Players Handbook Six

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by alcyone »

Evade/Dodge are often confusing to new players. A chart that had each maneuver and when in a round it could be performed might fix a lot of issues with understanding it.

TROLL: ADDED this sentence to both: They do not need to roll initiative, but must announce their intention before the round begins.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by alcyone »

A diagram for flank/rear attack would help people understand what a flank is in C&C.

TROLL: This is explained in the text. A diagram may serve to limit the CK's ability to adjust this on the fly.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by alcyone »

Ranged shot decay is strange.

- Is the penalty against the original roll or a new roll for each person in the missile's path?
- If it's the original roll, it can only hit people with a lower AC than the target.
- In either case, the better archer you are, the more likely you are to hit something else if you miss, even your friends.

TROLL: AMENDED WITH THE FOLLOWING SENTENCE:For each ten feet traveled within close range, the archer should roll a to hit roll again, but the attacker accrues a -1 penalty for every 10 feet beyond the original target.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by alcyone »

Charge AC:

It's -4 to AC for the round if you charge. Does this mean if you charge last in the round, you don't have a penalty (you want to roll badly on initiative if you charge.) Can you delay your charge to make this work for you?

More generally:
- Can you delay an action
- Besides CT 1+ spells, does anything ever carry over to the next round.

TROLL: You have to announce before moving and initiative. Text is amended.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Lord Dynel »

Set a definitive initiative process. Either:

a) roll initiative, then players declare their actions on their turn, or

b) declare actions, then players roll initiative.

I personally feel that C&C plays better with the latter but that's my opinion. A definitive method would be a good thing (I feel there's enough latitude to suggest there isn't a set way to do it).

TROLL: We always defer to latitude at the table, allowing on the spot changes by the CK. Some actions...evade and dodge...do not require an initiative roll. We clarified that text.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Snoring Rock »

Place character classes in alphabetic order

TROLL: CORRECTED.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by FXR1979 »

Here are two:

- Explain the mechanical difference between jogging and running. If there aren't any, do not use both words, as it leads to confusion.

- Make a decent and relevant weapon and armor list, with explanations as possible and less D&D-isms. Nobody knows what a bastard sword is and nobody care about tons of polearms which no character will ever use. If possible, try to avoid having a certain weapon simply better than the others. Also, no character in my fantasy word knows what a polish hussar is. To this day, I'm still not sure what type of armor it is supposed to be.

- Explain, if any, the link between encumbrance and gold pieces. What's the EV of a hundred gold pieces?

TROLL LORD: As trav noted, this is explained in the 5th printing, but I'll take a second look at it.

Also, here are two of my ideas for improving the game :

- Diminish the XP requirements for leveling-up. The days of decade-long campaigns are over for most players and faster character improvement is required.

- Use the mechanic set out in Amazing Adventure: a single TN (15) and a bonus of +3 for prime attributes.

TROLL: These change would alter the game.

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Peter
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Peter »

Move some stuff out of the CKG into the PHB: Secondary skills, expanded attribute table (and modify to include effects for low abilities), starting race ages, and expanded class abilities and tables.

TROLL: These are too restrictive and interfere with house rules.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by tylermo »

Probably should wait until I have the books in front of me, but there seems to be some descrepencies between the racial age tables in the phb and ckg. Even if you leave the racial variants exclusively in the ckg, the ages for the primary races should match up between both books. (in some cases I believe they do).

TROLL: This is an edit for the CKG.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by tylermo »

This isn't a fix for a problem, but a suggestion. Maybe move the added combat maneuvers (called shot, push, etc.) from the ckg into the phb? Possibly consider including the reload times for heavy crossbows, etc. in the phb as well.

TROLL: THESE ARE IN THE CKG.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by tylermo »

A veteran gamer (over 30 years) friend of mine pointed this out. The explanation of how to use the Siege Engine on pg. 123? could use some clarification.

TROLL: Hmmmm.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by seskis281 »

1. Place classes and races in alphabetical order for quicker reference.

TROLL: CORRECTED.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by seskis281 »

2. What Tyler said - bring a better up-front introduction and description of the core Siege mechanic. I don't want a chart either, but whereas I intuitively know that CL can be negative as well as positive, and I get how I will have to calculate CLs as CK, I think this is the crux of difficulty for new players or those used to very specified rules formats like Pathfinder and 4e.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by commanderFuron »

Include the expanded attribute table from the CKG and the expanded level sections for the characters. It is much easier to look it up in one place, and when you are making high level NPCs for an adventure it is also much easier for the CK.

