Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Fizz wrote:
post script: as a warning against changing rules, during the course of this conversation, i ran out of dishwasher soap, and instead put dish soap in the dishwasher. i would not recommend this, my dishwasher exploded suds from every pore.
LOL! I have been there myself, my friend. :)

-Fizz
LOL

Yeah, I have to fix that before the sun comes up or the wife is going to wake me up at 7 in the a.m!

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by jdizzy001 »

Troll Lord wrote:
But when I play fighters, which I always do, I vary them greatly with equipment and role playing, background. The lack of abilities is of no concern.
/Offers fighter secret handshake.

I always play fighters too. Every ... Single ... Time. Fighters forever.

After reading the thread, and referring to the ranger issue, would it be feasible to allow the ranger to use his WIS based ability without a check except under very taxing circumstances (like his scale ability)? This falls in line with many other class specific abilities, and prevents having to make a "rule change."
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

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And on that note i'll recommence tomorrow. I had no idea it was 1 in the A.M.

:D

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

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jdizzy001 wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
But when I play fighters, which I always do, I vary them greatly with equipment and role playing, background. The lack of abilities is of no concern.
/Offers fighter secret handshake.

I always play fighters too. Every ... Single ... Time. Fighters forever.

After reading the thread, and referring to the ranger issue, would it be feasible to allow the ranger to use his WIS based ability without a check except under very taxing circumstances (like his scale ability)? This falls in line with many other class specific abilities, and prevents having to make a "rule change."
LOL yeah, my response to mac last night was at first "I don't care, it doesn't affect the fighter!" :D Of course I was only being sarcastic…well a little sarcastic. hahah

I think that gets into a whole other can of worms. Why does the monk have 437 abilities abut require not one ability check to do them. But the ranger has 300 abilities but requires checks on almost all of them.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Fizz »

Troll Lord wrote:To play a little more of the devil's advocate. There can be a variety of types of rangers because the abilities require different attributes, but the knight does not have that benefit. They are all cookie cutter, one knight no different than the next? So why is it important the ranger have this 'restriction' (its not a restriction, I just can't think of a better word) but not the knight.
Well, i don't think this 'restriction' is a bad thing. Some classes just seem to have broader scopes (broader archetypes?) than others, but for different reasons. Rangers are diverse because of their skills set. Whereas wizards and clerics are potentially the most diverse due to spell selection. Conversely, fighters and knights and monks aren't very diverse- the only selection they get is weapon.

For such classes, the non-class primes become even more important for differentiation. If one thought this needed fixing (i'm not committing either way), maybe the knight's abilities could be reworked to be more stat based (so the actual Charisma score matters more). Or maybe horsemanship could be broken out into separate differently-based skills. <shrug>

-Fizz

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by alcyone »

If I am reading correctly (I'm certain you'll correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't sound like Steve and Tree's suggestions are the same:

Stephen's Way: Use class prime for all class ability. (Rogue would use Dexterity for Decipher Script)

Tree's Way: Temporarily promote the existing class skill's ability to a prime. (Rogue would use Intelligence to Decipher Script, but would treat Intelligence as a prime for that roll)

Stephen's way favors the player more if they (as players usually but don't always do) put the best ability score on their class prime.
Tree's way allows the variation in ability scores to remain important. It also is less jarring in terms of names for things, you don't then need to explain how the rogue is dexterously deciphering the script.

I prefer Tree's way. If you are going to change the rules, I say change to that. This really sounds like the type of variant rule that would better go in CKG or a companion supplement (Unearthed Arcana, Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space, Top Secret Companion, for example).

If you put either rule in the 6th printing, I'll still buy it and probably use the rule.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Eisenmann »

I'm still working my way through the thread(s), but I just wanted to chime in real quick to say that if this line of thought does show up in the PH6 then I'll be buying it for sure.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Arduin »

Troll Lord wrote:
This does away with the archetype concept upon which the classes are based and leads to why not have an Elf Figher who can sneak up and backstab?

