yeah, when a Knight actually gets to do this, it is AWESOME! Unfortunately most of the time we seem to be inside of buildings or tunnels or some such, so don't get to do it nearly as often as we would like.
When we did our Greyhawk campaign with Seskis running it I will say we had a pretty even spread of encounters outside, underground, in dungeons, on ships, in glass bottled cities, elemental planes. We didn't have a knight with us very often so there was unfortunately no devastion on the outside feilds due to lances, but we did have a pretty awesome Pirate so thats why we got to spend time on the sea's and lakes.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

For those of you in my game, I've been thinking of making a few changes.

1st: I want to modify the extra attacks. I want to limit it to just warrior types and limit it to 3 total attacks for everyone, but the essential rules will stay the same.
2nd: I'm not sure how well I like my perception rules. I think there is some confusion on when a perception check should be used. It is not to replace active searching or any class skill. It is more of a tool to be used to help cover up description faults of the CK. So, I'm thinking of doing away with them and going with something that is a little more in line with attribute checks.
3rd: I'm thinking of going away from fate points and going to something more along the lines of luck points. This one is the one I think I need the most feedback on.

Let me know what you guys think.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Aramis »

Rigon wrote:For those of you in my game, I've been thinking of making a few changes.

1st: I want to modify the extra attacks. I want to limit it to just warrior types and limit it to 3 total attacks for everyone, but the essential rules will stay the same.
Have we had a lot of extra attacks? I am a fighter and I don't remember having that many.

Is your issue that it is slowing the game down, makes the fighters too tough, or what? I tend to be pretty relaxed about rules that buff up the fighters in D&D type games, especially at later levels

What I think fighters need is more of a stunt mechanic like Dungeon Crawl Classics has, but that kind of thing always bogs down the game

Rigon wrote:2nd: I'm not sure how well I like my perception rules. I think there is some confusion on when a perception check should be used. It is not to replace active searching or any class skill. It is more of a tool to be used to help cover up description faults of the CK. So, I'm thinking of doing away with them and going with something that is a little more in line with attribute checks.
This has been confusing. No one seems to know when to "search" and when to "perceive". One solution is just for the DM to take over the perception stuff. This makes sense because players may not know when to "perceive", but the character may be in a situation where he would have made a perception check. The downside is more book keeping for the already harried DM. Using wisdom for perception type rolls never made a lot of sense to me (especially as I use wisdom as more of a "mental willpower" stat) so for simplicity you might just make it an intelligence check rather than the combined stat you are using.

Rigon wrote:3rd: I'm thinking of going away from fate points and going to something more along the lines of luck points. This one is the one I think I need the most feedback on.
What do you want luck points to do? Another way of saying it is, how "cinematic" vs "realistic" do you want it? For me, luck points do two things: 1) allow the PCs to avoid an arbitrary death and 2) allow the PCs to occasionally, when they really really need it, to pull off a cool manoeuvre. The problem with 2 is the game can feel a bit superhero-ish if it is used too much. The problem with 1 is too many avoided deaths can make death lose its sting. But in a C&C world with lots of magic using monsters and non prime saves (and perhaps use of critical hits charts on the melee side), without luck points, eventually the dice are going to get you. Probably sooner rather than later.

As for a mechanic. Perhaps a set # of luck points per session or per dungeon, which can be used to either convert a "death" result to an "unconscious" result, or to add to a die roll. +1 seems a bit measly, especially at higher levels, so perhaps a +3 or even a +6. a +6 would convert a non prime to a prime roll, so would be a reasonable one time per session bump

To be honest, I don't think any of these changes are needed, as the game is working fine as it is, but those are some thoughts to get you started if you want to make some changes

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Dracyian »

Rigon wrote:3rd: I'm thinking of going away from fate points and going to something more along the lines of luck points. This one is the one I think I need the most feedback on.

Let me know what you guys think.

R-
Seskis runs Luck points as points you are awarded for his own plaesure, IDK he is the dm lol, but they can be added before you make a roll to the dice to affect the outcome, they are often saved up for save or die situations

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

Aramis wrote:
Rigon wrote:For those of you in my game, I've been thinking of making a few changes.

1st: I want to modify the extra attacks. I want to limit it to just warrior types and limit it to 3 total attacks for everyone, but the essential rules will stay the same.
Have we had a lot of extra attacks? I am a fighter and I don't remember having that many.

Is your issue that it is slowing the game down, makes the fighters too tough, or what? I tend to be pretty relaxed about rules that buff up the fighters in D&D type games, especially at later levels