TROLL: This impacts house rules.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by dachda »

Material components for many spells are missing. Correcting is necessary for a complete Handbook. Some examples are: Protection from Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law; Haste; Hold Person; Fire Shield; Hold Monster

TROLL: MATERIAL COMPONENTS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO ALL SPELLS. THEY ARE PLACED IN THEIR OWN PARAGRAPH AT THE END OF THE SPELL ENTRY.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Lord Dynel »

Aergraith wrote:Disengage/hasty disengage (p.132) ought to have an example; it's complex enough that I never see anyone use it as written. It's already as (un)clear as withdrawal and retreat in AD&D and Classic D&D, but C&C could do better.

Particularly in "they can also opt to follow those...". When? If on their turn, they could have anyway.
Agreed. I've never been particularly fond of the "hasty" disengaging rules. What's the difference between a hasty disengage and simply moving away from an opponent? I'm allowed to move at maximum running distance anyway, can I not? According to the page 129 (5th printing) I can. Is a "run" action from combat always considered a hasty disengage? And as far as a fighting disengage goes, I can move only one-half my movement, but since a foe can move half their move and attack, I'm only at an advantage if I have an overall better speed than my opponent. Is that correct?

Suggestion:
Fighting Disengage: move 1/2 movement, backing away from foe (but still facing him). If the foe follows, then the disengaging combatant may get an attack on the perusing foe on that perusing foe's initiative, when the perusing foe enters the disengaging combatant's reach.

Hasty Disengage: turn and flee up to maximum running (x4) speed. Shield bonuses do not apply in a hasty disengage, and opponents get a +2 to attack the hasty disengaging combatant. Additionally, any foe who was in reach at the start of the disengage may get a free, immediate attack on the disengaging combatant (with the +2 bonus). Thieves may back attack the disengaging combatant.

A PC may disengage from combat as long as he or she has not acted yet in the round.

When retreating from a foe, a player MUST declare which type of disengaging maneuver he/she is taking, unless the CK deems it unnecessary.
I added that last line in there in case a CK feels that neither is necessary (a PC should be able to just "walk away" from a paralyzed foe, for instance).

Sorry, Steve...you probably weren't looking for rules submissions. Sometimes, if I complain about something, I feel like I should suggest a solution! :D

TROLL:Disengaging from combat is a dangerous maneuver since it exposes the character to attacks, but it automatically puts distance between the disengaging party and their opponent. The player must announce that he is disengaging at the beginning of the round. The disengaging character does not roll initiative. If disengaging a character can take no other action. The character is allowed a movement as defined below. Player characters, monsters and non-player characters can disengage from combat.

Hasty Disengagement: is one in which the character or monster attempts to leave combat and expends all effort to do so. A character disengaging hastily may move as far as possible up to their maximum running distance, but they suffer a -2 to armor class and their opponent gets an attack against them as they run away. This is a free attack and does not count against the opponent’s other action in the round, although the opponent may not make a second attack against the fleeing character. The armor class adjustment lasts throughout the combat round and applies to every attack against the fleeing character.

Fighting Disengagement: is a more carefully executed withdrawal from combat. By performing a fighting disengagement, the character moves one-half their movement rate or less away from their opponent and they can disengage from combat. The character suffers no penalty to armor class, but they cannot take any other action in the round.

In the round following the disengagement the character or monster has put distance between theirselves and their opponent.
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Eisenmann
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Eisenmann »

If possible, I'd love to see a 'Weight and Movement' chart for indoor, underground, city, and cross country movement.

TROLL: This belongs in the CKG.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Snoring Rock »

Weapons list:

Bec De Corbin has a +2 vs. chain, plate and scale armor. Is this really the only weapon in its class that should have this bonus? I think it should be reviewed. There are other "like" weapons on the list.

Main Gouch gives +1 to AC or can be used in a round to attack. Is this the only weapon in its class that can used in such a way. I think this should be reviewed as well.