Steve
Not at all. I never said give non-class abilities. Simply messing with primes. A fencer type fighter will NOT have Str as a prime. Dex & Con would be in the forefront. Followed by Int. Having a fighter that leans on Dex more does NOT mess with what the classes are based. A person will still want a str up there but it doesn't matter about lifting tree trunks. (Str check).
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Julian Grimm »

Troll Lord wrote:
Julian Grimm wrote:As far as spot, search and similar checks I have added in a sub-ability called perception. Perception is the average of the Wisdom and Intelligence bonuses and is used for the basic 'spot checks'. Classes like the Rogue get a +2 to spot checks and races that would get bonuses such as enhances senses gain a +1 to perception. The bonus increases at +1 per every three levels of the character.

So far it has worked well and we have enjoyed the simplicity of the idea.
We've thought of this, but this always seems to lead into ever more and more attributes and checks. If that makes sense?

That said spotting and listening are the single two most used rolls at my table. More so than combat. I look…I listen…can I see…what do I see…etc

Steve

It makes sense. However, I am not one to overuse checks so there is no more rolls than if you were using wisdom for the check. The only issue was how high the bonuses would get which is why Perception improves a +1 per three levels. For the most part I roll the checks for the players especially when it comes to secret doors and seeing hidden monsters. Even then I typically decide on whether or not they would see it and only roll when it is critical to the adventure or I am not sure if they would have seen it.

However, I do know that there will be CKs who will require a roll for every little thing and I can see how the idea would be abused.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by tylermo »

I visit my girlfriend yesterday and miss one day visiting the forums, and Stephen gets all talky??? I got nothin' at this point except to ask, "Stephen, how do you want me to run the game at Game Day in Springfield?" haha

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Buttmonkey »

Troll Lord wrote:
Omote wrote:
Fizz wrote:I hate the notion of treating all class abilities as prime. That makes every member of one class the same as any other member of the same class. That's boring. I like that rangers have to choose Dexterity or Wisdom: that's two different types of characters in one (stealthy hunter vs wise guru). Why must a class be awesome at everything?
Hate would be the word I would use to. I share Fizz's thought process exactly. Now is not the time to change this mechanic. If TLG goes to a full-on 2nd edition, then so be it. Not here. Not now.

~O
To be very, very clear. Mac isn't proposing that "all class abilities as prime." What he's put on the table is that those abilities that require an attribute check, that attribute is now their Prime Attribute.

As noted most classes would be wholly unaffected by this, as their class abilities don't require any kind of check.

Steve
I really dislike this idea. If you're going to meddle with things, just say all class abilities are checked as if they were tied to an attribute that is prime regardless of whether it is actually prime. That makes a lot more sense to me than suddenly having class ability checks tied to attributes that bear no relationship to the class ability.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by koralas »

Troll Lord wrote:
koralas wrote:Steve, I think a you are on the right track; however, rather than make class abilities based on their Prime, simply make class abilities and prime attribute checks a Challenge Base of 12 (or +6, which ever you prefer). That way you will always excel at what your class is supposed to, but there is still room for differences based on the attribute bonuses the character may have. You could also grant a small, +1 or +2, bonus if the class skill attribute requirement is also prime, though this could be a bit much and would need testing.
That's exactly what we are proposing. Every class ability becomes a prime, based on that class' Prime Attribute.

Steve
No what I meant is leave the abilities tied to their current attributes, thus different rangers will have different ability score bonuses for those attributes that are high. So Tracking is still Wisdom, Move Silently still Dexterity, but since they are class skills, they are both still considered prime even though the Ranger has Strength and Dexterity as primes. That is where giving an additional +1 or +2 if the attribute is prime comes in. So if the Ranger has Dex as a Prime, then the Move Silently gets the bonus.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

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Aergraith wrote:If I am reading correctly (I'm certain you'll correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't sound like Steve and Tree's suggestions are the same:

Stephen's Way: Use class prime for all class ability. (Rogue would use Dexterity for Decipher Script)

Tree's Way: Temporarily promote the existing class skill's ability to a prime. (Rogue would use Intelligence to Decipher Script, but would treat Intelligence as a prime for that roll)

Stephen's way favors the player more if they (as players usually but don't always do) put the best ability score on their class prime.
Tree's way allows the variation in ability scores to remain important. It also is less jarring in terms of names for things, you don't then need to explain how the rogue is dexterously deciphering the script.

