Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
User avatar
Greyblade
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:53 am
Location: Paris, Wastri's homeland

Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Greyblade »

Simple question really,

If a wizard finds/borrow a spellbook from an illusionist (and vice-versa), can he learn/copy the spells common to the two classes if there are any in said spellbook.

Given that both types of magic are said to be very different, what's your take on the matter?
Durka durka Muhammad djihad

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Greyblade wrote:Simple question really,

If a wizard finds/borrow a spellbook from an illusionist (and vice-versa), can he learn/copy the spells common to the two classes if there are any in said spellbook.

Given that both types of magic are said to be very different, what's your take on the matter?
Nope. Different classes, different spells, even when they have the same name. It is different than 3.x's Wizard specialists...
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Rigon »

I'd say yes,as long as the spell appears on both spell lists. I figure the "languages" are similar enough that the spell would be understandable to both.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Omote »

For me, different spells for a different class. In my estimation, they are not able to cross between the classes because some of the illusionist spells are of even a different level than the same spell for wizards. Two different classes. Two different types of spells. Not interchangeable.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

The reference is page 50 of the PHB. It states that the languages used for spells by Wizards & Illusionists are unique for each. Not similar at all.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:The reference is page 50 of the PHB. It states that the languages used for spells by Wizards & Illusionists are unique for each. Not similar at all.
English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:The reference is page 50 of the PHB. It states that the languages used for spells by Wizards & Illusionists are unique for each. Not similar at all.
English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.

R-

Now you are just babbling.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:The reference is page 50 of the PHB. It states that the languages used for spells by Wizards & Illusionists are unique for each. Not similar at all.
English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.

R-

Now you are just babbling.
I was just giving a real world analogy to this made up question. No need to get rude.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Snoring Rock »

Omote wrote:For me, different spells for a different class. In my estimation, they are not able to cross between the classes because some of the illusionist spells are of even a different level than the same spell for wizards. Two different classes. Two different types of spells. Not interchangeable.

~O
I must concur.

User avatar
Dracyian
Unkbartig
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:22 pm
Location: Eastern Wisconsin

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Dracyian »

It was always my thought that they were cast in completely different manner since they were targeting difference energies and responses

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

Completely different by the PH, so no, they can't use each others spells by the book.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Buttmonkey »

Nope. Chocolate and peanut butter don't mix in this case. And, for what it's worth, I can assure you that I can't read German even though I am fluent in English.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
mmbutter
Red Cap
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:28 pm

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by mmbutter »

Rigon wrote:English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.
English is a derivative of German (it's a "Germanic language"). The real world equivalent would be more like comparing German and Mandarin.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

mmbutter wrote:
Rigon wrote:English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.
English is a derivative of German (it's a "Germanic language"). The real world equivalent would be more like comparing German and Mandarin.

Even so, I am finding it hard as hell to learn German. I do agree your analogy is better for comparing Wizardry spell language to Illusionist spell language, though.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

mmbutter wrote:
Rigon wrote:English and German are unique languages, yet very similar, so your argument is invalid.
English is a derivative of German (it's a "Germanic language"). The real world equivalent would be more like comparing German and Mandarin.
Basque & English would also be an apt comparison.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

PeelSeel2
Ulthal
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Wayne, NE

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by PeelSeel2 »

Read Magic....

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

PeelSeel2 wrote:Read Magic....
Doesn't help. Same as a wizard using read magic on a cleric spell scroll. Still can't learn or cast the spell. It is not only that it is magic. It is different magic than the wizard can wield.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Captain_K »

Yet a thief or a Bard could read and cast either.. but "impossible" for the Wizard to try an Illusionist spell?

Like all Fantasy stuff, let them try, set a challenge (decipher script implies something < -10), one spell level increase going from one class to the other, or some other "fun" obstacle that makes it "not a simple read" or "hey let's spell book swap over beers" and have fun with it. For me, "fun" is spelled "A Chance for Ugly Spell Failure".

Illusionists have always been tough for many and the forums show its still the case, so letting wizards "dip" into that area slowly, one spell at a time, or vice versa could encourage both classes to greater deeds.

Just a thought, Happy New Year.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Kirk_O wrote:Yet a thief or a Bard could read and cast either.. but "impossible" for the Wizard to try an Illusionist spell?
Nope. Not from a spell book. In C&C at least.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

Kirk_O wrote:Yet a thief or a Bard could read and cast either.. but "impossible" for the Wizard to try an Illusionist spell?