What I think fighters need is more of a stunt mechanic like Dungeon Crawl Classics has, but that kind of thing always bogs down the game
This is more of a thing on my end. In pre-3.x, the most attacks a fighter could have was 3. Going by my rules now, they get 4. I just want to bring my rules closer to the pre-3.x days. That's why I originally had fractional attacks, but after playing d20 D&D, that just felt weird. This one can wait until further testing is done to see if it needs changed.
Aramis wrote:
Rigon wrote:2nd: I'm not sure how well I like my perception rules. I think there is some confusion on when a perception check should be used. It is not to replace active searching or any class skill. It is more of a tool to be used to help cover up description faults of the CK. So, I'm thinking of doing away with them and going with something that is a little more in line with attribute checks.
This has been confusing. No one seems to know when to "search" and when to "perceive". One solution is just for the DM to take over the perception stuff. This makes sense because players may not know when to "perceive", but the character may be in a situation where he would have made a perception check. The downside is more book keeping for the already harried DM. Using wisdom for perception type rolls never made a lot of sense to me (especially as I use wisdom as more of a "mental willpower" stat) so for simplicity you might just make it an intelligence check rather than the combined stat you are using.
My intention for perception was not to replace any class skills or search/spot rolls. It was mainly so clerics and druids weren't always the best at finding/seeing things per RAW. Also, I know that as a CK, my scene description are a little lacking and I wanted a mechanic that would help me out with that.
Aramis wrote:
Rigon wrote:3rd: I'm thinking of going away from fate points and going to something more along the lines of luck points. This one is the one I think I need the most feedback on.
What do you want luck points to do? Another way of saying it is, how "cinematic" vs "realistic" do you want it? For me, luck points do two things: 1) allow the PCs to avoid an arbitrary death and 2) allow the PCs to occasionally, when they really really need it, to pull off a cool manoeuvre. The problem with 2 is the game can feel a bit superhero-ish if it is used too much. The problem with 1 is too many avoided deaths can make death lose its sting. But in a C&C world with lots of magic using monsters and non prime saves (and perhaps use of critical hits charts on the melee side), without luck points, eventually the dice are going to get you. Probably sooner rather than later.

As for a mechanic. Perhaps a set # of luck points per session or per dungeon, which can be used to either convert a "death" result to an "unconscious" result, or to add to a die roll. +1 seems a bit measly, especially at higher levels, so perhaps a +3 or even a +6. a +6 would convert a non prime to a prime roll, so would be a reasonable one time per session bump
I was thinking something along the lines of how Tree does his luck points, but I'm fairly comfortable with what I have. I was just wondering how you all felt about how it worked.
Aramis wrote:To be honest, I don't think any of these changes are needed, as the game is working fine as it is, but those are some thoughts to get you started if you want to make some changes
I'm with you on this one Aramis. I was just looking for some feedback on some thoughts. If I did change any of them right now, I'd drop the perception and go with something more along the lines of "spot" checks as Wis, "search" checks as Int, and "social interactions" as Cha. As I said, I'm not looking to change anything right now, just wanted a little feedback.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Treebore »

I think Fighters should get one attack per level all the time and that the other fighter types should get one per level every round minus one. But only the PC's. NPC's by definition wear "Red Shirts" and are meant to die with ease.


Personally I am not really seeing any real problem with your House Rules, but as a player I don't pay as much attention to what is going on mechanically as compared to what I do when I run the game. So if you see things that need some tweaking, by all means do it. You can always tweak it back later if the changes end up not working as desired. After all, what I like best about C&C is how easily it can be tweaked back and forth until you have your own perfect set of rules. So if you really see a problem, change it, see if it works better. If it doesn't, change it back, or try something else.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

So, a little update on how my rules are working out. We've been playing with my house rules for 7 or 8 months now. We've gone threw most of 3 adventures (out of a planned 5). So far, I'm really happy with how the rules are working out. I've been a little more clear on when I want perception checks vs search/spot checks and that's helped out a lot on that issue. The PCs are still only around 5 level, so some of this has not become an issue. Overall, I think I've settled into a set of house rules I can live with. The only thing I've seen that may need tweaked is Ditch Medicine, as several members of the party have it. I may need to add this as a clarifier: Ditch Medicine can only be use once per day on any recipient.

What do my players have to say about how my house rules are working out. Anything that you noticed may need to be altered or fixed?

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

I added this clarifier to ditch medicine: a recipient can only benefit from one use per day

That should eliminate a single person benefiting from ditch medicine being used by multiple users.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by noratbs »

Rigon,

If your PCs reach levels covered by the CKG (13 & up), do you plan on letting them take the one-time attribute increase granted at level 15?

I'm stealing... I mean I'm adapting some of your house rules for my group. ;) I doubt we'll reach such high levels, but I want to be prepared to address the issue.

Thanks!

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

noratbs wrote:Rigon,

If your PCs reach levels covered by the CKG (13 & up), do you plan on letting them take the one-time attribute increase granted at level 15?

I'm stealing... I mean I'm adapting some of your house rules for my group. ;) I doubt we'll reach such high levels, but I want to be prepared to address the issue.

Thanks!
Not likely, as I don't plan on using any of the material for higher levels from the CKG. Besides, I already allow an Attribute increase at every 6th level now.

And "adapt" all you want. That's why I share. ;)

R-
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Captain_K
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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Captain_K »

Sorry about this, did I send a "quick reply" and not a post reply to "you" yesterday? Topic being faster group hp recovery and spell recovery? I'm new to this and I do not see "all that typing" showing up... if you can somehow turn what I fear is a reply to just "you" into a post I would appreciate not having to type it all again, thanks, Kirk
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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Captain_K »

OK, now I'm totally confused, the reply posted publically, I hope I did not loose all that typing!
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Rigon
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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Rigon »

Kirk, if you are trying to send something private to someone, you want to use the PM function, not the quick reply. That is for posting to the thread you are currently reading.

That being said, I don't see anything that you posted.

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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by alcyone »

And if you did send a PM, it would be in your Sent box in your User Control Panel under Private Messages, so you could copy it out of there.
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Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Post by Captain_K »

At this point I'm going with "I think I rolled a 1 when trying to hit the submit button"... well, I'll take a stab at resubmitting... drat!

What is the "rule" on quasi-PC profanity? Like Damn
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