Falling Damage

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Fizz
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Fizz »

Of course, using hit points to model this isn't really fair across the classes. Hit points are more of a measure of endurance / luck / skill than of just physical toughness.

A high-level warrior has many hit points because he knows how to dodge, deflect, and not become fatigued. He's not actually taking any more stab wounds to the heart. So should a high level warrior have more ability to survive a long fall than a low level wizard?

I wouldn't think so, but that would require a very different way of handling falling damage.

-Fizz

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Lobo316
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Lobo316 »

Fizz wrote:Of course, using hit points to model this isn't really fair across the classes. Hit points are more of a measure of endurance / luck / skill than of just physical toughness.

A high-level warrior has many hit points because he knows how to dodge, deflect, and not become fatigued. He's not actually taking any more stab wounds to the heart. So should a high level warrior have more ability to survive a long fall than a low level wizard?

I wouldn't think so, but that would require a very different way of handling falling damage.

-Fizz
With that said, perhaps the RAW is fine the way it is. It's not "combat" damage...it's falling/impact damage. Not to many ways for a fighter to dodge, deflect or not become fatigued from that, :D It should be "deadly" to anyone.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Buttmonkey »

Lobo316 wrote:Just do what bmonkey said
Finally, somebody gets it! If everyone would just do whatever I tell them, the world would be a much better place. Rather than live by WWBMD (What Would Buttmonkey Do), live by WWBMTMTD (What Would Buttmonkey Tell Me To Do). :idea:
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Lobo316
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Lobo316 »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Lobo316 wrote:Just do what bmonkey said
Finally, somebody gets it! If everyone would just do whatever I tell them, the world would be a much better place. Rather than live by WWBMD (What Would Buttmonkey Do), live by WWBMTMTD (What Would Buttmonkey Tell Me To Do). :idea:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Lobo316
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Lobo316 »

Check this out. Just messing around with different ideas from this discussion...

Falling
Any class may make a saving throw for ½ damage when intentionally jumping 11-20ft. Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks making this saving throw negate the damage.

Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks may also make this saving throw for ½ damage when the jump is not intentional.

In either case, the CL for these saving throws is 1 for every 5 feet beyond 10ft (so, CL 2 for a 20 foot fall). Additionally, encumbrance also affects the CL: lightly encumbered +2, moderately encumbered +4. Heavy and overburdened automatically cause this saving throw to fail.


Thoughts?

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Arduin
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Arduin »

Lobo316 wrote: It's not "combat" damage...it's falling/impact damage. Not to many ways for a fighter to dodge, deflect or not become fatigued from that, :D It should be "deadly" to anyone.

Neither is there a way to get out of damage when you are standing in the middle of a huge fireball. Yet, it's not deadly to really high level characters while melting metal. Consistency is important. ;)
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Traveller
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

Lobo316 wrote:Check this out. Just messing around with different ideas from this discussion...

Falling
Any class may make a saving throw for ½ damage when intentionally jumping 11-20ft. Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks making this saving throw negate the damage.

Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks may also make this saving throw for ½ damage when the jump is not intentional.

In either case, the CL for these saving throws is 1 for every 5 feet beyond 10ft (so, CL 2 for a 20 foot fall). Additionally, encumbrance also affects the CL: lightly encumbered +2, moderately encumbered +4. Heavy and overburdened automatically cause this saving throw to fail.


Thoughts?
It's not as if I'd ever use it myself, but this rule is actually rather elegant. It makes small falls easier to survive without making large falls ridiculous. And to cap things off, you didn't even need to figure in the air velocity of an unladen swallow to do it. :)

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by dunbruha »

Lobo316 wrote:Check this out. Just messing around with different ideas from this discussion...

Falling
Any class may make a saving throw for ½ damage when intentionally jumping 11-20ft. Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks making this saving throw negate the damage.

Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks may also make this saving throw for ½ damage when the jump is not intentional.

In either case, the CL for these saving throws is 1 for every 5 feet beyond 10ft (so, CL 2 for a 20 foot fall). Additionally, encumbrance also affects the CL: lightly encumbered +2, moderately encumbered +4. Heavy and overburdened automatically cause this saving throw to fail.


