Spot Checks…What do You do?

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Snoring Rock »

I have not read all of details posted, but I would like to throw my hat in the ring. No, it makes no sense that the cleric can spot better than the rogue or the ranger. Adding another mechanic to the game is not an option either. I am not on board with making it a strength check either. That is what would be happening in a sense with CLASS PRIME.

Does the fighter, cleric, or bard really spot as well as a rogue or ranger? The dwarf and elf get racial modifiers for these search and spot checks. However, humans and halflings can spot things, just not as well. Since the classes are already taken care of, perhaps, it is as easy as giving the rogue and ranger a bonus of some kind as well.

I am not comfortable with giving everyone a spot checks as a class ability. I think Lord Dynel has this correct.

An NPC is approaching a character. The player says, "I try to see if they have any concealed weapons."

Assume all classes are first level. What roll do the following classes make?

Ranger? Class ability: Prime 12: d20+level+ability modifier
Rogue? Class ability: Prime 12: d20+level+ability modifier
Paladin? Not a class ability: Prime/not prime: 12/18: d20+modifier
Druid? Not a class ability: Prime/not prime: 12/18: d20+modifier
Wizard? Not a class ability: Prime/not prime: 12/18: d20+modifier
Add spot as a class ability to some classes where it makes sense. Leave the rest using wisdom checks, may prime, maybe not, but no use of level. As the levels increase, those who can do it, begin to lead the pack in that ability.

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by kreider204 »

Troll Lord wrote: As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone.
I think that's best. Those of us who don't like it probably already have our own house rules.

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Eisenmann
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Eisenmann »

kreider204 wrote:
Troll Lord wrote: As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone.
I think that's best. Those of us who don't like it probably already have our own house rules.
Boooo! *reaches for a tomato*

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by kreider204 »

Eisenmann wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
Troll Lord wrote: As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone.
I think that's best. Those of us who don't like it probably already have our own house rules.
Boooo! *reaches for a tomato*
Hey, free tomatoes!

;)

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Troll Lord
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Troll Lord »

Eisenmann wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
Troll Lord wrote: As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone.
I think that's best. Those of us who don't like it probably already have our own house rules.
Boooo! *reaches for a tomato*
you made you spot check and saw the tomatoes!

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Rigon »

Troll Lord wrote:Very interesting approaches to spot.

As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone. I liked' Metal's comment. Chose wisdom or suck it!

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I would say this about the other discussion about primes and class skills. Choice your primes with care or suck it! ;)

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Lurker »

Rigon wrote:
.... Choice your primes with care or suck it! ;)

R-

You know this is the second time today I have been told to suck it ... :shock:

For some reason my loving wife to me to do so after I sent her a nice Christmassy picture of a huge tarantula spider crawling across a Santa hat ... :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Lurker »

Troll Lord wrote:
Eisenmann wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
Troll Lord wrote: As it stands now, I'm going to leave the spot check alone.
I think that's best. Those of us who don't like it probably already have our own house rules.
Boooo! *reaches for a tomato*
you made you spot check and saw the tomatoes!

:lol: :lol:

Steve

Now the question is, will he make the spot check to see which one of us here needs the tomatoes thrown at them, or will he just throw them at random?
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Eisenmann
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Eisenmann »

Lurker wrote:
Now the question is, will he make the spot check to see which one of us here needs the tomatoes thrown at them, or will he just throw them at random?

Image

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Dracyian
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Dracyian »

I know I am a little late, but what about adding a sentence or two in the spot check saying that each clas will spot things better that have to do with their class and abilities like I read it somewhere before, credit to who gave me the idea, not sure on his/her name lol and this is me being lazy to look but a wizard is more apt to notice a disparity on a tome or writing, while a druid/ranger will notice a disparity in the wild or with floral/fauna

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by kreider204 »

Dracyian wrote:I know I am a little late, but what about adding a sentence or two in the spot check saying that each clas will spot things better that have to do with their class and abilities like I read it somewhere before, credit to who gave me the idea, not sure on his/her name lol and this is me being lazy to look but a wizard is more apt to notice a disparity on a tome or writing, while a druid/ranger will notice a disparity in the wild or with floral/fauna
I like that, and it could be as simple as discussing whether they get to add their level to checks.

EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.

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Dracyian
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Dracyian »

kreider204 wrote:
Dracyian wrote:I know I am a little late, but what about adding a sentence or two in the spot check saying that each clas will spot things better that have to do with their class and abilities like I read it somewhere before, credit to who gave me the idea, not sure on his/her name lol and this is me being lazy to look but a wizard is more apt to notice a disparity on a tome or writing, while a druid/ranger will notice a disparity in the wild or with floral/fauna
I like that, and it could be as simple as discussing whether they get to add their level to checks.

EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
I like it cause it doesn't add any more rules, it is just saying "Hey you could use this rule like this"

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by TheMetal1 »

Troll Lord wrote:Chose wisdom or suck it!
Too funny! I think there is something profound and deeply spiritual about this statement. Which is probably why it falls in the realms of clerics anyway.

On another note the Adventures Backpack sounds like's it's shaping up offer a whole host of things. Look forward to seeing the optional/alternate rules in there.

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Lobo316 »

kreider204 wrote:
Dracyian wrote:
EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
OK, I'm liking that. :D

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by PeelSeel2 »

kreider204 wrote:
Dracyian wrote:I know I am a little late, but what about adding a sentence or two in the spot check saying that each clas will spot things better that have to do with their class and abilities like I read it somewhere before, credit to who gave me the idea, not sure on his/her name lol and this is me being lazy to look but a wizard is more apt to notice a disparity on a tome or writing, while a druid/ranger will notice a disparity in the wild or with floral/fauna
I like that, and it could be as simple as discussing whether they get to add their level to checks.

EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
That is pretty much the way I do it. A Bard , a cleric, and a fighter are trying to spot their tail in a crowded city. I call it a charisma spot check with a CL 6. I allow the bard to add level, the cleric half-level, and the fighter just a straight check.

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by zombiehands »

Personally, I think of the attributes differently. Physical attributes are fairly straight forward, but with mental ones it is hard to discern between Intelligence and Wisdom. So I did an arbitrary break between them. As a jumping off point I looked at the definitions from Encarta Dictionary of each mental attribute.

Intelligence: 1 “ability to think and learn” The ability to learn facts and skills and apply them, especially when this ability is highly developed.

Wisdom: 1 “Good Sense” the ability to make sensible decisions and judgments based on personal knowledge and experience 2 “Accumulated Learning” accumulated knowledge of life or of a sphere of activity that has been gained through experience

Charisma: 1 “Personal Magnetism” the ability to inspire enthusiasm, interest, or affection in others by means of personal charm or influence. 2. “Divine Gift” a gift or power believed to be divinely bestowed.

Well to me Intelligence and Wisdom have a lot of overlap and neither really apply to “Spotting”. Thinking about it they are just bad picks for attributes. So I looked at class abilities under Wisdom: Tracking, Survival, Avoiding and Setting Snares, Listen, and Neutralize Poison. Intelligence has Creating and Identifying traps Poison, Finding and Removing Traps, and Decipher Script. If you remove the setting snares and Neutralize poison one thing jumps out at me, animals (and by extension, non-intelligent monsters) can perform them as well or better than humans. So I though along the lines as mental attributes as something only Humans (and by extension humanoid types) can do as being intelligence whereas if animals (and non-humanoid monsters) then it Wisdom.

So with that Intelligence would be my go to ability check for something that takes knowledge analytical thought and wisdom for things that animal can do. Tarzan has a high wisdom (and wisdom prime). A scientist has a high Intelligence and prime.

With my redefining of Wisdom, it really does not seem to have much to do with the gods though. That is where going back to dictionary helped Charisma does have Divinity in the definition. So it made sense to me to change the Cleric to Charisma prime and spell casting Attribute. But I left the Druid as Wisdom since it has more “animal”.
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by zombiehands »

Double post
There are two novels that can change a 14-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by PeelSeel2 »

zombiehands wrote:Double post
Ironic with your forum name.

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Treebore »

I also use WIS for perceiving things they aren't actively looking for, IE surprise, or things they notice walking through a room, while not actively looking. I use INT for when they are actively looking, using search strategies, etc...
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by mbeacom »

kreider204 wrote:
Dracyian wrote:I know I am a little late, but what about adding a sentence or two in the spot check saying that each clas will spot things better that have to do with their class and abilities like I read it somewhere before, credit to who gave me the idea, not sure on his/her name lol and this is me being lazy to look but a wizard is more apt to notice a disparity on a tome or writing, while a druid/ranger will notice a disparity in the wild or with floral/fauna
I like that, and it could be as simple as discussing whether they get to add their level to checks.

EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
Agreed. Once you uncouple ability score from certain activities and make it the decision of the CK based on the situation, everything fixes itself. and once again the siege engine becomes the perfect tool of flexibility and consistency.
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Lobo316 »

kreider204 wrote:
EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
So, kreider204, stealing inspiration from this quote and this thread in general, I reworked how I'm doing my spot checks.

Spotting Things
Any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. I will use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As a general rule, the following will apply…

• Races that gain a bonus to listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks that involve hearing (elf +2, gnome +3, half-elf elven lineage +2, etc.).
• Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues, Assassins will, in most cases, add their level to spot checks.
• Other abilities from secondary skills or advantages may apply, subject to CK approval.
• In general, Intelligence will be used for active checks, while Wisdom will be used for passive.
• Charisma will be used in social situations or personal observations (Is the man afraid? Is he lying or hiding something?).