I prefer Tree's way. If you are going to change the rules, I say change to that. This really sounds like the type of variant rule that would better go in CKG or a companion supplement (Unearthed Arcana, Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space, Top Secret Companion, for example).

If you put either rule in the 6th printing, I'll still buy it and probably use the rule.
I couldn't agree more with this post. The Tree way is better and it should be offered as an optional rule rather than a permanent change to the RAW. That would border on a new edition, which would be a Bad Thing (TM). I can't imagine the unholy shit storm that would rain down from all of the haters in the RPG universe if TLG formally reneged on its "no new editions" pledge. It was bad enough listening to people bitch unendingly while waiting for the CKG to come out. The especially annoying part is I suspect the vast majority of the bitchers and whiners don't actually play C&C, they just like to criticize loudly and publicly. If it weren't for the no new editions pledge, I'd say just slap a second edition logo on the cover and do it Tree's way. I think the Tree approach makes more sense than the current rule. With the changes to the barbarian and illusionist, we might as well admit we're working with a second edition anyway.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Eisenmann »

It would take way more than that to make a second edition.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by tylermo »

I really have nothing to offer. I have to admit (like many others), I have occasionally pondered why the ranger's prime is strength when so many of the class abilities are linked to other attributes. I can also see where there might be problems with wisdom/spot. Maybe some new methods or variant rules could be added to the ckg? Then again, that book is clocking in at a hefty page count, and there's that 16 page rule to consider. I just think it would better in some other book than the phb. Some of us might be very forgiving when it comes to a perceived "2nd edition", but others might not. I'm glad I'm not the one having to make this decision. lol. I have to wonder how much closer we are to the end of the run for the 5th printing. Seems like there's a lot to do, what with clarifications and items to consider from the phb thread. Would hate for 5th to run out long before 6th is available. Con season is soon upon us, my friend. :)

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Aramis »

I come to this thread late, but saw it related to my post in the "Spot" thread.

I find it interesting that the makers of the game are grappling with and coming up with creative solutions to the same issues that still bedevil our local games.

As stated in the other thread, I am a big believer in a stronger class emphasis, weaker primes emphasis. I find that the primes have such a large bonus (+6) that in the low to mid level games I play, they distort the kinds of outcomes I came to expect from my AD&D days.

One solution is to partially decouple primes from attribute. If you drop the 12/18 mechanic and just make the TN a straight 18, you can then have attribute primes give a +3 and a potential class bonus to checks of an additional +3. So a DEX prime rogue notices no change to sneaking, but now his lack of an INT prime still allows a reasonable bonus to decipher script (P.S.- decipher script should be changed to allow them to cast the arcane spell from the scroll if the check is made). Saves would still be a straight +6 from attribute primes

Such a system would become a bit more fiddly (have to track two different bonuses) which I generally oppose but might "split the difference". I think such a change might keep things closer to the original system

If you are going with a more substantial change, then I prefer Treebore's method to the one originally proposed here. The idea that classes are competent (i.e. prime) in their areas of expertise makes sense to me, but having the ranger not only get the (STR) prime bonus but his (potentially) +3 stat bonus as well on something like Track seems to stretch realism a bit too far. Simply allowing him to use his wisdom stat, but treat it as prime makes more sense

I play in Treebore's games and his system works perfectly fine from my perspective. It does make PCs much more competent, and would disproportionately benefit skill monkey types (e.g. Rangers and Rogues) but neither is a detriment in my opinion. To worry about the slight "munchkinism" of this skills boost and be fine with the huge munchkin boost spellcasters enjoy in C&C relative to AD&D because of the primes and how difficult non prime saves are to make, seems to be a trifle overstated.

Additionally, the fear of "cookie cutter" characters is also overstated. How different is a CON prime wizard from a STR prime wizard in day to day play? How novel is an DEX prime fighter, really? He should be doing all kinds of cool swashbuckling moves and avoiding damage while wearing nothing but a puffy shirt but mechanically, is he? A better solution to the sameness of classes would be to actually design some alternative classes from each base, such as a STR prime rogue (Bravo) or a DEX prime warrior (swashbuckler) etc.

