Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by mbeacom »

jdizzy001 wrote:It's psychological. The break down of dnd DC's is pick a DC, roll a d20 add mods then compare to DC.
cnc (though the end result is the same) the process is different. Select a CL apply the players CB (prime or non-prime) then roll d20. The process makes a psychological difference, that's all.
You're right, but the difference isn't nearly as trivial as it sounds. This is something I always find interesting. So many RPGs essentially do the same thing. You roll a die or dice, in hopes of getting a result that leads to success, beating a target, coming in under a target, even or odd, matching a number, etc. But it's all effectively doing the same thing, but in different ways. Each way amounts to a different "feel". D&D has a "feel". C&C has a "feel". The feel of the game matters. In cases like this the differences can seem insignificant but it's still part of what makes a game feel right or wrong, good or bad.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by Arduin »

mbeacom wrote: You may not understand what a numeric value is. :)
That's about as likely as the sun not being hot. ;) But, as I said, there is no inflation as far as there being a difference in value. Ergo, you couldn't show a difference.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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mbeacom wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:It's psychological. The break down of dnd DC's is pick a DC, roll a d20 add mods then compare to DC.
cnc (though the end result is the same) the process is different. Select a CL apply the players CB (prime or non-prime) then roll d20. The process makes a psychological difference, that's all.
You're right, but the difference isn't nearly as trivial as it sounds. This is something I always find interesting. So many RPGs essentially do the same thing. You roll a die or dice, in hopes of getting a result that leads to success, beating a target, coming in under a target, even or odd, matching a number, etc. But it's all effectively doing the same thing, but in different ways. Each way amounts to a different "feel". D&D has a "feel". C&C has a "feel". The feel of the game matters. In cases like this the differences can seem insignificant but it's still part of what makes a game feel right or wrong, good or bad.
Exactly, the feel of it. WOTC had a two day article about the feel of dnd it was a good article. That was one of the biggest complaint about star wars when they switch to d20 from d6. It didn't feel like star wars anymore.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Arduin wrote:
mbeacom wrote: You may not understand what a numeric value is. :)
That's about as likely as the sun not being hot. ;) But, as I said, there is no inflation as far as there being a difference in value. Ergo, you couldn't show a difference.
Seems you also have a misunderstanding of how likely something is. ;)

If you use the 12/18 method, you get very different "numeric values" for prime tasks than you do by using the +6 method. The inflation comes from adding the 6 on both sides of the screen. I never said the success chances changed.

Example.
12/18 Method: Someone attempts something using a prime ability. With a challenge base of 12 and a challenge level of 3, you get a challenge class of 15. 15 is the numeric value that must be rolled against.

In the +6 method, (unless I misunderstand how you do it), the challenge base is 18 (+6 is added to the normal base of 12). So with a challenge level of 3, you get a challenge class of 21. The numeric value rolled against changes from 15 to 21. Note the difference in numeric values. 15 and 21 are different numeric values. The fact the player ALSO adds a +6 to his/her roll means the chance for success does not change, but the numeric value have absolutely been changed and inflated unnecessarily.

So, yes. Number inflation does occur unnecessarily and yes, it does result in different numeric values.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by Treebore »

Like I have said, I like the effect of the number 6. Plus it is also statistically proven to be "significant" on a D20, and it certainly has felt significant, which I suspect is the real reason its so often debated on these forums. Personally, I love the "effect", I like that the PC's will always have several proverbial "Achilles Heel", even at high levels.

If people typical only run their games to a max of about 9th level, I would probably change it myself if I did the same, but in order to keep 10th level and above games still challenging, I am sticking with the 12/18 split.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by dunbruha »

jdizzy001 wrote:It's psychological. The break down of dnd DC's is pick a DC, roll a d20 add mods then compare to DC.
cnc (though the end result is the same) the process is different. Select a CL apply the players CB (prime or non-prime) then roll d20. The process makes a psychological difference, that's all.
mbeacom wrote:D&D has a "feel". C&C has a "feel". The feel of the game matters. In cases like this the differences can seem insignificant but it's still part of what makes a game feel right or wrong, good or bad.
Huh. I never have considered this as part of the "feel" of C&C. For me, what makes C&C unique is the use of all of the attributes for saves and ability checks, and the the use of the primes (however they are applied numerically) to allow different types of characters. I have always had the players add the prime bonus to their d20 roll and tell me the total, and I have never thought that it felt "wrong". Perhaps at your gaming table I would see it differently...