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:I also use WIS for perceiving things they aren't actively looking for, IE surprise, or things they notice walking through a room, while not actively looking. I use INT for when they are actively looking, using search strategies, etc...

That's how I do it too.
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by kreider204 »

Lobo316 wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
So, kreider204, stealing inspiration from this quote and this thread in general, I reworked how I'm doing my spot checks.

Spotting Things
Any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. I will use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As a general rule, the following will apply…

• Races that gain a bonus to listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks that involve hearing (elf +2, gnome +3, half-elf elven lineage +2, etc.).
• Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues, Assassins will, in most cases, add their level to spot checks.
• Other abilities from secondary skills or advantages may apply, subject to CK approval.
• In general, Intelligence will be used for active checks, while Wisdom will be used for passive.
• Charisma will be used in social situations or personal observations (Is the man afraid? Is he lying or hiding something?).
That looks great. Glad I could be inspiring! :)

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Lobo316
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Lobo316 »

kreider204 wrote:
Lobo316 wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
EDIT: My concerns vanish with the simple tweak that any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and that it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. So for spot, I'd use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As far as I'm concerned, that's barely even a house rule, and pretty consistent with the spirit of the SIEGE engine, if not always the letter.
So, kreider204, stealing inspiration from this quote and this thread in general, I reworked how I'm doing my spot checks.

Spotting Things
Any attribute mentioned in the PHB is a suggestion only, and it's always up to the CK what attribute to use and whether to add level. I will use INT, WIS, or CHA as I see fit, and add level only if I think the class is relevant. As a general rule, the following will apply…

• Races that gain a bonus to listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks that involve hearing (elf +2, gnome +3, half-elf elven lineage +2, etc.).
• Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues, Assassins will, in most cases, add their level to spot checks.
• Other abilities from secondary skills or advantages may apply, subject to CK approval.
• In general, Intelligence will be used for active checks, while Wisdom will be used for passive.
• Charisma will be used in social situations or personal observations (Is the man afraid? Is he lying or hiding something?).
That looks great. Glad I could be inspiring! :)

Well, I liked the way you worded it, but I really think everyone contributed a little something here or there. Made for some good discussion on a topic that obviously needed some discussing. Gotta thank the Troll Lord for posting the topic in the first place :D

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by AGNKim »

Here's a little story about INT vs. WIS:

I once played a Druid with an 18 WIS and a 6 INT. Guy was really dumb but kept spouting these colloquialisms during the game.
"My daddy used tah' say it ain't the dog in the fight it's the fight in tha' dog ya gotta look out fer..."
"Like my grandpa used to say, 'You ain't shoulda use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut'"

He also would look at plants in the woods and give unsolicited advice:
"That there is poison sumac. If'n you get that on to ya, you oughta rub some pig fat on it and sleep underneath a pecan tree. The pig fat will leach out the poison and the pecan tree will drop pecans on the ground so ya can eat ya something."
"Try not to brush up agin' that bush with the spikey leaves on it." "Why? Is it poisonous?" "Naw, but them spikey leaves might scratch ya."

No idea why I brought that up...

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Relaxo »

Lurker wrote: For some reason my loving wife to me to do so after I sent her a nice Christmassy picture of a huge tarantula spider crawling across a Santa hat ... :twisted: :lol:
It's Christmas in Menzobarranzan!
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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Captain_K »

PERC = (INT+WIS+DEX+3D6)/4 easy peasy
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Spot Checks…What do You do?

Post by Pilgrim »

Just to throw in my 2cps, I don't feel the act of spotting/noticing/perceiving requires an attribute of any sort, unless you refer to the character's physical eyesight, but I do feel wisdom is the best stat to use in conjunction with noticing things. Like others have said, I think this should just be a character action stated by the player.

To use the previous concealed weapon example, if a player tells me that they are searching someone for concealed weapons then they either see nothing (due to being concealed) or I describe what could possibly be an unusual bulge or something off about the clothing. It would really depend on the type of weapon and layers/type of clothing involved. Heavy clothing concealing a knife will, most often, not be seen even by observant persons, a sword on the other hand might stick out or be more noticeable due to size/bulk, by someone actively looking. A knife tucked into the boot will either be visible or not, IMO there is no in-between. Once the player indicates that the character is actively looking, and after I describe what they observe, then now I might ask for a wisdom check to discern whether or not that unusual look is a weapon or nothing of concern.

In this case wisdom is used, but not to notice something, instead it's use to puzzle out what has already been noticed.

Similarly, I do this for passive instances too. I don't have players roll to see if they notice something from the corner of their eye, either they see it or they don't. That's the reason for using surprise. ;)
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