View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat May 25, 2019 8:55 pm



Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Spot Checks…What do You do? 
Author Message
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 3232
Post Spot Checks…What do You do?
So I accidentally got off on a tangent with spot checks in another thread, but I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on them.

Spot check is generally a wisdom check. This means, in the practical scheme of things, clerics and druids are always better at noticing things than anyone else, because they always have wisdom as a prime. A cleric has a noticeably better advantage of spotting a rogue with a hidden boot dagger than a rogue does (unless he took wisdom as a prime). A cleric has a better chance of spotting which fighter is the more skilled in a gladiatorial arena than an actual fighter does. A cleric can spot a magical affect better than a wizard can.

Aside from that, spot is used all the time, by everyone. The only thing making one better at spotting it (other than being a cleric or druid) is your level.

Personally this drives me insane.

But it does not lend itself to an easy solution. As pointed out earlier, Spot has no real good attribute for it. Making a new attribute has its own ramifications.

We've been toying with a class check, whereby depending on what you are looking for you roll a class check. The class check is always your PRIME ATTRIBUTE. So in the above scenario, if the characters are wanting to know which gladiator is more skilled I would allow the fighter/knight/ranger/paladin/barbarian make a class check…strength/charisma/strength/charisma/constitution…not because their abilities are super at spotting, but because their class allows them a greater understanding of what they are looking for in that instance.

But it lends itself to problems as well. Is the cleric and wizard still making wisdom checks?

At any rate, I would love to hear you thoughts.

Steve

_________________
_____________________________
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games


Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:14 pm
Profile
Unkbartig
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
Posts: 829
Location: NE Wisconsin
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I use INT, WIS, or CHA depending on the situation. INT tends to be for active looking, deduction, etc., so I'm more likely to use that for spot checks, looking for secret doors, etc. WIS is more passive, intuitive, experience-based perception (e.g., sensing an ambush). I use CHA for interpersonal perception (reading body language, etc.).

On a related note, I've changed the rogue and assassin Listen skills to INT - to me, it's more like Decipher Script - they're deducing the language from the partial sounds they are hearing.


Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:35 pm
Profile
Ulthal

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:26 am
Posts: 525
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
WIS check. Always a WIS check. However, to facilitate training or something that a certain class should be good at but isn't, for some reason, I will lower the CL.

_________________
Image


Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:26 pm
Profile
Lore Drake

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am
Posts: 1049
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I've always gone Wisdom myself, but i try to keep away from them. I would not allow the character to add level, except for rangers and thieves, unless there was a good reason to do so. For example, i might allow a paladin to add his level to to the check if he were searching for undead- as the bane of such creatures, he knows what to look for.

Was there such a thing as a "spot check" before 3E? What did people do before 3E?

-Fizz


Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:08 pm
Profile
Mogrl

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20660
Location: Arizona and St Louis
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
SPOT/Search/Perception/Notice Checks:

Only Barbarian, Rangers, Thieves and Assassins can add their level to a Spot check, everyone else can treat it as 12 or 18, but do not add level.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:17 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 2000
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I've tied it to wisdom per the RAW. The rule ultimately works in that it provides a consistent method for resolving spot check situations. The game runs fine as written even if it doesn't make any sense. I've decided not to worry about it.

_________________
tylermo wrote:
Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.


Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:21 pm
Profile
Mogrl

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20660
Location: Arizona and St Louis
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Buttmonkey wrote:
I've tied it to wisdom per the RAW. The rule ultimately works in that it provides a consistent method for resolving spot check situations. The game runs fine as written even if it doesn't make any sense. I've decided not to worry about it.


My House Rule keeps it tied to WIS Prime, but also gives it as a "Class Ability" to the above listed classes, and they are the ones who get to add level. But I also try to go for a more Iconic feel to my classes, which is why I selected the classes I did, with my groups consensus. They are the ones most likely to be vigilant, or observant.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:25 pm
Profile
Maukling
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 5842
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
This is a tricky one. C&C often straddles old and new when it comes to house rules and decisions. To some, the old way of doing things sounds odd to newer players and vice-versa. So it makes an all-encompassing rule (or ruling) hard to appeal to all. That being said, C&C is touted as being house rule friendly, and that's something I feel shouldn't be lost. Should some things remain un-etched as to keep the spirit of house ruling intact? Or is this one of those things that absolutely needs an "across the board" hard rule on? I don't know.