TROLL: These weapons are open to so much broad interpretation as to what they did and how they were used that I'm surprised those bonuses are in there at all. I'm not going to change it, but I'm not going to add any more. Would love to do a full arms and armor book with all kinds of detail. IN fact Mark started one years ago but its joined Mac's orc book in the heap of unfinished troll projects hahaah

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Snoring Rock »

Grapple, Overbear, and well all of them in the back, could use a little love and better description. I tiny chart listing the bonus/add-on's for defender vs. attacker? But theses would be used more if it was just more clear.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by jdizzy001 »

Is it possible to retool the fighter's combat dominance? something like combat dominance is usable on critters who have HD up to one half the fighter's level.

Also the barbarian's whirlwind atk. perhaps allowing it's use a number of times per day = the PC's con modifier + 1.

Another thought that occured to me which i'd like to share, is the illusionists ability to heal. to further emphasize the "illusion" of health, perhaps instead of recovering hp contingient upon a failed INT save, the player may forgo the save and be awarded temporary hp instead of legit hp. after all, the illusionists power to heal is only perceived and is not "actual" healing like a cleric.

TROLL: Fighter and barbarian remain the same. We've added some CKG explanation for the Illusionary magic from the CKG in the PH.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by jdizzy001 »

Explanation of the Knight's weapon training skill would also be appreciated.

On a side note, I'm glad to see that the troll lord's really care about the quality of their game. So much so that they seek the input from the players. 2 thumbs up troll lords.

TROLL: Weapon Training was removed.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by shadow »

I don't want to see a huge amount of rule changes. If certain rules need to be clarified, then I'm all for it, but I don't want to see major differences in the way classes and races play.

That said, some things that I would like to see:

1. More spells for the Wizard and Illusionist - There are quite a few spells from the 1e and 2e AD&D that haven't been converted to C&C.

2. Better explanation of weapons and armor - Some of the explanations seemed a little hard to understand. For example if AC is generic, why are helms listed separately?

3. An Optional Psionics System (With the emphasis on Optional) - This probably won't happen since psionics have always been controversial and a psionics system will take up a lot of space, but I can dream.

TROLL: 1. There are more spells coming out in supplements. No room here. 2. This has been fixed. 3. Psionics must be in another pub.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by JediOre »

The various Prismatic magic-user spells need to have the colors connected to the type of damage inflicted, i.e. red = flame, green = poison and so forth. Somehow these got dropped.

TROLL: This is one of those things we intentionally leave to the CK/Player. It allows them to flesh out their game however they see fit.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Litzen Tallister »

While sorta breaking the one spell per post rule, in my own defense it's a few spells in a row that contain the same concern for me: Wall of Ice, Wall of Iron, and Wall of Stone all provide for the opportunity to use the spells horizontally, which I see being used as a means of bridging gaps over which the PCs could travel. However, none of these spells offer any guidelines on how much weight they could sustain. While it would probably be too much detail to go into as to how much weight per person up to a certain total, a general rule of 'the wall can support X numbers of pounds per inch of thickness' would be helpful for the three mentioned spells.

TROLL: Reviewed each spell, to cast them yo have to be 8 or 9+ level, and they are inches thick for every 4 levels...or in the case of ice 1 inch thick per level...chances of them breaking are negligible.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Rigon »

The barbarian's deerstalker ability needs to be linked to an attribute.

R-

TROLL: This is a skill that does not require a check.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by dunbruha »

Not sure if this has already been mentioned...

In the Class And A Half rules on p142, Quick Rule 4 says:
Wizard or illusionist supported by an armor proficient class may cast spells while armored, however, any spells which allow a save are granted a bonus to the save equal to the base AC bonus of the spell-caster’s armor. This principal also applies to druids who wear metal armor.

Wizard or illusionist supporting an armor proficient class cannot cast spells which directly cause damage, or allow a save, while wearing armor. This principal applies to druids wearing metal armor.
These seem contradictory to me--the second one says that, while wearing armor, spells cannot be cast that allow a save, but the first one says that they can be cast (but a bonus is allowed to the save).

Which is correct?

TROLL: CHANGED second entry to the following: "An armor proficient class supported by a wizard or illusionist class cannot cast spells while armored, allow a save or cause damage."

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by dunbruha »

It might be useful to think about clarifying the wording of the racial attribute modifiers. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13807

TROLL: TEXT replaced with the following: This refers to a bonus or penalty to the base attribute score for all members of a given race.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by dunbruha »

Encumbrance Score vs Encumbrance Rating: same thing?

