Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Just Jeff
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

Post by Just Jeff »

I made the mistake of including an NPC illusionist in the game I'm currently running, and I'm still getting a feel for how to handle illusions. I do have a problem with Silent Image causing damage via illusionary sword or fire or what have you. Even when giving illusions the power to cause real damage, how is a sword you cannot hear coming at you or feel hitting you going to hurt you?

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Dracyian
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Just Jeff wrote:I made the mistake of including an NPC illusionist in the game I'm currently running, and I'm still getting a feel for how to handle illusions. I do have a problem with Silent Image causing damage via illusionary sword or fire or what have you. Even when giving illusions the power to cause real damage, how is a sword you cannot hear coming at you or feel hitting you going to hurt you?
The same way a sugar pill gets rid of a head ache or can help in the treatment of sickness and diseases.

What I think the real issue for a lot of us is putting real world limitations on a magical realm existing in fiction. IMO if we were existing in a world where a mind could be used as a tool to conjure fire up from somewhere else and shoot it as a huge ball at some one else why can't a mind freaking out cause damage upon one's self

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Just Jeff wrote:I made the mistake of including an NPC illusionist in the game I'm currently running, and I'm still getting a feel for how to handle illusions. I do have a problem with Silent Image causing damage via illusionary sword or fire or what have you. Even when giving illusions the power to cause real damage, how is a sword you cannot hear coming at you or feel hitting you going to hurt you?

As per the CKG, it is because the magic used to create an illusion is as real as the magic used by a wizard to cast something like a fireball. It isn't the power of the character "believing" or disbelieving an illusion that is in play, it is the power of the illusion spell acting through the mind of the person that can cause damage. REAL damage. Hence, you cannot "disbelieve" illusions in C&C. You either make you save vs. the magic power or, you don't.
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Just Jeff
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

Post by Just Jeff »

Dracyian wrote:
Just Jeff wrote:I made the mistake of including an NPC illusionist in the game I'm currently running, and I'm still getting a feel for how to handle illusions. I do have a problem with Silent Image causing damage via illusionary sword or fire or what have you. Even when giving illusions the power to cause real damage, how is a sword you cannot hear coming at you or feel hitting you going to hurt you?
The same way a sugar pill gets rid of a head ache or can help in the treatment of sickness and diseases.
You can feel a sugar pill as you pop it in your mouth and swallow.
Arduin wrote:As per the CKG, it is because the magic used to create an illusion is as real as the magic used by a wizard to cast something like a fireball. It isn't the power of the character "believing" or disbelieving an illusion that is in play, it is the power of the illusion spell acting through the mind of the person that can cause damage. REAL damage.
Which is how I handle most of the illusion spells. However, I balk at this when it comes to the generic illusion spells. Otherwise what's the difference between a visual-only fireball and one that hits all the senses? And attributing physical damage to an illusion that has no tactile element is a huge stumbling block for me.

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Just Jeff wrote: Which is how I handle most of the illusion spells. However, I balk at this when it comes to the generic illusion spells. Otherwise what's the difference between a visual-only fireball and one that hits all the senses? And attributing physical damage to an illusion that has no tactile element is a huge stumbling block for me.
Right, power is spell level dependent too.
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dunbruha
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?
No it stays for those who failed a saving throw.
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

Post by dunbruha »

Arduin wrote:
The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?
No it stays for those who failed a saving throw.
Is that how you play it at your table? Because it seems to me that it can be interpreted either way.

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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dunbruha wrote:
Arduin wrote:
The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?
No it stays for those who failed a saving throw.
Is that how you play it at your table? Because it seems to me that it can be interpreted either way.
In C&C, if a person doesn't save vs. the illusion, it affects them. There is no "group saving throw" allowed vs. illusion in general. Not per 5th PHB anyways.
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dunbruha
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Arduin wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
Arduin wrote:
The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?
No it stays for those who failed a saving throw.
Is that how you play it at your table? Because it seems to me that it can be interpreted either way.
In C&C, if a person doesn't save vs. the illusion, it affects them. There is no "group saving throw" allowed vs. illusion in general. Not per 5th PHB anyways.
A "group saving throw" is not necessary. If one opponent (either alone, or of many) makes the save, then the illusion disappears (according to the spell as written). It doesn't say "disappears to the person who makes the save".