However, if I were the High Troll making the big decisions, and I wanted this in the game, I would probably make it a class ability, much like Listen is. So if that's what you were saying, Steve, when you said "class check," then I agree. I would probably do something like this:

Spot (Wisdom): This ability is used to detect something or someone that is hidden. If the character is attempting to spot someone hiding who had used the Hide class ability, this attempt is an opposed check - compare the margin of success, and the greater margin of success wins. The CK sets the CB for noticing things such as secret doors, traps, or other pieces of obscured importance.

Something like that.

I would make it a class ability of the rogue, assassin, monk, and ranger. Maybe barbarian, too, but not necessarily. Making it a class ability gives these classes their level to the check, whether or not they have wisdom prime (all except the monk would of the above classes) and every one else would add their level. The major problem I have with this method, personally, is the affects the Hide class ability. I would probably mention in both the Spot and the Hide class abilities to state that only classes that have the Spot class ability can make the opposed roll (and attempt to spot) those hiding with the Hide class ability. That sounds a little convoluted, though. :)

Another way to do it would be to disjoin it from the SIEGE mechanic and make it a d10 roll, or a d20 roll. That would mean rewriting the racial abilities to spot hidden doors to fall in line with these. And it would make a different mechanic other than SIEGE, which I'd be opposed to.

But I agree with you, Steve - it drives me crazy, too. I currently use the 2nd Edition AD&D mechanic for surprise. For spotting, I just allow rogues, assassins, and rangers do it better than anyone else, and don't stress a check. I tried to rationalize the any mental prime approach, the wisdom approach, and neither one works for me. I think a class ability would work the best, if it needs to be a hard rule.

_________________
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.


Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:19 am
Profile
Clang lives!
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 7085
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I use an average of all mental attribute bonuses plus some bonuses for being prime in a mental attribute, being a certain race, and a certain class. All checks are made vs a TN of 15. It has worked out more or less for my games. However, I've been thinking of going with a separate check based on whichever mental attribute the situation calls for.

R-

_________________
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads


Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:20 am
Profile
Cleric of Zagyg
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 10725
Location: Somewhere in Time
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
For spot/perception checks, I allow players to use WIS, INT or CHA! :)

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth


Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:21 am
Profile
Battle Stag
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 11551
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I also use INT or WIS based on the situation.

However, this is something I only do when warrented, and usually due to a random encounter, or some off-the-wall action the player is performing, or the enemy actively hiding from the PCs, otherwise I usually skip the spot check. Hidden doors might be the only other reason I even call for, or make the roll for the PCs. I don't like to get bogged down in these kinds of rolls. The spot check is not a new invention to FRPGs, but since the advent of 3E is has been a very popular default action by CKs. Why? It seems like a useless time waster, and just an excuse to roll dice. If there are 5 people playing in the game, the chances someone notices something is probably pretty good. As CK, if the characters need to notice something to move the story ahead, then so be it. They notice it. If the story is better going with the PCs spotting a hidden door, then do it. If a CK calls for a spot check, and all of the PCs fail it, well then, you have just given away something and now the players are going to be on their toes. No, generally speaking I do not use a "spot," or "listen" check.

~O

_________________
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<


Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:08 am
Profile WWW
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 3232
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Lord Dynel, that is an interesting concept…doing class abilities.

I think we all agree that the spot system is wonky.

Let me throw a few examples out there and see how you change it.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger?
Rogue?
Paladin?
Druid?
Wizard?

Steve

_________________
_____________________________
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games


Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:16 am
Profile
Clang lives!
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 7085
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord Dynel, that is an interesting concept…doing class abilities.

I think we all agree that the spot system is wonky.

Let me throw a few examples out there and see how you change it.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger?
Rogue?
Paladin?
Druid?
Wizard?

Steve

I'd go with an Int check, since the character is "actively" looking for something. If they said, "Do I notice anything out of the ordinary about that npc," then I'd go with a Wis check.