A greater emphasis on the class archetypes, and a view of characters as competent within their sphere is all to the good from my perspective

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Fizz »

Aramis wrote:Additionally, the fear of "cookie cutter" characters is also overstated. How different is a CON prime wizard from a STR prime wizard in day to day play? How novel is an INT prime fighter, really? He should be doing all kinds of cool swashbuckling moves and avoiding damage while wearing nothing but a puffy shirt but mechanically, is he? A better solution to the sameness of classes would be to actually design some alternative classes from each base, such as a STR prime rogue (Bravo) or a DEX prime warrior (swashbuckler) etc.

A greater emphasis on the class archetypes, and a view of characters as competent within their sphere is all to the good from my perspective
I'm not one to shy away from new classes- i've experimented with many new ones and modifying existing ones. But creating a new class does take time. Primes make variations of a class very easy.

If you think that a new class is a solution to create a Bravo or Swashbuckler, or anything else, that's fine. But then i don't see any reason to have primes. Your classes are good at their archetypal chores, and poor at everything else.

What i hear you saying is that primes are useless outside of class abilities (your statement: "How different is a CON prime wizard from a STR prime wizard in day to day play?"). If Primes are inextricably tied to class abilities, then it's not really it's own mechanic- it's part of the class. So why even have them? Forget primes altogether and make the base CC of every check a 12.

I always felt the main reason for having the Prime mechanic was to allow for more character types- to create a character that is a bit different from the norm. You can still have your iconic archetypes if you so choose, but it doesn't limit the player to that.

If primes were meant to be solely for the benefit of the class, then it would have been worked into the class abilities already. But since all characters get to freely pick at least one prime, i think the intent is to have greater flexibility, to define your character in new and different ways.


-Fizz

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Treebore »

What is it called? The C&C Companion? IE the free PDF download the Trolls eventually hosted. It has tons of variant classes already written up by past and present members of this forum.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by DeadReborn »

I have used Tree's method and it worked wonderfully. With that being said, I think the current method should remain unchanged in future printings and the method being discussed should be optional. Either a sidebar in the PHB or placed in the CKG.
Treebore wrote:What is it called? The C&C Companion? IE the free PDF download the Trolls eventually hosted. It has tons of variant classes already written up by past and present members of this forum.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Eisenmann »

DeadReborn wrote:I have used Tree's method and it worked wonderfully. With that being said, I think the current method should remain unchanged in
One of the most expressed complaints about C&C that I see and hear elsewhere is about the trap spotting Cleric. Will people continue to complain once the tweak is retrofitted? Yes.Without a doubt. But people could at least ask, "What PHB printing do you have?" If the tweak is tucked into the CKG then it's there to be discovered and may as well not exist for a lot of people. Besides, I'd much rather buy the next PHB and drive on than another CKG.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by jdizzy001 »

Eisenmann wrote:
DeadReborn wrote:I have used Tree's method and it worked wonderfully. With that being said, I think the current method should remain unchanged in
One of the most expressed complaints about C&C that I see and hear elsewhere is about the trap spotting Cleric. Will people continue to complain once the tweak is retrofitted? Yes.Without a doubt. But people could at least ask, "What PHB printing do you have?" If the tweak is tucked into the CKG then it's there to be discovered and may as well not exist for a lot of people. Besides, I'd much rather buy the next PHB and drive on than another CKG.
Now, that is a complaint I never understood. The rules of c&c as they are written clearly state that a character who is not trained in a skill (ie a cleric and spot) would not be able to add his level to their spot check. So, yes, a low leveled cleric would be good at a WIS based spot check (due to prime) but anything above a CL 0 is going to prove more and more difficult as opposed to another class, say the ranger, who chooses WIS as prime.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Arduin »