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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dunbruha wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:It's psychological. The break down of dnd DC's is pick a DC, roll a d20 add mods then compare to DC.
cnc (though the end result is the same) the process is different. Select a CL apply the players CB (prime or non-prime) then roll d20. The process makes a psychological difference, that's all.
mbeacom wrote:D&D has a "feel". C&C has a "feel". The feel of the game matters. In cases like this the differences can seem insignificant but it's still part of what makes a game feel right or wrong, good or bad.
Huh. I never have considered this as part of the "feel" of C&C. For me, what makes C&C unique is the use of all of the attributes for saves and ability checks, and the the use of the primes (however they are applied numerically) to allow different types of characters. I have always had the players add the prime bonus to their d20 roll and tell me the total, and I have never thought that it felt "wrong". Perhaps at your gaming table I would see it differently...
That's the thing about "feel" it's very subjective. Some people think the percentile system that was in D&D is a feel they have to have or they're not playing a real RPG. Or that the 12/18 split is a huge part of how C&C feels. Others who play could use 10/15 or 12/15/18 and never think the game feels different. "Feel" is very squishy and maybe just good for hippies. :)
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by dunbruha »

Treebore wrote:Like I have said, I like the effect of the number 6. Plus it is also statistically proven to be "significant" on a D20...
There is nothing statistically "significant" about the results of a d20 roll. This was often stated early on in the game's history, and maybe that is where you are remembering it from, but there is no truth to it.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Treebore wrote: Plus it is also statistically proven to be "significant" on a D20,
No it hasn't. Show said "proof".
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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mbeacom wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:It's psychological. The break down of dnd DC's is pick a DC, roll a d20 add mods then compare to DC.
cnc (though the end result is the same) the process is different. Select a CL apply the players CB (prime or non-prime) then roll d20. The process makes a psychological difference, that's all.
mbeacom wrote:D&D has a "feel". C&C has a "feel". The feel of the game matters. In cases like this the differences can seem insignificant but it's still part of what makes a game feel right or wrong, good or bad.
Huh. I never have considered this as part of the "feel" of C&C. For me, what makes C&C unique is the use of all of the attributes for saves and ability checks, and the the use of the primes (however they are applied numerically) to allow different types of characters. I have always had the players add the prime bonus to their d20 roll and tell me the total, and I have never thought that it felt "wrong". Perhaps at your gaming table I would see it differently...
That's the thing about "feel" it's very subjective. Some people think the percentile system that was in D&D is a feel they have to have or they're not playing a real RPG. Or that the 12/18 split is a huge part of how C&C feels. Others who play could use 10/15 or 12/15/18 and never think the game feels different. "Feel" is very squishy and maybe just good for hippies. :)
I'm not a hippie. I'm 100% on the other end of the spectrum (just saying =D). But yes, feel is very subjective. For example, some folks took to D20 star wars like it was nothing. Star Wars is star wars. To me, however, when you take the 12/18 (CB) split out, CnC becomes DnD 2.5E. If that is how you want to play, that is your choice. CnC is built to be flexible and dare I say, modular. In fact, I believe the 18 +/-6 is one of the rule alternatives listed in the CKG.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by FXR1979 »

I use the 15/+5 rule set in Amazing Adventures. It's simple and efficient. I don't care if it's D&D-ish, especially since C&C is a d20 fantasy game whose mechanics are all inspired by D&D.

I found it very confusing to have to systematically call two different target numbers each time I announce a roll which has to be made by more than one PC.