Thoughts?
What would the save be based on? For short falls, it would make sense for it to be DEX. But for longer falls, maybe CON?

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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

If you really must know some "facts", buy this paper:
Fatal falls from a height: the use of mathematical models to estimate the height of fall from the injuries sustained.
Lau G, Ooi PL, Phoon B.
Author information
Abstract
The authors undertook a review of fatal falls from a height, that occurred in 1991-92 in Singapore, with the objective of constructing mathematical models relating the height of fall to the injuries sustained. The 603 cases studied showed a mean age of 41.4 years with a male to female ratio of approximately 2:1. A sub-sample of 416 (69%) of these subjects had fallen from known heights (mean, 26.9 m; range, 3-69.6 m) and were studied in further detail. Bivariate analysis of this group showed that their injury severity score (ISS) was significantly correlated with the height of fall (H) and age (P < 0.01; r = 0.412 and 0.187, respectively). As the ISS is not strictly a continuous variable and varied markedly with H, it was categorised into bands (ISSB) before being subjected to further analysis. Regression modelling to adjust for mutual confounding showed that both height of fall and age were significant independent determinants of the ISSB (P < 0.0001). A model with H as the dependent variable was then constructed to relate the height of fall to ISSB and other statistically significant indicators of the extent and the severity of the injuries sustained. A second model with bands of height (HB) as the dependent variable was similarly constructed to assess the effect of banding both height and ISS. Our findings suggested that the height of fall was significantly associated with age, ISS and the extent of injury (mostly AIS > or = 3), and confirmed the usefulness of these models for investigative purposes. Statistical models could be designed and used to assess any apparent discrepancy between injury severity as determined at autopsy and the suspected/alleged height of fall.
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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

Wiki has 12 steps to help you live through a big fall, a great read with images, incase any of you want to test these thoughts!
Wiki also notes this: Height and severity
The severity of injury increases with the height of the fall, but also depends on body and surface features and the manner of body impacts on to the surface.[7] The chance of surviving increases if landing on the surface of high deformity (a surface that bends, moves, or compresses), such as snow or water.[7]
Overall, the height at which 50% of children die from a fall is between four and five story heights (around 40 to 50 feet or 12 to 15 meters) above the ground.[8]

***This implies 0 level kids have a 50% chance to live significant falls - i.e. linear d6 damage might be better.

Traveler: Nice job with the summation notation (n/2)*(n+1) or if your calculator has the button X!. I did mean to clearly note that in the one method 1500 feet is 150d6 and the other method was just too big to do the numbers, good job putting a number on the silliness.

Here are some thoughts:
1) Any fall, independent of height, can be survived (CK determines remaining hp and bleed out rate) with a save of Nat'l 20. This keeps in the spirit of the d20 save and it is fantasy after all. Bonuses the CK allows to this are few and might be based on class, protection, surface falling onto, luck points used, phase of the moon, etc. Make the PC work to suggest bonuses they deserve. The assumption here is the P.C. has something like -1 to -9 h.p. and is slowly bleeding out - but alive. Add some of those CKG "massive damage" injuries requiring special healing spells or months in bed.
2) Allow a more typical save, with a reasonable chance to make, all sorts of bonuses could apply and if made, the damage is converted from cumulative to linear damage.
3) Ensure the falling damage and resulting affects help the game along, screw the physics.
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Lobo316
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Lobo316 »

dunbruha wrote:
Lobo316 wrote:Check this out. Just messing around with different ideas from this discussion...

Falling
Any class may make a saving throw for ½ damage when intentionally jumping 11-20ft. Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks making this saving throw negate the damage.

Rogues, assassins, barbarians, rangers and monks may also make this saving throw for ½ damage when the jump is not intentional.

In either case, the CL for these saving throws is 1 for every 5 feet beyond 10ft (so, CL 2 for a 20 foot fall). Additionally, encumbrance also affects the CL: lightly encumbered +2, moderately encumbered +4. Heavy and overburdened automatically cause this saving throw to fail.


Thoughts?
What would the save be based on? For short falls, it would make sense for it to be DEX. But for longer falls, maybe CON?
It'd be DEX based. Anything beyond 20 feet, I wouldn't bother rolling a save for (revert to the RAW. At that point, your just taking damage).