R-

_________________
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads


Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:35 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 3232
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Rigon wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord Dynel, that is an interesting concept…doing class abilities.

I think we all agree that the spot system is wonky.

Let me throw a few examples out there and see how you change it.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger?
Rogue?
Paladin?
Druid?
Wizard?

Steve

I'd go with an Int check, since the character is "actively" looking for something. If they said, "Do I notice anything out of the ordinary about that npc," then I'd go with a Wis check.

R-


I tend to think spot should be intelligence. But then I thought…and one can WAY WAY over think these things . . . that gives the wizard and advantage of spying a concealed weapon, when it seems, logically, that the rogue should have the advantage, as that's what he does.

I'm not sure about yall's games but I get asked these questions all the time. Last night, during an encounter with the King of Rohesien Hohle, a dwarf stood up and contradicted himself from last week's game. Immediately davis and chris were asking me questions. Chris (the wizard) was wanting to know if he could see the tell tale signs of a spell being cast. Davis (cleric) wanted to know any peculiar things about his demeanor. So I had chris make the intelligence check, and davis a wisdom check as they are both looking for things they might have reasonable chance to detect. Mac the ranger has asked before if he could detect magical things and I always respond, 'no', without even a check. hahaha

Steve

Steve

_________________
_____________________________
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games


Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:47 am
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 1693
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I like where this thread is heading. I have always liked more of an emphasis on class rather than attributes to differentiate abilities.

Like many here, I have always opposed using wisdom for these checks. Part of my objection is the notion of wisdom (as "experience") as an attribute in the game at all. To me, experience is gained through adventuring and is better represented by your level. I prefer wisdom to represent more of a "will" attribute.

If you do go the route of using class to differentiate, you will be able to easily assess issues like whether a certain weapon is being used to kill villagers (warrior types) or the importance of an obscure alchemical formula in a dusty tome (wizard). But it still sits uneasily with primes, given that non prime but correct class PCs are still going to fail lots of such check, given the enormity of the prime's +6 advantage. So we have not yet completely vanquished the old "the cleric spots things better than the (non prime) trained thief" issue

Also, some situations are much more vague regarding who exactly should get the bonus. If an evil sorcerer tries to deftly slip a poisoned concoction into the stew, who should get the bonus to spot it? Wizards? (alchemy), druids? (concoction is natural), ranger? (delay/neutralize poison skill), rogues and assassins? (poison, duh!), cleric? (no class specialty but has the old traditional wisdom prime), Rolf the barbarian?, (has no class abilities regarding poison, but the PC has played him with an interest in poison throughout the campaign and he has had more use/experience of poisons in the campaign than all the other PCs in the game combined).

For the more general spots and notices like this, if one moves away from using wisdom one could quickly develop a situation where there are many overlapping justifications for the bonus. In a group game like C&C, few secrets will be able to remain hidden in the face of 5 or 6 rolls. An advantage of the clumsy wisdom check approach is precisely that it does limit the number of checks (or, at least those with substantial bonuses)

Another related issue is perhaps allowing PCs with some specialty in the area to make passive checks (i.e. the DM rolls secretly to see if they notice something, rather than waiting for them to initiate the check). Such checks certainly make some sense in realism terms for someone specialised in an area, even if the obtuse player does not pick up on what happened, but such an approach also has drawbacks in terms of making the game less challenging and less about player decisions and choices


Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:45 am
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am
Posts: 1593
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Aramis wrote:
Another related issue is perhaps allowing PCs with some specialty in the area to make passive checks (i.e. the DM rolls secretly to see if they notice something, rather than waiting for them to initiate the check). Such checks certainly make some sense in realism terms for someone specialised in an area, even if the obtuse player does not pick up on what happened, but such an approach also has drawbacks in terms of making the game less challenging and less about player decisions and choices

I do this quite a bit. The bolded part has never really been a problem as I've never had a player want me to take it back. :D

As far as the "spot" checks go. I've always tied it to the class of the character. A Magic user would be able to notice words or hand motions that could be attached to casting a spell, where as a Thief wouldn't have a clue. I guess you could say I use situations to determine just who could use "spot" checks. So, in most cases they are usually tied to Int or Wis but if one was to track someone through a forest, even though a Cleric may have a better Wis that a Ranger, I just wouldn't let the Cleric track as it doesn't make sense to his class.

