Dragons

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Lobo316
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Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

I'm trying to design what I am calling a "feral" dragon. That is, I'm trying to make a dragon that is more a force of nature, then a spell casting intelligence. Something more of an animial intelligence (though a very cunning animal). Not even sure I'd want 'em to speak. I don't want this to a be creature they "reason" with, this is a force that comes at them, hard and fast or stalks them like a lion or a tiger...a large, very smart, intelligent predator.

So, I'm thinking of (for this feral concept) dropping the spell casting ability of a dragon, and instead altering this rule....

Special Rules for Dragon Combat: Dragons do not add their full hit dice when making attack rolls; a dragon adds one-half of its hit dice to attack rolls. Dragons do, however, add their full hit dice to saving throw rolls, plus the bonus set forth in the age chart.

I'm still not even sure way we have this rule, other than simply game balance (dragons are scary enough) but if I dropped the spell casting, add said ferals gain a bonus to attack rolls (at least melee attack rolls, not wing buffets, etc) would you consider that a "fair trade off"?

I'm thinking of a bonus based on the catagory of the dragon (to tie it in with the M&T rules)....

Cat 1-3 gains a +1 on melee attacks
Cat 4-9 gains a +2 on melee attacks
Cat 10-12 gain a +3 on melee attacks

So a feral dragons melee attacks become 1/2 HD (I'm assuming we round down on this) + the age Catagory (thus a level 8 feral dragon would have a base of +6 (instead of +4) to melee attacks.

Thoughts on that? Any other suggestions, ideas to share or feedback?

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Re: Dragons

Post by Snoring Rock »

I have never found that a dragon's spell-casting ability has made that big of a difference in my C&C version games. But I like the brute dragon idea.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Treebore »

I got rid of the "special rule" from day one. You fight a dragon you better be expecting to die. I have yet to find the spell abilities to be much of a factor as well.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

Glad to hear I'm not the only who that 1/2 level thing bothers, lol. It just seems so arbitrary. There is no good reason for it.

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Lobo316
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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

So, if a dragon uses its breath weapon, is that its only attack for the round? I can breath, then do claw, bite and tail, can it?

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Re: Dragons

Post by Arduin »

Lobo316 wrote:So, if a dragon uses its breath weapon, is that its only attack for the round? I can breath, then do claw, bite and tail, can it?

Not to my knowledge. But, they can only use Breath Weapon once per turn (60 seconds) 6 combat rounds. I was just glancing at the Black Dragon. Insect Plague. Nasty stuff. Prevents all spell casting in its huge area of effect.
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Re: Dragons

Post by Rigon »

Lobo316 wrote:So, if a dragon uses its breath weapon, is that its only attack for the round? I can breath, then do claw, bite and tail, can it?
Btb, I don't believe it is covered, but I'd have to look. However, I would not allow it. Dragons are scary enough.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Fizz »

I've oft-wondered if the rule was there to account for the fact that d20 had attack and AC modifiers for size. Dragons have always had a special set of rules. So C&C made some special rules for dragons too. And since they had some special rules for dragons anyways, they decided to add the half-HD rule as a cheap and dirty way of accounting for size.

I could be wrong, but i don't know else they'd have added that rule otherwise.

Actually, size modifiers is one of the few things from d20 that i like. But seems odd to do it just for one monster (if that is in fact the intent).


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Re: Dragons

Post by kreider204 »

Lobo, have you checked out the "lesser" dragons in M&ToA? Good stuff, and perhaps along the lines that you're looking for. Not as magical - and, interestingly, do indeed add their full HD to attack rolls and saves.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Aladar »

If I remember correctly, one of the Trolls said they did 1/2 level because during play testing the full level bonus made the dragons way too powerful for players to handle.
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Re: Dragons

Post by Aladar »

If I remember correctly, one of the Trolls said they did 1/2 level because during play testing the full level bonus made the dragons way too powerful for players to handle.
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Re: Dragons

Post by Aladar »

Sorry, this double posted for some reason.
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Re: Dragons

Post by Fizz »

As for lesser dragons... wyverns work pretty well, do they not? Aside from them missing two feet of course...