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Traveller
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

@Captain_K: The factorial of 1500 is not 11532. A factorial is calculated through multiplication. For example, 10! would be 10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1. Cumulative falling damage utilizes addition, so 100 feet would be 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1(d6).

10! = 3,628,800. Cumulative damage for 100 feet is 55d6. Big difference.

Regarding the rest of your post, Arduin might be interested since he wants his fantasy to be real. Meanwhile I'll just soldier on with ensuring my fighters can't dust themselves off after standing up in their impact craters. Like you say, screw physics; after all it's just a game.

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Arduin
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Arduin »

I decided on 1D8 per 30'. With 10'-30' being the starter, 31'-60' 2D8 etc. Cap at 20D8 (90 h.p. average roll. Max of 160 h.p. damage) Up to 30' fall has a good chance to kill a normal human. (which is about right)
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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

Oops, your right summation notation is (n/2)*(n+1), the other is multiplication based.. WOW, now there's some fast moving damage.
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Traveller
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

The post is long since gone, but during the playtest there was a discussion regarding falling damage. I actually contemplated using factorials in it. I stopped when I realized that the damage would hit ridiculous levels very very quickly. :)

By the way, I used Excel to chart the numbers out. While I could have used my TI-89 Titanium to do the work since it has a spreadsheet function built in, Excel and the ability to cut and paste allowed me to visualize the entire progression more quickly and easily.

EDIT: 1500!, courtesy of Wolfram Alpha.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by tylermo »

What's that about an unladen swallow? Just depends..."African or European?" ;-)

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Fizz »

EDIT: 1500!, courtesy of Wolfram Alpha.
So practically infinity. The number of atoms in the observable universe is around 10 to the 100th power, if i recall.

In this light, i think 1500! damage may be too severe... heh.


-Fizz

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Fizz »

Lobo316 wrote:With that said, perhaps the RAW is fine the way it is. It's not "combat" damage...it's falling/impact damage. Not to many ways for a fighter to dodge, deflect or not become fatigued from that, :D It should be "deadly" to anyone.
Maybe the way to equalize it for all classes is to use the same hit die as the class. So a wizard suffers falling damage based on a d4. Fighter damage is based on a d10. Use whatever mechanic you currently use, just change the die type to match. This means falling is equally deadly for every class. Of course, you'd still have the problem that high level characters are more resistant to a fall.

So to fix that we can multiply all this by level. Using a simple increment (dX per 10 feet), a 5th level fighter falling from 20 feet would suffer 5*2d10 or 10d10 damage, while a 5th level wizard would suffer 5*2d4 or 10d4 damage. This schema, i think, would mean that any class of any level falling from a given height loses the same proportion of their hit total hit points.

This would be ok because it's not "combat" damage, it's "falling" damage which is equally deadly to everyone.

Just a thought...

-Fizz

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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

I'm going to attempt to summarize our thoughts:
1) Linear damage falling (house rule or incorrect interpretation of rule) is fine for short falls and moderate damage, but many do not like the ability of high hp characters walking away from high falls (laughing).
2) Cumulative damage falling (official method) is pretty tough for even short falls and is totally lethal for moderate falls with no chance to live, many do not like no chance in fantasy setting or for that matter real life "lucky people".

Many have mentioned "saves" to give a hope when using cumulative damage. Some have suggested separating combat designed class hp levels from falling damage. I think converting falling damage to HD type such that mages take d4 falls and Monks take d12 falls would be a) tough on the old dice bag limits of size and b) Monks would rightfully complain they are the only class with "Falling" as a class ability and they are taking the most damage.

The following is my (second) attempt to post some noodling on this topic - not play tested (yet) but might cover what we are discussing within the current CnC ground rules (full pun intended). I will place this in a second posting, but #4 though #8 are the meat of the "rules" worth discussing. The rest are mechanics with +/- to argue, tweak, change as needed.