Like all Fantasy stuff, let them try, set a challenge (decipher script implies something < -10), one spell level increase going from one class to the other, or some other "fun" obstacle that makes it "not a simple read" or "hey let's spell book swap over beers" and have fun with it. For me, "fun" is spelled "A Chance for Ugly Spell Failure".

Illusionists have always been tough for many and the forums show its still the case, so letting wizards "dip" into that area slowly, one spell at a time, or vice versa could encourage both classes to greater deeds.

Just a thought, Happy New Year.

and they can only try with great difficulty. Without looking I believe it has a base -10 to overcome. At least for the Thief. I agree it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a Wizard to try to "Decipher" Illusionist spells, and vice versa, but I also agree that would be a house rule.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:

and they can only try with great difficulty. Without looking I believe it has a base -10 to overcome. At least for the Thief. I agree it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a Wizard to try to "Decipher" Illusionist spells, and vice versa, but I also agree that would be a house rule.

Actually, they can only read what the spell is, not cast it. Same as a Wizard looking at an Illusionist spell.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote:

and they can only try with great difficulty. Without looking I believe it has a base -10 to overcome. At least for the Thief. I agree it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a Wizard to try to "Decipher" Illusionist spells, and vice versa, but I also agree that would be a house rule.

Actually, they can only read what the spell is, not cast it. Same as a Wizard looking at an Illusionist spell.
Just reread it for the Thief and Bard. You are correct for the Thief, but it says the Bard can then also "use" it.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote:

and they can only try with great difficulty. Without looking I believe it has a base -10 to overcome. At least for the Thief. I agree it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a Wizard to try to "Decipher" Illusionist spells, and vice versa, but I also agree that would be a house rule.

Actually, they can only read what the spell is, not cast it. Same as a Wizard looking at an Illusionist spell.
Just reread it for the Thief and Bard. You are correct for the Thief, but it says the Bard can then also "use" it.

Correct. The Bard class has that as a special ability. I had forgotten that unique ability.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Greyblade
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:53 am
Location: Paris, Wastri's homeland

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Greyblade »

Happy new year all!

Thanks for all your answers, well at least we know now that the majority is mostly against shared spells for illusionists & wizards. I was leaning that way too anyway.

Thanks!
Durka durka Muhammad djihad

muneshige
Skobbit
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:17 am

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by muneshige »

The Illusionist is an oddity among classes. I am a bit surprised honestly that it is even put into the book as a class. The issue is really that it doesn't feel to be using a uniquely different spell-casting tradition.

Comparing Illusionist to Wizard, it feels quite a lot like a Fighter who can use axes and only uses axes but then excels at using axes compared to a Fighter who can use every weapon. It would be an odd fit for a class, do you not think? And why the choice of axe of all things to be the only sort of Specialist Fighter? Just because Dwarfs and Orcs prefer them? Is that really reason enough?

And then saying that this Axe Specialist cannot teach an Axe technique to a Fighter even if the Fighter would normally have access to that technique. And, yes, I know there are no "weapon techniques"-- though in some ways it does feel a bit weird that the sort of attack a person with a weapon tries to use is determined randomly while Spell-casters get all the choices in the world limited only by their imagination, but that's another conversation entirely-- point is that IF there were Axe Techniques what would really prevent the Axe Specialist from teaching the technique a general Fighter? Because they use different "styles"? Surely it could still be incorporated. Fighting styles are not rigid lines that cannot be crossed.

Are they tapping into different sorts of energies? Well, if they are both carrying around books, they both need to memorize spells from their books every day, the spells disappear from their mind after casting them for no right-headed reason beyond that's the weird way someone 40 years ago decided to have it work and they both need to be taught by a teacher or by collecting an old document on how to do it in order to gain more spells... well... it sure sounds a lot like they are using the exact same technique and tapping into the same energy to me.


There are ways classes could be separated in such a way that they would not overlap. But then the way the spells are cast need to be quite different. I can think of several different ways to do spell-casters that would clearly be different from Wizard and it would be immediately obvious why they cannot share powers.

Person A speaks to otherworldly beings and the 'spells' she uses are in fact favors granted to her by those beings.
Person B has a body brimming with magical energies and can tap into that well within his soul, he just needs to focus it using some object or it will come out all scatter-shot and useless.
Person C has learned from an oral tradition that has been passed down through the ages. He knows the spells he knows, but every time he casts a spell it uses up the mana field around him and tires him out. Eventually he really needs to sleep before he can cast again.
Person D has the ability to read people's emotions and even thoughts, can even invade other people's minds and alter their feelings and thoughts much the way someone might alter clay confusing or even controlling them with enough practice.
Person E crafts special runes that contain magical powers. One has to know how to use the rune correctly in order to utilize it, but assuming one has the training each rune can be used to cast a very potent spell once and only once before it crumbles.