Also, I found that having a CB18 makes it more or less impossible for a character to succeed a given test.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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jdizzy001 wrote:I believe the 18 +/-6 is one of the rule alternatives listed in the CKG.
It's not a rule alternative in the CKG. It is an alternate math explanation. A rule alternative is when you use a different game mechanic rule.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Arduin wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:I believe the 18 +/-6 is one of the rule alternatives listed in the CKG.
It's not a rule alternative in the CKG. It is an alternate math explanation. A rule alternative is when you use a different game mechanic rule.
Actually, they do refer to it as a different rule in the CKG where it's mentioned. Technically, it is an alternate rule, because you're changing the challenge base from RAW to something you prefer. Maybe call it a gameplay alternative if you don't like the trolls language. It's really more of a house rule than anything, just a different way of doing something within the game. It's the same as ascending vs. descending armor class (creating the same hit probabilities). They both do the same thing but by using different......numeric values. ;)
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Call it what you will, it's dndish. 4e resolves their actions the same way. Select a DC, roll d20, add ability mod, add 1/2 your level (cnc adds whole level), then add 5 if the skill is "trained" (cnc would call it prime). Again, there is nothing wrong with it. Just different strokes for different folks is all.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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jdizzy001 wrote:Call it what you will, it's dndish. 4e resolves their actions the same way. Select a DC, roll d20, add ability mod, add 1/2 your level (cnc adds whole level), then add 5 if the skill is "trained" (cnc would call it prime). Again, there is nothing wrong with it. Just different strokes for different folks is all.
This is correct. When speaking of resolution techniques, there is a definite difference and to some, a difference in feel. You can't really dispute that even if it doesn't matter to you personally. As i said above, this is similar to ascending and descending armor class values. The end results is the same, but how you get there is different.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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FXR1979 wrote:I use the 15/+5 rule set in Amazing Adventures. It's simple and efficient. I don't care if it's D&D-ish, especially since C&C is a d20 fantasy game whose mechanics are all inspired by D&D.

I found it very confusing to have to systematically call two different target numbers each time I announce a roll which has to be made by more than one PC.

Also, I found that having a CB18 makes it more or less impossible for a character to succeed a given test.
Why would you call 2 TNs? I call one Challenge Level and let the players figure it out if they succeeded or not. The players have to do all the work.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Rigon wrote:
FXR1979 wrote:I use the 15/+5 rule set in Amazing Adventures. It's simple and efficient. I don't care if it's D&D-ish, especially since C&C is a d20 fantasy game whose mechanics are all inspired by D&D.

I found it very confusing to have to systematically call two different target numbers each time I announce a roll which has to be made by more than one PC.

Also, I found that having a CB18 makes it more or less impossible for a character to succeed a given test.
Why would you call 2 TNs? I call one Challenge Level and let the players figure it out if they succeeded or not. The players have to do all the work.

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I've used a similar method and it worked well in those situations where 2 players are trying something and one is prime and one is not. I also have pretty strict rules about letting multiple people try the same thing. In many cases, we deem the results of the first attempt final. In other cases, it gets harder as more people attempt it.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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jdizzy001 wrote:Call it what you will, it's dndish.
It's also C&Cish, Travellerish, et al. :roll:
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Rigon wrote:Why would you call 2 TNs? I call one Challenge Level and let the players figure it out if they succeeded or not. The players have to do all the work.
Sometimes I like to keep the CL a secret from the players (just like I like to keep AC a mystery for as long as I can). If the players are adding the prime bonus to their roll, and announce their total, I can tell them whether they succeed or fail without having to reveal the CL.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by Rigon »

dunbruha wrote:
Rigon wrote:Why would you call 2 TNs? I call one Challenge Level and let the players figure it out if they succeeded or not. The players have to do all the work.
Sometimes I like to keep the CL a secret from the players (just like I like to keep AC a mystery for as long as I can). If the players are adding the prime bonus to their roll, and announce their total, I can tell them whether they succeed or fail without having to reveal the CL.
You could also do that by just having them announce their rolls and whether or not it is prime. But anyway you do it is right. It's just a matter of taste.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Arduin wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:Call it what you will, it's dndish.
It's also C&Cish, Travellerish, et al. :roll:
True, but when I play cnc I like it to feel different than dnd or traveller. Likewise, when I play dnd I don't want it to feel like cnc. That is why d20 star wars lost a lot of d6 fans when they made the switch. All the die hard d6ers felt like they were playing space dnd and that did not appeal to them. For some people the feel isn't important, but for me, it really sets the mood. If I bust open a game of Mouseguard I do not want to see d20's and +6 modifiers to my rolls because it is prime. Likewise, when I bust open cnc I prefer to see the 12/18 split and I don't want to see handfuls of d6's. However, if someone could find a way to merge Mousegaurd's conflict resolution into cnc that I might like to see. However, then I wouldn't be playing cnc. I'd be playing Burning Wheel.