Aside: Per my 3rd print PH only thief, assassin, and rangers have climbing and thus "falling" skills. Monks are the only class with true falling abilities. PS Why do folks keep putting barbarians in with these guys? PPS Why not Mage with feather fall experience?
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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

House Rules (usually assume cumulative damage is used):
1) Falling down steep slides/hills/rocky paths or through sufficient/supple tree branches should use Linear Damage.
2) All damage assumes unexpected fall onto hard surfaces and free fall with unimpeded acceleration.
3) Landing in water reduces fall height by 5' per foot of water up to 10' of water; max of -50' off fall in any depth of water.
4A) Reduce falling height for the following landing conditions/characters/skills (they are cumulative):
-5 feet loose earth or sand
-5 feet Thick vegetation/ground cover
-10 feet Bog/marsh/swampy soil (no standing water)/pile of feathers or straw
-20 feet 4th lvl+ Monk w/in 10' of wall; Monk ability is always after all other adjustments
-5 feet Acrobat, Thief, Assassin, Ranger, or Mage w/Feather Fall Spell history (not for Monks)
-5 feet Intentionally Jumped
-5 feet Padded Armor with or w/o hard exterior
-5 feet Padded Helmet with or w/o hard exterior; cumulative with body armor
4B) Increase falling height by 5' for each increasing encumbrance category (ex +20' for overburdened).
5) No Fall over 20' height can be reduced below 10' (accept Monks).
6) No Fall, after adjustments, over 100' can be walked away from due to massive single blow damage (assumes +hp after fall damage). CK uses remaining +hp to guide how far into negative hp, degree/type of damage, and bleed out rate (p 275 CKG).
7) Optional Fall Save (only w/Cumulative): DEX Save, -1/10', Only Monks add level.
Reduce Fall height by 5' for every point over the minimum required save; additive with above #4.
8) Lucky Bastard Save: If damage kills, save for life with massive damage in #6 above, NOT attribute based.
Allowed after #7, Nat'l 20 required, few bonuses (Lucky, God Fearing, Monk, etc.), PC should suggest bonuses.
9) Optional: Luck Points or Hero Points used to reduce fall height or apply to saves.
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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

*Monks (4th lvl+) remove 20' from Fall; Monk ability is always after all other adjustments
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Captain_K
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Captain_K »

OK, I give up, what formats can be uploaded onto this site? My base is excel, but NO format I've tried to upload is allowed, I've tried 20 now... I'll gladly upload or email the excel file to anyone.

The below excel table looks like crap this way:

Linear Damage (L) Cumulative Damage ( C)
Fall Dice Min Ave Max Dice Min Ave Max Commentary
Height*
(ft) (d6) 1 3.5 6 (d6) 1 3.5 6 (RW = Real World)
10 1 1 4 6 1 1 4 6 0 lvl Hurt
20 2 2 7 12 3 3 11 18 0 lvl Dead?
30 3 3 11 18 6 6 21 36 0 lvl Dead
40 4 4 14 24 10 10 35 60
50 5 5 18 30 15 15 53 90 RW 50% Survival?
60 6 6 21 36 21 21 74 126
70 7 7 25 42 28 28 98 168 C: 10 lvl Fighter Dead?
80 8 8 28 48 36 36 126 216
90 9 9 32 54 45 45 158 270
100 10 10 35 60 55 55 193 330 RW Lucky to Live?
110 11 11 39 66 66 66 231 396
120 12 12 42 72 78 78 273 468
130 13 13 46 78 91 91 319 546
140 14 14 49 84 105 105 368 630 C: 10 lvl Fighter Dead
150 15 15 53 90 120 120 420 720 C: Great God Dead?
160 16 16 56 96 136 136 476 816
170 17 17 60 102 153 153 536 918
180 18 18 63 108 171 171 599 1,026
190 19 19 67 114 190 190 665 1,140
200 20 20 70 120 210 210 735 1,260
210 21 21 74 126 231 231 809 1,386
220 22 22 77 132 253 253 886 1,518
230 23 23 81 138 276 276 966 1,656
240 24 24 84 144 300 300 1,050 1,800
250 25 25 88 150 325 325 1,138 1,950
260 26 26 91 156 351 351 1,229 2,106
270 27 27 95 162 378 378 1,323 2,268
280 28 28 98 168 406 406 1,421 2,436 C: Great God Dead
290 29 29 102 174 435 435 1,523 2,610 L: 10 lvl Fighter Dead?
300 30 30 105 180 465 465 1,628 2,790
310 31 31 109 186 496 496 1,736 2,976
320 32 32 112 192 528 528 1,848 3,168
330 33 33 116 198 561 561 1,964 3,366
340 34 34 119 204 595 595 2,083 3,570
350 35 35 123 210 630 630 2,205 3,780
360 36 36 126 216 666 666 2,331 3,996
370 37 37 130 222 703 703 2,461 4,218
380 38 38 133 228 741 741 2,594 4,446
390 39 39 137 234 780 780 2,730 4,680
400 40 40 140 240 820 820 2,870 4,920
410 41 41 144 246 861 861 3,014 5,166
420 42 42 147 252 903 903 3,161 5,418
430 43 43 151 258 946 946 3,311 5,676
440 44 44 154 264 990 990 3,465 5,940
450 45 45 158 270 1035 1,035 3,623 6,210
460 46 46 161 276 1081 1,081 3,784 6,486
470 47 47 165 282 1128 1,128 3,948 6,768
480 48 48 168 288 1176 1,176 4,116 7,056
490 49 49 172 294 1225 1,225 4,288 7,350
500 50 50 175 300 1275 1,275 4,463 7,650
510 51 51 179 306 1326 1,326 4,641 7,956
520 52 52 182 312 1378 1,378 4,823 8,268
530 53 53 186 318 1431 1,431 5,009 8,586
540 54 54 189 324 1485 1,485 5,198 8,910
550 55 55 193 330 1540 1,540 5,390 9,240
560 56 56 196 336 1596 1,596 5,586 9,576
570 57 57 200 342 1653 1,653 5,786 9,918
580 58 58 203 348 1711 1,711 5,989 10,266
590 59 59 207 354 1770 1,770 6,195 10,620
600 60 60 210 360 1830 1,830 6,405 10,980
610 61 61 214 366 1891 1,891 6,619 11,346
620 62 62 217 372 1953 1,953 6,836 11,718
630 63 63 221 378 2016 2,016 7,056 12,096
640 64 64 224 384 2080 2,080 7,280 12,480
650 65 65 228 390 2145 2,145 7,508 12,870
660 66 66 231 396 2211 2,211 7,739 13,266
670 67 67 235 402 2278 2,278 7,973 13,668
680 68 68 238 408 2346 2,346 8,211 14,076
690 69 69 242 414 2415 2,415 8,453 14,490
700 70 70 245 420 2485 2,485 8,698 14,910
710 71 71 249 426 2556 2,556 8,946 15,336
720 72 72 252 432 2628 2,628 9,198 15,768
730 73 73 256 438 2701 2,701 9,454 16,206
740 74 74 259 444 2775 2,775 9,713 16,650
750 75 75 263 450 2850 2,850 9,975 17,100
760 76 76 266 456 2926 2,926 10,241 17,556
770 77 77 270 462 3003 3,003 10,511 18,018
780 78 78 273 468 3081 3,081 10,784 18,486
790 79 79 277 474 3160 3,160 11,060 18,960
800 80 80 280 480 3240 3,240 11,340 19,440