On page 47, the first paragraph of the "Determining Encumbrance" section refers to the Encumbrance Score, but the next paragraph (and the table that follows) refers to Encumbrance Rating. I am assuming these are the same thing... if so, there should be a consistent name.

TROLL: CORRECTED.

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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by Captain_K »

1) This is my first post ever, sorry if it is poor.
2) My PH is (C) 2007, I do not see which printing - as you move to 6th printing (and ref which printing for these forum), you might want "printing" obvious near the copy write. So my comments below stem from that PH edition/printing, sorry if they are old news or already corrected. Also I started playing DnD in 1979 so I'm kind of OLD (about this stuff). By the way, nice job with CC, keep at it.

Q1: Gnomes in M&T (aka MM) get "pass w/o trace", but not in PH. Error? Adds to a Gnome PC, might be good. Gnome M&T image is a "fat pig" but PC appears to be a long eared dog thing. Consistent?

Q2: Languages for PCs. "Common" all get, non-humans have racial and common. Then a high intelligence is required for any more (then only 1-3). In diverse and small countries in Europe bi- or tri lingual is very common for all people. I know of many with 4-8 languages. Suggest Rules or notes clarify and allow all at least 2 languages min (if their PC back story supports), with INT bonus be starting languages the PC can pick with little back story needed. Then more languages can be gained in play if PC and CK work it in, with game gained languages NOT being limited by INT. A diverse party would not be able to truly speak together, ever, in anything but "common". Sorry, the idea of a GLOBAL "common" just seems a gross over simplification.

Q3: Poison seems to mix terms a bit. 6 (VI) types that later in table are called "NAME". To "make a poison" requires an INT check with cumulative penalties in () which are not obvious. Finally, traps have a challenge level (CL) by the level of the Thief that "created" (set) them, is the poison CL by the Poison Type Level (I to VI) or by the Assassin that created the poison?

Suggestion for Bard: Gain a language, spoken or written, every even level (2nd, 4th, 6th , etc.). If the Bard wants spoken AND written fluency, then it must be taken twice. Ex - Dead languages may only have written records needed for old histories/research/LORE, the perfect stuff for a Bard to know and many racial languages may have no writing system. Yes, this is very 1st Ed DnD Bard (p 118 Table II), but it adds a nice flavor for Bards.

Big/odd suggestion for Bard: Gain Druid Spells as a Druid of 1/2 the level of the Bard, no spells until 2nd lvl. Bards must have a Verbal component. Follow casting in armor rules like the "Druid" is the 1/2 class of Class and a Half. Bard must be affiliated with a Druid Sect - a great historic tie. Bards learn each spell uniquely. They are not true Druids. They only know enough spells to fill out their allowed spells per day. Learning new spells only at new caster levels or to replace an existing spell with a new one. All gained in game play. Tie in their "decipher script" ability to their ability to and methods of learning a new spell would be interesting. If you like the idea, it can be even more eclectic by saying the BARD picks up spells to cast like their chance to "decipher script" scroll use too. So if they "decipher script" an archaic spell off a scroll they can then add it to their spell casting list. This would be true for Wizard, Illusionist and Druid scrolls.. now this Bard would really have an odd array of unique spells (and again be similar to old DnD PH Bards) - add in class and a half with a thief and you got it totally.

Thanks for your patience, Kirk

TROLL: Q1: Monsters and player Races are purposely different. And I love the fat pig!!! hahaah

Q2: The base line of C&C is Gross Simplification. We leave languages to the setting, the gamer, the CKG.

Q3: I think your in an older printing.

On your other comments, we keep the classes separate, unless you want to go Class in a Half or multi classing.
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Re: Players Handbook Six

Post by kreider204 »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Kirk_O wrote:2) My PH is (C) 2007, I do not see which printing - as you move to 6th printing (and ref which printing for these forum), you might want "printing" obvious near the copy write.
The printing number is on the cover. If you look at the spine, you will see a 5 (I believe it's five) digit number at the bottom. The last digit tells you the number of the printing. So, if the number ends in a "3", you are looking at a 3rd printing.
I was also going to point out that it's listed in the copyright section, after the OGL - but I notice they never updated the 5th printing (it still says 4th printing, at least on my PDF).

TROLL: PRINTING NUMBER UPDATED.

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