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Re: Dragons

Post by Treebore »

Aladar wrote:If I remember correctly, one of the Trolls said they did 1/2 level because during play testing the full level bonus made the dragons way too powerful for players to handle.
Which is how I want it. You take on a dragon, you will know your in for the fight of your life. Unless, of course, they cast Charm Monster, over come the SR, and I roll a 1 for their frikkin save. Then it becomes disgusting.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Dragons

Post by Captain_K »

Feral implies "wild". Not speaking, no magic implies less intelligent? Long lived or short? Unable to speak as we know it, unable to cast magic as we know it but a dragon seems like a "magical beast"? Call it dumb, call it wild, call it just plain "too angry to speak to its meal". If it is not magical, can it fly? Is it a dinosaur?

Is it colored per the "wheel" aka evil or metallic aka good... enough getting you to ponder the "dragoness of your new dragon".. here's my 10 min "feral dragon":
1) Neutral in alignment, with natural coloring (pick your favorite snake, add a rattle or venom if you like, spitting venom instead of fire breath weapon or horribly infectious bites (AKA POISON) like a komodo dragon).
2) Although this dragon has vestigial wings, it cannot fly and only use them to kick up debris, display their amazing coloration (see below) or slam (aka wing buffets like normal and vision and sound and minor damage in an area - not magical - physical).
3) Long lived like some high rate reptiles, say 150 years max. (use dragon table/10).
4) Intelligence is animal to low (increasing with age, use white dragon INT/3)
5) Always hungry, always growing, then constrictor like, sleeps in some warm spot to digest a big meal - not a picky eater like a shark. High growth rate when young.
6) Due to low INT no language, expect like most animals, good communication within species via sounds, scents, displays, color changes? Wing coloration (think Peacock or Turkey). Males have better wing coloration than females.. use for mating and dominance. Highly prized for unworldly beauty, toughness, etc etc - so besides they're "tough to kill.." selling their hides and wings has value, etc etc.
7) Magic is not overt, but they have amazing "natural talents" bordering on magical in capabilities:
7a) Scent
7b) Hearing
7c) Vision - dusk or dark depending on rather you want this dude underground or above - night hunter seems good.
7d) Roar so load it does damage, deafness, in a cone.. aka breath weapon rules...
7e) Super tough hide, so good AC possibly even SR against physically damaging magic
7f) So aggressive and single minded they have bonuses against mind control, charm, etc.
7g) Based on their life style/terrain add abilities that make sense, ex water: swim, hold breath, make waves to capsize boats or knock meals off decks (think Orca).

In short you can use most of the dragon section in M&T, pick a color for basic behavior, flavor and environment then "make it natural"..

Possibly its better to call this guy the "natural" or ancient dragon, wild for runner to the Dragon of the M&T.. heck you could think of them as the Neanderthals relative to the Sapiens.. but that all Dragons revere them as their "most ancient cousins"... which would likely be the only reason they would still be around..

OK, good luck, publish to us what you finish, can't ask for help without a pay back for all...
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Traveller »

Tree, I never asked this, but in terms of power level, which do you think is better?

*Giving dragons their full level as a bonus.
*Giving dragons d20 hit dice.

Then...combine the two. :evil:

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Re: Dragons

Post by Treebore »

Traveller wrote:Tree, I never asked this, but in terms of power level, which do you think is better?

*Giving dragons their full level as a bonus.
*Giving dragons d20 hit dice.

Then...combine the two. :evil:

Only if we also make them immune to Charm/Domination. :twisted:
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Dragons

Post by Traveller »

That's actually pretty easy to pull off. Dragon belief in their superiority over all other races renders them immune to charm spells and attempts to dominate them.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Rigon »

Treebore wrote:
Aladar wrote:If I remember correctly, one of the Trolls said they did 1/2 level because during play testing the full level bonus made the dragons way too powerful for players to handle.
Which is how I want it. You take on a dragon, you will know your in for the fight of your life. Unless, of course, they cast Charm Monster, over come the SR, and I roll a 1 for their frikkin save. Then it becomes disgusting.
You can just call me Fynn the Dragon Master. ;)