810 81 81 284 486 3321 3,321 11,624 19,926
820 82 82 287 492 3403 3,403 11,911 20,418
830 83 83 291 498 3486 3,486 12,201 20,916
840 84 84 294 504 3570 3,570 12,495 21,420
850 85 85 298 510 3655 3,655 12,793 21,930
860 86 86 301 516 3741 3,741 13,094 22,446
870 87 87 305 522 3828 3,828 13,398 22,968
880 88 88 308 528 3916 3,916 13,706 23,496
890 89 89 312 534 4005 4,005 14,018 24,030
900 90 90 315 540 4095 4,095 14,333 24,570
910 91 91 319 546 4186 4,186 14,651 25,116
920 92 92 322 552 4278 4,278 14,973 25,668
930 93 93 326 558 4371 4,371 15,299 26,226
940 94 94 329 564 4465 4,465 15,628 26,790
950 95 95 333 570 4560 4,560 15,960 27,360
960 96 96 336 576 4656 4,656 16,296 27,936
970 97 97 340 582 4753 4,753 16,636 28,518
980 98 98 343 588 4851 4,851 16,979 29,106
990 99 99 347 594 4950 4,950 17,325 29,700
1000 100 100 350 600 5050 5,050 17,675 30,300 L: 10 lvl Fighter Dead
1010 101 101 354 606 5151 5,151 18,029 30,906
1020 102 102 357 612 5253 5,253 18,386 31,518
1030 103 103 361 618 5356 5,356 18,746 32,136
1040 104 104 364 624 5460 5,460 19,110 32,760
1050 105 105 368 630 5565 5,565 19,478 33,390
1060 106 106 371 636 5671 5,671 19,849 34,026
1070 107 107 375 642 5778 5,778 20,223 34,668
1080 108 108 378 648 5886 5,886 20,601 35,316
1090 109 109 382 654 5995 5,995 20,983 35,970
1100 110 110 385 660 6105 6,105 21,368 36,630
1110 111 111 389 666 6216 6,216 21,756 37,296
1120 112 112 392 672 6328 6,328 22,148 37,968
1130 113 113 396 678 6441 6,441 22,544 38,646
1140 114 114 399 684 6555 6,555 22,943 39,330
1150 115 115 403 690 6670 6,670 23,345 40,020 L: Great God Dead?
1160 116 116 406 696 6786 6,786 23,751 40,716
1170 117 117 410 702 6903 6,903 24,161 41,418
1180 118 118 413 708 7021 7,021 24,574 42,126
1190 119 119 417 714 7140 7,140 24,990 42,840
1200 120 120 420 720 7260 7,260 25,410 43,560
1210 121 121 424 726 7381 7,381 25,834 44,286
1220 122 122 427 732 7503 7,503 26,261 45,018
1230 123 123 431 738 7626 7,626 26,691 45,756
1240 124 124 434 744 7750 7,750 27,125 46,500
1250 125 125 438 750 7875 7,875 27,563 47,250
1260 126 126 441 756 8001 8,001 28,004 48,006
1270 127 127 445 762 8128 8,128 28,448 48,768
1280 128 128 448 768 8256 8,256 28,896 49,536
1290 129 129 452 774 8385 8,385 29,348 50,310
1300 130 130 455 780 8515 8,515 29,803 51,090
1310 131 131 459 786 8646 8,646 30,261 51,876
1320 132 132 462 792 8778 8,778 30,723 52,668
1330 133 133 466 798 8911 8,911 31,189 53,466
1340 134 134 469 804 9045 9,045 31,658 54,270
1350 135 135 473 810 9180 9,180 32,130 55,080
1360 136 136 476 816 9316 9,316 32,606 55,896
1370 137 137 480 822 9453 9,453 33,086 56,718
1380 138 138 483 828 9591 9,591 33,569 57,546
1390 139 139 487 834 9730 9,730 34,055 58,380
1400 140 140 490 840 9870 9,870 34,545 59,220
1410 141 141 494 846 10011 10,011 35,039 60,066
1420 142 142 497 852 10153 10,153 35,536 60,918
1430 143 143 501 858 10296 10,296 36,036 61,776
1440 144 144 504 864 10440 10,440 36,540 62,640
1450 145 145 508 870 10585 10,585 37,048 63,510
1460 146 146 511 876 10731 10,731 37,559 64,386
1470 147 147 515 882 10878 10,878 38,073 65,268
1480 148 148 518 888 11026 11,026 38,591 66,156
1490 149 149 522 894 11175 11,175 39,113 67,050 RW only the lucky live
1500 150 150 525 900 11325 11,325 39,638 67,950 RW Terminal Velocity
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