Alright, so, in order not to derail the topic here, the 12/18 split discussion is in the CKG. Some people like 12/18, some people like 18 +6, some enjoy 12/15/18, and others still enjoy 15 +5. It all depends on ck preference. Using a different spread like a 10/15 will alter your PC's power level. If that is what you want, by all means go for it. Changing the split to 15/21 will also change the PC's power level. If you want to do it, go for it. It's cnc, the master game of house rules.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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jdizzy001 wrote:Alright, so, in order not to derail the topic here, the 12/18 split discussion is in the CKG. Some people like 12/18, some people like 18 +6, some enjoy 12/15/18, and others still enjoy 15 +5. It all depends on ck preference. Using a different spread like a 10/15 will alter your PC's power level. If that is what you want, by all means go for it. Changing the split to 15/21 will also change the PC's power level. If you want to do it, go for it. It's cnc, the master game of house rules.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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jdizzy001 wrote:Alright, so, in order not to derail the topic here, the 12/18 split discussion is in the CKG. Some people like 12/18, some people like 18 +6, some enjoy 12/15/18, and others still enjoy 15 +5. It all depends on ck preference. Using a different spread like a 10/15 will alter your PC's power level. If that is what you want, by all means go for it. Changing the split to 15/21 will also change the PC's power level. If you want to do it, go for it. It's cnc, the master game of house rules.
True. But I still haven't really heard why 12/18 is more "fantasy" and 10/15 is more "pulp". There are plenty of examples from both genres of ordinary folks doing heroic things, as well as extraordinary folks doing extraordinary things... Why is it easier [gamewise, using 10/15] to do "pulpy" things?

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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dunbruha wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:Alright, so, in order not to derail the topic here, the 12/18 split discussion is in the CKG. Some people like 12/18, some people like 18 +6, some enjoy 12/15/18, and others still enjoy 15 +5. It all depends on ck preference. Using a different spread like a 10/15 will alter your PC's power level. If that is what you want, by all means go for it. Changing the split to 15/21 will also change the PC's power level. If you want to do it, go for it. It's cnc, the master game of house rules.
True. But I still haven't really heard why 12/18 is more "fantasy" and 10/15 is more "pulp". There are plenty of examples from both genres of ordinary folks doing heroic things, as well as extraordinary folks doing extraordinary things... Why is it easier [gamewise, using 10/15] to do "pulpy" things?
I would imagine that it isn't so much that 12/18 is more fantasy and 10/15 is more pulpy I think part of it is how the two games use the different systems.
Take the Arcanist from amazing adventures, if you pick a int bas Arcanist and (s)he wants to cast lightning bolt (s)he has to make a successful int check with a cl of 3, so if they picked int as a prime and have say a +2 for a modifiyer and are level five then they have to roll higher than a 6 to cast the spell succesfully, if they fail the roll they take 1d4 subdual damage and have wasted the MEP and the round