jdizzy001 wrote: Now, that is a complaint I never understood. The rules of c&c as they are written clearly state that a character who is not trained in a skill (ie a cleric and spot) would not be able to add his level to their spot check. So, yes, a low leveled cleric would be good at a WIS based spot check (due to prime) but anything above a CL 0 is going to prove more and more difficult as opposed to another class, say the ranger, who chooses WIS as prime.
"Spot" isn't anyone's class skill. It is like lifting a log, an attribute check only. One CAN add their level regardless of class. If it were a listed CLASS skill that one didn't have, then you'd be correct.
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Fizz wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:To play a little more of the devil's advocate. There can be a variety of types of rangers because the abilities require different attributes, but the knight does not have that benefit. They are all cookie cutter, one knight no different than the next? So why is it important the ranger have this 'restriction' (its not a restriction, I just can't think of a better word) but not the knight.
Well, i don't think this 'restriction' is a bad thing. Some classes just seem to have broader scopes (broader archetypes?) than others, but for different reasons. Rangers are diverse because of their skills set. Whereas wizards and clerics are potentially the most diverse due to spell selection. Conversely, fighters and knights and monks aren't very diverse- the only selection they get is weapon.

For such classes, the non-class primes become even more important for differentiation. If one thought this needed fixing (i'm not committing either way), maybe the knight's abilities could be reworked to be more stat based (so the actual Charisma score matters more). Or maybe horsemanship could be broken out into separate differently-based skills. <shrug>

-Fizz
Concerning the knight. That's exactly what Mac's suggestion would fix. His one ability that requires dexterity would now require charisma. This would free up a slot to become prime (removing dex).

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Aergraith wrote:If I am reading correctly (I'm certain you'll correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't sound like Steve and Tree's suggestions are the same:

Stephen's Way: Use class prime for all class ability. (Rogue would use Dexterity for Decipher Script)

Tree's Way: Temporarily promote the existing class skill's ability to a prime. (Rogue would use Intelligence to Decipher Script, but would treat Intelligence as a prime for that roll)

Stephen's way favors the player more if they (as players usually but don't always do) put the best ability score on their class prime.
Tree's way allows the variation in ability scores to remain important. It also is less jarring in terms of names for things, you don't then need to explain how the rogue is dexterously deciphering the script.

I prefer Tree's way. If you are going to change the rules, I say change to that. This really sounds like the type of variant rule that would better go in CKG or a companion supplement (Unearthed Arcana, Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space, Top Secret Companion, for example).

If you put either rule in the 6th printing, I'll still buy it and probably use the rule.
Hmm I see the technical difference, but the at table practical difference is the same. The rogue, who chose intelligence as a prime, has no reason to do so, because that ability's roll is going to be treated as a prime anyway. Essentially this gives the rogue 4 primes for a human and 3 for a demi human so far as his abilities are concerned.

Mac's way simply steam lines that. Requires only one prime, and frees up his other 2/1 for whatever ability he wants to focus on.

Steve
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Eisenmann wrote:I'm still working my way through the thread(s), but I just wanted to chime in real quick to say that if this line of thought does show up in the PH6 then I'll be buying it for sure.
Thanks! We are looking for everyone's opinion, not just those who don't like it.

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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

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Arduin wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
This does away with the archetype concept upon which the classes are based and leads to why not have an Elf Figher who can sneak up and backstab?

Steve
Not at all. I never said give non-class abilities. Simply messing with primes. A fencer type fighter will NOT have Str as a prime. Dex & Con would be in the forefront. Followed by Int. Having a fighter that leans on Dex more does NOT mess with what the classes are based. A person will still want a str up there but it doesn't matter about lifting tree trunks. (Str check).
I think I'm beginning to understand the philosophic difference in people's treatment of the primes.

Steve
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
Julian Grimm wrote:As far as spot, search and similar checks I have added in a sub-ability called perception. Perception is the average of the Wisdom and Intelligence bonuses and is used for the basic 'spot checks'. Classes like the Rogue get a +2 to spot checks and races that would get bonuses such as enhances senses gain a +1 to perception. The bonus increases at +1 per every three levels of the character.

So far it has worked well and we have enjoyed the simplicity of the idea.
We've thought of this, but this always seems to lead into ever more and more attributes and checks. If that makes sense?