Host it on Google Docs and provide us a link. Message boards are notoriously bad at table formatting.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

Fizz wrote:
Lobo316 wrote:With that said, perhaps the RAW is fine the way it is. It's not "combat" damage...it's falling/impact damage. Not to many ways for a fighter to dodge, deflect or not become fatigued from that, :D It should be "deadly" to anyone.
Maybe the way to equalize it for all classes is to use the same hit die as the class. So a wizard suffers falling damage based on a d4. Fighter damage is based on a d10. Use whatever mechanic you currently use, just change the die type to match. This means falling is equally deadly for every class. Of course, you'd still have the problem that high level characters are more resistant to a fall.

So to fix that we can multiply all this by level. Using a simple increment (dX per 10 feet), a 5th level fighter falling from 20 feet would suffer 5*2d10 or 10d10 damage, while a 5th level wizard would suffer 5*2d4 or 10d4 damage. This schema, i think, would mean that any class of any level falling from a given height loses the same proportion of their hit total hit points.

This would be ok because it's not "combat" damage, it's "falling" damage which is equally deadly to everyone.

Just a thought...

-Fizz
Multiplying it like that though leads to its own issues, namely that falls from short distances are even more deadly than before. Your 5th-level fighter will suffer an average of 55 hit points damage from a 20-foot fall. Your first idea is a better one but you still have the issue of high level characters being more likely to survive a long fall. Anyway, let's rewrite the rule a little bit to take variable dice types into account.
If a character falls from a height of six to ten feet, a dexterity check must be made. if the check is successful, the person falling takes no damage. If the check is not successful, the person takes one die of damage. The die used is the same type the character rolls for hit points, thus a wizard would take 1d4 points of damage while a barbarian would take 1d12. From heights greater than 10 feet, damage accrues significantly. For every 10 feet fallen, the number of dice used for damage increases by one. The damage for each 10 feet fallen is cumulative. For example, if a fighter falls 18 feet, they take 1d10 damage for the first 10 feet and 2d10 damage for the next 10 feet for a total of 3d10 damage. If a wizard fell from a height of 45 feet, they would take 1d4 for the first 10 feet, 2d4 for the second 10 feet, 3d4 for the third 10 feet, and 4d4 damage for the last 10 feet, for a total of 10d4 points of damage.
This is indeed brutal, and it does work. But, I do understand that the game mechanic as it stands does not really cover what happens in the real world. So, how can we fix the rule to be a little more in tune with reality while keeping things simple?

Instead of the flat damage cap, impose a floating cap based upon the character's level. This floating cap we can label the character's "terminal velocity", or the point in the fall where death is guaranteed. As a general result based upon the rule change above, a character's terminal velocity is a number of dice of damage equal to twice the character's current level. For example, a 10th-level character's terminal velocity would be at 20 dice, which translates to roughly 60 feet. A 3d-level character's terminal velocity is at 6 dice, or 30 feet. This also can apply to creatures. For example, a tyrannosaurus driven off a cliff would reach terminal velocity at 36 dice, or roughly 80 feet.

After reaching terminal velocity, no more damage is assessed to the character until impact with the ground. Upon impact with the ground, the character or creature is reduced to -7 hit points, with death guaranteed if help does not reach the fallen in time.

If a new version of the falling rule were to be written, this may be how it would appear in the book.
If a character or creature falls from a height of six to ten feet, a dexterity check must be made. if the check is successful, the character or creature falling takes no damage. If the check is not successful, falling damage is one die. The die used is the same type the being rolls for hit points, thus a tyrannosaurus would take 1d8 points of damage while a barbarian would take 1d12. From heights greater than 10 feet, damage accrues significantly. For every 10 feet fallen, up to the terminal velocity of the character or creature, the number of dice used for damage increases by one. The damage for each 10 feet fallen is cumulative. For example, if a fighter falls 18 feet, they take 1d10 damage for the first 10 feet and 2d10 damage for the next 10 feet for a total of 3d10 damage. If a wizard fell from a height of 45 feet, they would take 1d4 for the first 10 feet, 2d4 for the second 10 feet, 3d4 for the third 10 feet, and 4d4 damage for the last 10 feet, for a total of 10d4 points of damage.

If the number of dice of falling damage equals twice the character's level or creature's hit dice, or 2 dice in the case of a zero-level being, the character or creature is said to have reached "terminal velocity". If the distance fallen would increase damage beyond the being's terminal velocity, then upon impact, the character or creature is reduced to -7 hit points, with death assured if the fallen does not receive aid in time. For example, a 12th-level fighter falls 150 feet off a cliff. Terminal velocity for the fighter is at 24 dice of damage, or roughly 70 feet. Beyond 70 feet the fighter is dropped to -7 hit points on impact with the ground and will die in 3 rounds unless aid can reach him in time.
It's not perfect, but it does fix the requirement that the CK calculate damage dice all the way to ground zero. It keeps falls as the serious business they should be, and it keeps the luck factor of hit points, where hit points are a measure of skill and luck mitigating damage rather than just a number, intact.