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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dunbruha wrote:
Arduin wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
Arduin wrote:
The Silent Image spell description states that "The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw." What happens if there are multiple opponents? If one makes the save, does the illusion disappear for all of them?
No it stays for those who failed a saving throw.
Is that how you play it at your table? Because it seems to me that it can be interpreted either way.
In C&C, if a person doesn't save vs. the illusion, it affects them. There is no "group saving throw" allowed vs. illusion in general. Not per 5th PHB anyways.
A "group saving throw" is not necessary. If one opponent (either alone, or of many) makes the save, then the illusion disappears (according to the spell as written). It doesn't say "disappears to the person who makes the save".
I can see how you reached that interpretation based on the precise language of the text, but I also think it is pretty clear that that was not the intent of the authors.
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dunbruha
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Buttmonkey wrote:I can see how you reached that interpretation based on the precise language of the text, but I also think it is pretty clear that that was not the intent of the authors.
Heh. Partly playing devil's advocate here... but it underscores the problems I have with the various "xxx Image" spells as listed in the 5th printing rules. The CKG goes on about how "believing" is not involved in illusions, but every Image spell says that the image disappears if an opponent disbelieves. So if believing isn't involved, then the spell must be "real". How can something be "real" to one person and not to another? (I know, I know... magic). It seems very shaky to me, this whole idea that Image illusions can cause someone who "believes" that he has wings to actually fly.

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Arduin
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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dunbruha wrote: A "group saving throw" is not necessary. If one opponent (either alone, or of many)
Yes, it is. Also, It doesn't state, "either alone, or of many". Adding words in is called a "house rule". :roll:

See rest of illusion magic description in PHB and all sections of saving throws vs. spells.

You are also incorrect in thinking that every image spell disappears if someone decides to disbelieving it. Most require a successful save to disbelieve. Read every spell description in the category...
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dunbruha
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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Arduin wrote:
dunbruha wrote: A "group saving throw" is not necessary. If one opponent (either alone, or of many)
Yes, it is. Also, It doesn't state, "either alone, or of many". Adding words in is called a "house rule". :roll:
Nope. Not a house rule. Just one possible way of interpreting the sentence (I added those words to make my interpretation clearer.) :roll:
Arduin wrote:See rest of illusion magic description in PHB and all sections of saving throws vs. spells.

You are also incorrect in thinking that every image spell disappears if someone decides to disbelieving it. Most require a successful save to disbelieve. Read every spell description in the category...
I have read and re-read that section in the CKG many times... :roll:

You must have ESP to know what I think. If you carefully read my posts, I do not say anything about "deciding to disbelieve". :roll:

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Re: Illutionist spell : Silent image

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Treebore wrote:Pretty sure it is "stress", not "shock".
In modern jargon it is called post-traumatic stress disorder. WWI times it was called shell shock. So, in this case stress and shock are interchangeable.

I also revel with the in game narrative. If, let's say only one of four characters are subjective to the illusion that one character reacts to the illusion and from the outside looking in that one person appears to have lost their marbles. If he is fighting an imaginary foe the others can't do much except observe "the crazy" or worse restrain their compatriot giving the illusion free hits. If lets's say, it is a hole or a bridge the others observe the character just collapsing as though they fell down a large hole or stumble off a cliff for no apparent reason.

Of course the non-affected can help per situation in breaking the spell. Such as the bridge. Someone could've "caught" the character from plunging over a cliff and once it was determined that the afflicted character is seeing a bridge another could disprove the bridge by throwing something- over the side- proving the bridge doesn't exist thus breaking the spells effect.

This is one of those cases that I think the Chivalry & Sorcery rpg handled illusions better. In Chivalry & Sorcery you could spend "spell points" to add other senses to the illusion making the spell more costly but a much better illusion.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson

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