_________________
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson


Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:20 am
Profile
Maukling
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 5842
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord Dynel, that is an interesting concept…doing class abilities.

I think we all agree that the spot system is wonky.

Let me throw a few examples out there and see how you change it.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger?
Rogue?
Paladin?
Druid?
Wizard?

Steve


Well, if it's a class ability, then I'd give it (assuming your choice above) to the Ranger and Rogue only.

Then its's SIEGE check, and if they have the Spot ability as a Prime (let's assume Wisdom), then it's be base 12, but CL of the NPC (again, assume 1) for a TN of 13. The Ranger and Rogue roll their d20, add 1 (level) plus their Wis modifier and check for success.

Now, the Paladin, Druid, and Wizard - assuming you allow them a roll (if they don't have the Spot ability), would roll against a CB of 18 or 12 (depending on if Wis is a Prime) add the CL of the NPC (1) but wouldn't add their level (only Wis modifier).

Now, Steve, you can also vary the Prime of the Spot ability, but this might cause problems if a class attempts to roll for Spot that doesn't have the ability. For example:

Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, and Assassin get Spot (Wisdom) and maybe notices things (items of interest, concealed doors, etc) or people.
Wizard, Monk, and Bard get Notice (Intelligence) but only works for things hidden, not people.

If a class that doesn't have either ability, say a Fighter, then they roll without adding class level and maybe the ability depends on what they're trying to see. If the fighter is trying to scan a tavern room for a hidden character, they have to roll wisdom (since that's tied to people being noticed) but if they're looking at a person for a concealed weapon, they could roll against intelligence or wisdom, since Spot or Notice could detect either one.

Charisma could be thrown in, but maybe as a class ability to detect anomalies in social situations. That might be a bit convoluted, though.

I think doing it as a class ability is the way to go. Considering what already are considered class abilities. I think it's a good balance to the "clerics are the best spotters" issue. They'd still be good, but classes that have the ability would eventually be better.

_________________
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.


Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:44 pm
Profile
Maukling
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 5842
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Troll Lord wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord Dynel, that is an interesting concept…doing class abilities.

I think we all agree that the spot system is wonky.

Let me throw a few examples out there and see how you change it.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger?
Rogue?
Paladin?
Druid?
Wizard?

Steve

I'd go with an Int check, since the character is "actively" looking for something. If they said, "Do I notice anything out of the ordinary about that npc," then I'd go with a Wis check.

R-


I tend to think spot should be intelligence. But then I thought…and one can WAY WAY over think these things . . . that gives the wizard and advantage of spying a concealed weapon, when it seems, logically, that the rogue should have the advantage, as that's what he does.

I'm not sure about yall's games but I get asked these questions all the time. Last night, during an encounter with the King of Rohesien Hohle, a dwarf stood up and contradicted himself from last week's game. Immediately davis and chris were asking me questions. Chris (the wizard) was wanting to know if he could see the tell tale signs of a spell being cast. Davis (cleric) wanted to know any peculiar things about his demeanor. So I had chris make the intelligence check, and davis a wisdom check as they are both looking for things they might have reasonable chance to detect. Mac the ranger has asked before if he could detect magical things and I always respond, 'no', without even a check. hahaha

Steve

Steve


And that's a good way to look at it, I feel. There doesn't have to be an all-encompassing one "Spot" skill to be a catch-all. I wrote my previous post with only reading your initial response to my post, then I've come back to look at other posts, too. And there are some really great ideas. Since my last post (and with a shower and a coffee :)) I think separating up the spotting by what you're trying to spot, as well as what ability it ties into might be a viable option. It fixes the different things a PC is trying to notice and divvies them into separate skills. And a class could have more than one.

Spot (Wisdom) : finds hidden people, surprise, ambushes, concealed weapons on a person, etc. Available to rogues, rangers, assassins.
Notice (Intelligence): find hidden items in an immediate area (concealed and secret doors, that gleaming gem in the fireplace, the trap on the lock, etc.). Available to rangers, rogues, bards, wizards, illusionists.
Empathize (Charisma): detects anomalies on a social level. Get a "hunch" about the target (scared, lying, or other odd acting behavior). Available to bards, paladins, knights.