That said spotting and listening are the single two most used rolls at my table. More so than combat. I look…I listen…can I see…what do I see…etc

Steve

It makes sense. However, I am not one to overuse checks so there is no more rolls than if you were using wisdom for the check. The only issue was how high the bonuses would get which is why Perception improves a +1 per three levels. For the most part I roll the checks for the players especially when it comes to secret doors and seeing hidden monsters. Even then I typically decide on whether or not they would see it and only roll when it is critical to the adventure or I am not sure if they would have seen it.

However, I do know that there will be CKs who will require a roll for every little thing and I can see how the idea would be abused.
This is why i've been gravitating ever more toward the class check, which i should really call something else. Every "spot" situation is different and different characters at the table have different chances to 'spot' this that or the other. The class check follows the Siege Engine (yours does as well), but without creating a new ability or rule. Its simply "I want to see the hidden dagger" roll on your prime attribute.

But this plays into the philosophy of the attributes that I'm growing to understand.

Steve
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
Julian Grimm wrote:As far as spot, search and similar checks I have added in a sub-ability called perception. Perception is the average of the Wisdom and Intelligence bonuses and is used for the basic 'spot checks'. Classes like the Rogue get a +2 to spot checks and races that would get bonuses such as enhances senses gain a +1 to perception. The bonus increases at +1 per every three levels of the character.

So far it has worked well and we have enjoyed the simplicity of the idea.
We've thought of this, but this always seems to lead into ever more and more attributes and checks. If that makes sense?

That said spotting and listening are the single two most used rolls at my table. More so than combat. I look…I listen…can I see…what do I see…etc

Steve

It makes sense. However, I am not one to overuse checks so there is no more rolls than if you were using wisdom for the check. The only issue was how high the bonuses would get which is why Perception improves a +1 per three levels. For the most part I roll the checks for the players especially when it comes to secret doors and seeing hidden monsters. Even then I typically decide on whether or not they would see it and only roll when it is critical to the adventure or I am not sure if they would have seen it.

However, I do know that there will be CKs who will require a roll for every little thing and I can see how the idea would be abused.
This is why i've been gravitating ever more toward the class check, which i should really call something else. Every "spot" situation is different and different characters at the table have different chances to 'spot' this that or the other. The class check follows the Siege Engine (yours does as well), but without creating a new ability or rule. Its simply "I want to see the hidden dagger" roll on your prime attribute.

But this plays into the philosophy of the attributes that I'm growing to understand.

Steve
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

tylermo wrote:I visit my girlfriend yesterday and miss one day visiting the forums, and Stephen gets all talky??? I got nothin' at this point except to ask, "Stephen, how do you want me to run the game at Game Day in Springfield?" haha
LOLOL Its because I'm frozen in for the weekend. Sheets of ice everywhere and I can't go work on stairs and paths in the back! hahahh

Steve
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Re: Class Abilities and the Prime Attribute

Post by Troll Lord »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
Omote wrote:
Fizz wrote:I hate the notion of treating all class abilities as prime. That makes every member of one class the same as any other member of the same class. That's boring. I like that rangers have to choose Dexterity or Wisdom: that's two different types of characters in one (stealthy hunter vs wise guru). Why must a class be awesome at everything?
Hate would be the word I would use to. I share Fizz's thought process exactly. Now is not the time to change this mechanic. If TLG goes to a full-on 2nd edition, then so be it. Not here. Not now.

~O
To be very, very clear. Mac isn't proposing that "all class abilities as prime." What he's put on the table is that those abilities that require an attribute check, that attribute is now their Prime Attribute.

As noted most classes would be wholly unaffected by this, as their class abilities don't require any kind of check.

Steve
I really dislike this idea. If you're going to meddle with things, just say all class abilities are checked as if they were tied to an attribute that is prime regardless of whether it is actually prime. That makes a lot more sense to me than suddenly having class ability checks tied to attributes that bear no relationship to the class ability.
I don't understand your objection. We already have class abilities that are tied to attributes that have no relation to their class ability. Why my rogue has to be dexterous is beyond me…unless he's moving deftly around the parchment.

But I think I'm understanding on a philosophic level…which I will get to shortly.

Steve
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