Those would all serve better as alternatives to the Wizard than the Illusionist does. The issue is that the Illusionist is just not functionally different enough from the Wizard for it to really make any sense that the Illusionist cannot teach the Wizard with a proper skill level their spells in much the same way the Axe specialist could almost certainly teach a technique to a general Fighter with proper skill. If one really wants there to be a hard and clear line why this can't or shouldn't be the case, then maybe the Illusionist ought to be altered so that they use one of the other alternative spell-casting methods I listed above or something else entirely that isn't exactly like the Wizard step-by-step, word-for-word.

But then... perhaps a better question to ask would be... what precisely would be the downside to allowing the Illusionist and Wizard to share spells so long as they have the ability to learn those same spells themselves? What is the danger involved that would cause one to give a hard line "no" answer to this question?

In the very least it seems like a case where the best rule of thumb would be to say "It is up to the DM. If it makes things run smoother for everyone involved, they can. If the DM feels as though this will create real problems, they can't."

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

muneshige wrote:
Are they tapping into different sorts of energies?
Yes, different energy and different method of manipulation that they supposedly spend YEARS and YEARS learning. So, a wizard CAN learn to use illusionist spells. All he/she has to do is pick up that class as a multi-class. Doing that represents the time and energy used in learning the new type of magic.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, I look at illusions tapping into the mind and eventually the planes of light (Phantasmal spells) and Shadow (pretty obvious which spells go here), where as the Wizard knows a few of these tricks in their own way, but are far more focused on manipulating other kinds of energies. So the methodologies for these two paths actually vary greatly enough to be their own "class". Besides, I started gaming with 1E, so am used to their always being a Illusionist. It didn't make much sense to me then, but a reason can be created. Of course, back when the Illusionist only had 7 levels of spells to master, it made even more sense as to why they were totally different classes, since Wizards have always had 9 levels to master. I've actually thought about House Ruling the 1E spell progression into my C&C games, but obviously not yet.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Captain_K »

Thanks for pointing out that Bards can read and USE, with a -10 to the roll, Wizard or Illusionist Spells when on a scroll where Thieves can only get the general meaning of the spell on the scroll (thus know what they will be fencing). This further answers my question on a different thread, "Why are not Bards better at "Decipher Script" than Thieves?", well they are fundamentally better at it with deeper understanding and only Bards can cast, but both have -10 to get the ball rolling, ... I assume this was INTENDED and not a simple type-o, because with just a few words the Thief could cast too, similar to higher editions of DnD. Is this an Errata?

I do not have the CKG (yet), but my old DnD memory is, "..if you found a spell book you could read out of it like a scroll but then it fried the spell in the book, something the owner of the book would not do lightly.. but that stray memory is from years ago and could be wrong or our own house rule for found books.

Anyway, CnC general opinion says, no learning, too different, despite being both arcane magic, but Bards can cast both from scrolls. Could a Wizard use an Illusionist scroll then?

I like the simple option to say, "House Rule: You can be taught, but one level penalty to the spell unless the PH specifically and already makes it a spell of the same level." When Wizard to Cleric use same spell normally its two level difference. The above is NOT a well thought out true answer, just an option that this lovely game allows. This is why I love CnC, basic structure, mold to fit as you need. You want a Gnomish Illusionist (Class and a Half) Paladin (with a sense of humor) on a Badger trying to read and learn the BLINK spell from a recently found Wizard's spell book in his down time, well, you could do it or at least think about allowing it in CnC without too much effort.

Great thread, well thought out and somewhat passionate opinions on the rules and physical laws of Illusionist vs Wizard Magic... to me, its MAGIC, so we can do as our KC tells us and darn well better like it! ;}
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Treebore »

Nope. Not a mistake. Its meant to emulate how they had to be about 10th level in 1E AD&D to use scrolls reliably. Actually, I think its at all. I'd have to look.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Wizard/illusionist spellbooks

Post by Arduin »

Kirk_O wrote:Could a Wizard use an Illusionist scroll then?
Not per the rules. As to your spell book Q. In the CKG there is an optional rule to read a spell from a spell book. Wipes the spell plus possibly others written adjacent in the book...
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Post Reply