This is all mutable, of course. Just throwing out some possibilities. This would allow a CK to pick the appropriate ability determined by what the PC is looking for and whether or not to add level (basically, whether or not it's a class ability).

_________________
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.


Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:27 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 4514
Location: SW Missouri
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
As I said in the other thread I have a Perception sub-ability that I use that begins as the average of the WIS and INT bonuses. For the sake of the thread I will share the write up and how I have adjusted the rules to use it:


Perception: Perception is a derived ability that is used for listening, searching and spotting. The ability is derived from the average of the bonuses for WIS and INT. A perception check is required for any activity that involves trying to find secret doors, searching a room, listening for noise and similar activities. The check is rolled as any other check but some perception checks should be rolled by the CK so that the player is not aware of the outcome.

Primes: Since Perception is an average of two scores primes are handled a bit differently. If only one of the scores (INT or WIS) is prime the character uses 15 as the challenge base for the check, if both abilities are prime then the challenge base is 12, if no abilities are prime then the challenge base is 18.*

Advancement: In order to keep from having a bloat in bonuses Perception increases at +1 per three levels of the character.



Race and Class Adjustments: The use of the Perception ability does change some aspects of certain classes and races. These changes now add bonuses to the ability. The changes are as follows:

Classes

Rogue and Assassin: These classes gain a +2 to perception at first level. This replaces the Listen ability of both classes. For the Assassin, Perception is used for the Case Target ability

Paladin: Perception is used for the Detect Evil ability. A failed check means that no evil is detected but an uneasy feeling about a creature or person being observed will remain or that the Paladin has misread the target.

Races

Dwarf: Perception is used for the Stonecraft ability if construction is being observed. It is not used for crafting purposes.

Elf: Enhanced Senses gives an elf a +2 to perception. As well, Perception is used for the Hidden Doors ability. An active search for a hidden or secret door gains a +2 bonus to perception but only for finding these doors.

Gnome: Enhanced Hearing gives a +3 bonus to perception only on checks involving listening.

Half-Elf: For all Half-Elves the Hidden Doors ability adds a +1 to active searches for hidden or secret doors. Half-Elves of a human linage gain no other bonus to perception. Half-Elves of an Elven linage gain a +1 to Perception from Enhanced senses.

Halfling: No bonuses.

Half-Orc:Half-Orcs gain a +2 perception from their Enhanced sense of smell. This bonus is only used for situations when smell is used. It applies to no other checks.

Humans: No bonuses.


Using Perception: For the most part, Perception should be rolled by the CK and only the CK. The player should not know whether or not the check succeeded to keep a level of suspense in the game.




There you have it. Feel free to steal, or alter this if you like it.

*My own campaign uses a variant of the SIEGE Engine which changes how primes work. This section is included to be more in line with the C&C rules.

_________________
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06


Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:17 pm
Profile WWW
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:13 am
Posts: 427
Location: Bellevue, NE
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Julian Grimm wrote:
As I said in the other thread I have a Perception sub-ability that I use that begins as the average of the WIS and INT bonuses. For the sake of the thread I will share the write up and how I have adjusted the rules to use it:


Perception: Perception is a derived ability that is used for listening, searching and spotting. The ability is derived from the average of the bonuses for WIS and INT. A perception check is required for any activity that involves trying to find secret doors, searching a room, listening for noise and similar activities. The check is rolled as any other check but some perception checks should be rolled by the CK so that the player is not aware of the outcome.

Primes: Since Perception is an average of two scores primes are handled a bit differently. If only one of the scores (INT or WIS) is prime the character uses 15 as the challenge base for the check, if both abilities are prime then the challenge base is 12, if no abilities are prime then the challenge base is 18.*
<snip>
This is what my group does as well.