Feel free to improve on this.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Fizz »

Traveller wrote:Multiplying it like that though leads to its own issues, namely that falls from short distances are even more deadly than before. Your 5th-level fighter will suffer an average of 55 hit points damage from a 20-foot fall. Your first idea is a better one but you still have the issue of high level characters being more likely to survive a long fall. Anyway, let's rewrite the rule a little bit to take variable dice types into account.
But it's not proportionately more deadly. The 5th level fighter has about 5 times more hit points than a 1st level fighter. But he's suffering 5 times the damage. So it's just as deadly to the 5th level fighter as the 1st level figher.

Or did i misunderstand you- and you just mean that a 20 foot fall is too deadly for everyone? You may be right. The easy fix is just to half the damage roll (for everyone of all classes and levels). So:

Falling damage = 1/2 * level * class Hit Die * (height/10). (Height in feet, of course).

I do like the idea that these can be reduced too. If the character chooses to make the drop (ie, he's lowering himself, or jumps, as opposed to being thrown by a giant or something), then the first 10 feet is ignored. Another 10 feet can be ignored with a successful Dexterity save with a CL equal to the height. For most heroes, these two conditions should make most falls of 20-30 feet or so survivable. But anything higher gets deadly quickly.

All the above assumes a drop onto a solid flat surface. I think modifications can also be made for the landing. After all, a 30 foot drop onto flat concrete is a lot worse than a 30 foot drop into water, or a stack of hay, or even onto a hard sloped surface. It's very true- it's not the drop that kills you, it's the sudden stop. Conversely, if the landing is an area of rough jagged rocks, it's going to be even worse than the flat concrete.


-Fizz

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Traveller »

A 20 foot fall using the character's level as a multiplier is way too deadly.

Your system - average 55hp.
RAW - average 10.5hp
My system - average 16.5hp

Just using the dice type for falling damage ensures that all beings lose the same proportion of hit points for falling a given distance. The multiplier is totally unnecessary and simply adds insult to injury.

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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Buttmonkey »

I think you're better off just assigning a percentage chance of death based on the height of the fall rather then messing with a damage formula. Hit points are designed to model combat where skill and hardiness are significant factors. Being good at dodging swords is not relevant to surviving a 40 foot drop. Hit points just don't model that. How about for falls over 20 feet, you assign a 1% chance of death per foot fallen with a saving throw mechanic to luckily survive an otherwise lethal drop? For example, if the PC falls 40 feet, there is a 40% chance of dying? If the d100 doesn't go the player's way, give the PC a 1 in 20 chance of surviving anyway. The tricky part is what kind of damage does a PC suffer when surviving a large fall. How about they are damaged for a percentage of their hit points equal to the distance fallen? For example, if they PC falls 60 feet and lives, the PC loses 60% of its hit points. I'd put that at 60% of max hit points. A wounded PC with 1 remaining hit point who falls 60 feet should probably be dead on impact barring the Miracle saving throw. This isn't perfect, obviously, but I think it does a better job of modeling the effects of a fall than escalating d6s for damage.
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Re: Falling Damage

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Buttmonkey wrote:Hit points are designed to model combat where skill and hardiness are significant factors. Being good at dodging swords is not relevant to surviving a 40 foot drop. Hit points just don't model that.
Incorrect. See page 133 of the C&C PHB for the correct definition of hit points in the game. But, you can certainly house rule them as being such.
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Re: Falling Damage

Post by Buttmonkey »

Arduin wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:Hit points are designed to model combat where skill and hardiness are significant factors. Being good at dodging swords is not relevant to surviving a 40 foot drop. Hit points just don't model that.
Incorrect. See page 133 of the C&C PHB for the correct definition of hit points in the game. But, you can certainly house rule them as being such.
I reread the hit points section of the PHB on pages 113 and 114 as well as the damage section on page 134. I stand by what I posted.
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Re: Falling Damage

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Buttmonkey wrote: I reread the hit points section of the PHB on pages 113 and 114 as well as the damage section on page 134. I stand by what I posted.
Right. Like I said House rule are what ever works for your game.
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