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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

kreider204 wrote:Lobo, have you checked out the "lesser" dragons in M&ToA? Good stuff, and perhaps along the lines that you're looking for. Not as magical - and, interestingly, do indeed add their full HD to attack rolls and saves.
You know what, I did see those after I had posted this thread, and I am considering using one of those instead. But, I dunno, I do like Dragons, lol.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

Kirk_O wrote:Feral implies "wild". Not speaking, no magic implies less intelligent? Long lived or short? Unable to speak as we know it, unable to cast magic as we know it but a dragon seems like a "magical beast"? Call it dumb, call it wild, call it just plain "too angry to speak to its meal". If it is not magical, can it fly? Is it a dinosaur?

Is it colored per the "wheel" aka evil or metallic aka good... enough getting you to ponder the "dragoness of your new dragon".. here's my 10 min "feral dragon":
1) Neutral in alignment, with natural coloring (pick your favorite snake, add a rattle or venom if you like, spitting venom instead of fire breath weapon or horribly infectious bites (AKA POISON) like a komodo dragon).
2) Although this dragon has vestigial wings, it cannot fly and only use them to kick up debris, display their amazing coloration (see below) or slam (aka wing buffets like normal and vision and sound and minor damage in an area - not magical - physical).
3) Long lived like some high rate reptiles, say 150 years max. (use dragon table/10).
4) Intelligence is animal to low (increasing with age, use white dragon INT/3)
5) Always hungry, always growing, then constrictor like, sleeps in some warm spot to digest a big meal - not a picky eater like a shark. High growth rate when young.
6) Due to low INT no language, expect like most animals, good communication within species via sounds, scents, displays, color changes? Wing coloration (think Peacock or Turkey). Males have better wing coloration than females.. use for mating and dominance. Highly prized for unworldly beauty, toughness, etc etc - so besides they're "tough to kill.." selling their hides and wings has value, etc etc.
7) Magic is not overt, but they have amazing "natural talents" bordering on magical in capabilities:
7a) Scent
7b) Hearing
7c) Vision - dusk or dark depending on rather you want this dude underground or above - night hunter seems good.
7d) Roar so load it does damage, deafness, in a cone.. aka breath weapon rules...
7e) Super tough hide, so good AC possibly even SR against physically damaging magic
7f) So aggressive and single minded they have bonuses against mind control, charm, etc.
7g) Based on their life style/terrain add abilities that make sense, ex water: swim, hold breath, make waves to capsize boats or knock meals off decks (think Orca).

In short you can use most of the dragon section in M&T, pick a color for basic behavior, flavor and environment then "make it natural"..

Possibly its better to call this guy the "natural" or ancient dragon, wild for runner to the Dragon of the M&T.. heck you could think of them as the Neanderthals relative to the Sapiens.. but that all Dragons revere them as their "most ancient cousins"... which would likely be the only reason they would still be around..

OK, good luck, publish to us what you finish, can't ask for help without a pay back for all...
Thanks for the feedback. Interesting ideas there. I guess, what I am going for (and maybe your suggestions could help in this matter) in a dragon simliar to the ones in Reign of Fire, but we're talking one from a cold environ. Maybe even a "cursed" breed of dragon. But, we'll see, maybe I'll just go with a regular, good ol' fashioned evil dragon.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

Aladar wrote:If I remember correctly, one of the Trolls said they did 1/2 level because during play testing the full level bonus made the dragons way too powerful for players to handle.
You know, one of my players had a good observation on this...by accident or design, the 1/2 level does allow you to use a dragon has a very effective "solo" against a group of lower level characters. A 10th level dragon, going against a group of 6, 7 or 8th level character, that's 1/2 level attack makes for a interesting match-up (as opposed to feeling like you have to you a dragon of equal level, you then has trouble hitting because of the 1/2 level.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Lobo316 »

kreider204 wrote:Lobo, have you checked out the "lesser" dragons in M&ToA? Good stuff, and perhaps along the lines that you're looking for. Not as magical - and, interestingly, do indeed add their full HD to attack rolls and saves.
Also, I did notice one of the first one's listed was ice/cold themed. Don't have my book with me, but will revist that one this evening when I get home.

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