Now to just keep it simple, the CK could just decide, without resorting to dice, if a PC sees / notices (I don't like the term 'spot') something based on the level of description given by a player and the conditions at the time. Remember - dice do not need to be used for all things. ;)

_________________
Imaginatio est Vita


Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:45 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 2000
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
My instinct would be to leave things alone since any change in the RAW to accommodate spot checks is likely to be somewhat complicated. The game's been going strong for a decade as is. Spot checks can be resolved on an ad hoc basis. For the concealed weapon example, I think I would first decide if the PC belongs to a class that works with weapons/security (i.e., fighter, ranger, rogue, and assassin, although a good argument could be made to throw in the barbarian, monk, knight, and paladin). If the PC falls into one of those categories, I'd let them make a SIEGE check based on their prime attribute and add level. If the PC didn't fall into one of those classes, I'd have them make a SIEGE check against a theoretical non-prime attribute and add/subtract any intelligence modifier they had, but not add level to the check. I don't think that is the sort of thing you want to write up as an official rule, but it resolves the issue in a way that makes sense to me.

I like the idea of creating a seventh attribute called perception. I wouldn't make it an average of intelligence and wisdom, though. I'd roll 3d6 for it just like the other attributes. Then it's up to the players to decide if they want to make it a prime attribute. Doing so sacrifices saving throws, etc. in another area, but gives a big boost to things like spot checks. Decisions decisions decisions...

_________________
tylermo wrote:
Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.


Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:43 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 4514
Location: SW Missouri
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
In most of my games I tend to rule on the fly if they have found something. If I am not sure I let the dice decide the outcome. Typically I keep the die rolls to a minimum but I do let them stand where they fall if I roll.

_________________
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06


Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:30 am
Profile WWW
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 425
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Lord Dynel wrote:
I think separating up the spotting by what you're trying to spot, as well as what ability it ties into might be a viable option. It fixes the different things a PC is trying to notice and divvies them into separate skills. And a class could have more than one.

Spot (Wisdom) : finds hidden people, surprise, ambushes, concealed weapons on a person, etc. Available to rogues, rangers, assassins.
Notice (Intelligence): find hidden items in an immediate area (concealed and secret doors, that gleaming gem in the fireplace, the trap on the lock, etc.). Available to rangers, rogues, bards, wizards, illusionists.
Empathize (Charisma): detects anomalies on a social level. Get a "hunch" about the target (scared, lying, or other odd acting behavior). Available to bards, paladins, knights.

This is all mutable, of course. Just throwing out some possibilities. This would allow a CK to pick the appropriate ability determined by what the PC is looking for and whether or not to add level (basically, whether or not it's a class ability).

I like this! Very elegant, LD!


Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:14 am
Profile
Lore Drake

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am
Posts: 1049
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Lord Dynel wrote:
Spot (Wisdom) : finds hidden people, surprise, ambushes, concealed weapons on a person, etc. Available to rogues, rangers, assassins.
Notice (Intelligence): find hidden items in an immediate area (concealed and secret doors, that gleaming gem in the fireplace, the trap on the lock, etc.). Available to rangers, rogues, bards, wizards, illusionists.
Empathize (Charisma): detects anomalies on a social level. Get a "hunch" about the target (scared, lying, or other odd acting behavior). Available to bards, paladins, knights.


I think this is an excellent idea, because it expresses different types of "spotting" or "perception". Noticing something is certainly not limited to one skill set. I notice problems in code or equations for instance, but i'm told i misread emotions. <shrug>

The scholar is more likely to notice that the handwriting in the ancient tome isn't consistent. A hunter is more likely to get a sense that he's being watched. A diplomat is more likely to notice when someone is nervous or lying. They're all different skills, and all deserve different checks.

And it leverages the existing system without having to add anything. That's exactly what the system is supposed to be!


-Fizz


Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:44 am
Profile
Mogrl

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20660
Location: Arizona and St Louis
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
LD, I've already been kind of sort of doing that myself. Just never wrote out a formalized house rule in conjunction with my groups deciding to officially make the Spot "skill" part of several classes repertoire. Now that most of the writing has been done for me...

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:53 pm
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 1207
Location: Washington, D.C. (Belle Haven)
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I use a simple "WISDOM" Check.

If you chose Wisdom as your Prime - good for you it makes it easier to spot things.
If you didn't well that sucks then.