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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I just make it up as I go along.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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Dracyian wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
jdizzy001 wrote:Alright, so, in order not to derail the topic here, the 12/18 split discussion is in the CKG. Some people like 12/18, some people like 18 +6, some enjoy 12/15/18, and others still enjoy 15 +5. It all depends on ck preference. Using a different spread like a 10/15 will alter your PC's power level. If that is what you want, by all means go for it. Changing the split to 15/21 will also change the PC's power level. If you want to do it, go for it. It's cnc, the master game of house rules.
True. But I still haven't really heard why 12/18 is more "fantasy" and 10/15 is more "pulp". There are plenty of examples from both genres of ordinary folks doing heroic things, as well as extraordinary folks doing extraordinary things... Why is it easier [gamewise, using 10/15] to do "pulpy" things?
I would imagine that it isn't so much that 12/18 is more fantasy and 10/15 is more pulpy I think part of it is how the two games use the different systems.
Take the Arcanist from amazing adventures, if you pick a int bas Arcanist and (s)he wants to cast lightning bolt (s)he has to make a successful int check with a cl of 3, so if they picked int as a prime and have say a +2 for a modifiyer and are level five then they have to roll higher than a 6 to cast the spell succesfully, if they fail the roll they take 1d4 subdual damage and have wasted the MEP and the round
and I am very pleased at how similar that is in AA to how I have had it in my House Rules for C&C since the beginning. I just don't do the damage, they just lose the spell, unless they roll a 1 on their check.
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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by dunbruha »

Dracyian wrote:I would imagine that it isn't so much that 12/18 is more fantasy and 10/15 is more pulpy I think part of it is how the two games use the different systems.
Take the Arcanist from amazing adventures, if you pick a int bas Arcanist and (s)he wants to cast lightning bolt (s)he has to make a successful int check with a cl of 3, so if they picked int as a prime and have say a +2 for a modifiyer and are level five then they have to roll higher than a 6 to cast the spell succesfully, if they fail the roll they take 1d4 subdual damage and have wasted the MEP and the round
Ah, that makes sense. In order for the spell check system to work, the CB had to be lowered, with a collateral effect of making SIEGE checks easier overall.

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

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dunbruha wrote:
Dracyian wrote:I would imagine that it isn't so much that 12/18 is more fantasy and 10/15 is more pulpy I think part of it is how the two games use the different systems.
Take the Arcanist from amazing adventures, if you pick a int bas Arcanist and (s)he wants to cast lightning bolt (s)he has to make a successful int check with a cl of 3, so if they picked int as a prime and have say a +2 for a modifiyer and are level five then they have to roll higher than a 6 to cast the spell succesfully, if they fail the roll they take 1d4 subdual damage and have wasted the MEP and the round
Ah, that makes sense. In order for the spell check system to work, the CB had to be lowered, with a collateral effect of making SIEGE checks easier overall.
The real danger was the socialite, I think by campaigns end when she added in her buff it was an additional plus 3 to all attribute checks. But that was balanced out by damage guns are insane and there is no such thing as magic cure all potions and scrolls

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by Maliloki »

So, I haven't had a chance to play C&C yet, got the books from the most recent sale (which was a really good sale, got lots of stuff). But I read through the books and was thinking that I might try doing this:

CB of 15
Modifiers of 0-10+ like normal
You roll 2d20 and take the highest for primary attributes
You add your level for things relating to your class or background or anything else that you should be good at. (and saving throws)
You add 1/2 your level to most other things
You don't add anything except your attribute bonus to checks when you're attempting a different classes skill/ability.

Determining the final difficulty is done like normal with things being more difficult for some characters based on their class and background and easier for others if it should be easier for them to do.

Any thoughts? Be gentle, I'm new

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Re: Challenge Base 12/18 vs 10/15 vs ??

Post by PeelSeel2 »

Maliloki wrote:So, I haven't had a chance to play C&C yet, got the books from the most recent sale (which was a really good sale, got lots of stuff). But I read through the books and was thinking that I might try doing this:

CB of 15
Modifiers of 0-10+ like normal
You roll 2d20 and take the highest for primary attributes
You add your level for things relating to your class or background or anything else that you should be good at. (and saving throws)
You add 1/2 your level to most other things
You don't add anything except your attribute bonus to checks when you're attempting a different classes skill/ability.

Determining the final difficulty is done like normal with things being more difficult for some characters based on their class and background and easier for others if it should be easier for them to do.

Any thoughts? Be gentle, I'm new
I read somewhere that the 2d20 take the highest is akin to a +3 bonus, so that should work rather elegantly.

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