I don't find it cumbersome at all asking for Spot/Wisdom Checks, nor is it a give away that there is something in the room.
I just randomly ask for Wisdom Checks to keep the Players on their toes.

I do not see a need to change this. It doesn't annoy me nor do I find it unbalancing.

When get into the idea of Intelligence or some other attribute, along with the idea that circumstance/experience would dictate the PC having a better chance at "Spotting"
Take the Scholar example below. I may have all the head knowledge in the world about handwriting, but if I don't have the common sense to apply it, i.e. the wisdom that something is pattern or out of the ordinary it won't matter.
If need be in these circumstances give them a +2 or use their class level.

The whole point of C&C was to give you the tool to run the game the way you want to. It is still capable of doing just that, so really why the changes then?


Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:11 pm
Profile
Lore Drake

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am
Posts: 1049
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
TheMetal1 wrote:
Take the Scholar example below. I may have all the head knowledge in the world about handwriting, but if I don't have the common sense to apply it, i.e. the wisdom that something is pattern or out of the ordinary it won't matter.


Not necessarily. I would argue that seeing patterns is a function of Intelligence, not Wisdom. Or maybe it's a matter of noticing a mathematical or spelling mistake.

I've nothing against Wisdom checks. But the reason for the 'change' is to allow more than just Wisdom prime characters to be the ones who notice stuff. The only "complexity" is deciding which attribute to use, but that's up to the CK, it's otherwise the same as any other check.

That's why Dynel's idea is so elegant. More flexibility without adding complexity.


-Fizz


Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:44 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Posts: 3698
Location: Oklahoma
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
I tend to be in the camp with 'themetal' on this on (well I would be if I ran a game that is). If you want to be good at spotting things, take Wis as one of your 3 primes ... If not, be good at other things.

That said, if a character does take wisdom as a prime (who isn't a cleric) they would get extra info ... That fighter that has wis as a prime may see the perfect place for an ambush (or to be ambushed) or notices that unassuming guy in the back of the hoard is the big threat that needs to die first, the thief will be a master at spotting (more than traps) etc etc etc.

Now the argument that clerics are to good at it ... then only let them add their level with things that fall into their skill set, and not into things that a fighter (with a wis prime) would notice that a cleric won't. On top of that, being in tune with God (which ever the cleric follows) and being on the path that He (She/It) wants you on will open up guidance to see what needs to be seen when it needs to be seen ... So the cleric should be spotting things others miss.

_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society


Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:13 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 3350
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Ancalagon wrote:

Now to just keep it simple, the CK could just decide, without resorting to dice, if a PC sees / notices (I don't like the term 'spot') something based on the level of description given by a player and the conditions at the time. Remember - dice do not need to be used for all things. ;)


THIS

Instead of adding a stat or rules and such, add a passage about playing this out.
Of course, some folks are jsut plain stuck, so I guess there needs to be a spot check of some kind.

I second the class-related things are always prime Idea as floated above several times. (ex, fighters checking out which other fighters are toughest, rangers noticing broken branches, etc)

_________________
Bill D.
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781


Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:22 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 3232
Post Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?
Very interesting approaches to spot.

I think these need rounded up and put in a Crusader article. LD, I really like yours system there. Really it should be in the Crusader.

As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone. I liked' Metal's comment. Chose wisdom or suck it!

And to answer my own questions why do clerics see better? To quote Davis' never ending babble from his Cleric Braelic "Its the will of the gods!" . . . really everything that happens at the table, good and bad, his character says that, "its the will of the gods". For 4 years we've been running this game. He started saying it at 3rd level (after he unsewed his mouth, which he had sewn shut in order to hear the will of the gods…and yes, he lost all spell use that required verbal which for a cleric is a lot). and began saying it so much so that it began to bother every one else at the table (except Mac, he loves good role playing). For about a year everyone was bitching at him, until over time, they quit complaining and now just believe it is the will of the gods! hahaha

All that said, I use the Class Check constantly at the table, for the reasons mentioned before and it will go in the Adventurer's Backpack and not the Players Handbook. Its really where it belongs.

Trollzah!
Steve

_________________
_____________________________
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games


Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:07 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.