RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Sir Ironside
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RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Sir Ironside »

For those who have better knowledge about Primes, than me, and have a RPG.net account maybe you could help out the OP in the thread they started.

[C&C] The problem with Primes
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Arduin »

Sir Ironside wrote:For those who have better knowledge about Primes, than me, and have a RPG.net account maybe you could help out the OP in the thread they started.

[C&C] The problem with Primes
I don't have an account. The "problem" stated is mainly one of not reading the PHB. Surprise is up in the air but, Clerics using Rogue special abilities is just because the GM didn't read the basic rules.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Sir Ironside »

Arduin wrote:
Sir Ironside wrote:For those who have better knowledge about Primes, than me, and have a RPG.net account maybe you could help out the OP in the thread they started.

[C&C] The problem with Primes
I don't have an account. The "problem" stated is mainly one of not reading the PHB. Surprise is up in the air but, Clerics using Rogue special abilities is just because the GM didn't read the basic rules.
I'd be happy to post a rebuttal, just point out, where in the rules that this is covered.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Arduin »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Sir Ironside wrote:For those who have better knowledge about Primes, than me, and have a RPG.net account maybe you could help out the OP in the thread they started.

[C&C] The problem with Primes
I don't have an account. The "problem" stated is mainly one of not reading the PHB. Surprise is up in the air but, Clerics using Rogue special abilities is just because the GM didn't read the basic rules.
I'd be happy to post a rebuttal, just point out, where in the rules that this is covered.
PHB, Castle Keeper section on, Adding Char levels to checks. It is its own section that covers that explicitly.

This also applies to a Rogue using the Listen ability to keep from being surprised. It uses Wis but, a Cleric can't add his levels to that check either. ;) Someone isn't reading the rules over there.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Rigon »

I think his first misunderstanding is the cleric being able to find traps better than a rogue at low level. The rogues traps ability is an Int check, not a Wis check. As for the Surprise problem, that's been a thorn in the side for ever.

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Rigon wrote:I think his first misunderstanding is the cleric being able to find traps better than a rogue at low level. The rogues traps ability is an Int check, not a Wis check. As for the Surprise problem, that's been a thorn in the side for ever.

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PLUS, Find traps isn't on the Clerics skill list. The default rule also means the Cleric can't even try. So, not being able to try is definitely not better than a Rogue. :shock:
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by alcyone »

I've never understood why anyone cares if the Cleric is good at finding traps anyway. They have a level 2 spell for the purpose. This whole, if I play this class, I will be the best, and if I am not, it's broken thing bothers the heck out of me.

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Fiffergrund »

I avoid RPGnet as one of those "wretched hive" sort of places.

I'd simply suggest that the OP

1) Read the PHB more carefully

2) Come over here for more clarification
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Fiffergrund wrote:I avoid RPGnet as one of those "wretched hive" sort of places.
I'm sure we're all glad you don't go there for Moderator lessons :).
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Aergraith wrote:
Fiffergrund wrote:I avoid RPGnet as one of those "wretched hive" sort of places.
I'm sure we're all glad you don't go there for Moderator lessons :).
Is it one of those sites where the Mods think that they are rulers of a Banana Republic?
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by alcyone »

I don't know what they think, but they are quick to lay down the law.

Anyway, I shouldn't really disparage them. If the person with questions comes here, it's probably the best place to get an answer.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Sir Ironside »

Arduin wrote:
Aergraith wrote:
Fiffergrund wrote:I avoid RPGnet as one of those "wretched hive" sort of places.
I'm sure we're all glad you don't go there for Moderator lessons :).
Is it one of those sites where the Mods think that they are rulers of a Banana Republic?
A long time ago it was a fairly moderated board, now a days it fits more of your description. To be fair not all mods act the same, but the real bad ones like to be treated like superstars, the "Respect my Authoritaaayyy!" and even hold forum posters in contempt. As far as I can tell their system for getting a ban reversed, is a joke, because it seems the mods are never wrong. I went years without being banned, then one day I got a 5 day ban. I was all confused because in the e-mail all the mod put for why I was banned was "Bewbs". I wrote into their system asking what exactly that meant, but never got a response. It turned out I got banned for quoting a post that had "boobs" in it. My response was something along the lines of, "That was uncalled for." It wasn't my post that was the ban able offence, it was the quote. To add insult to injury they didn't even ban the original quoter. They also definitely play favourites. Suck-up to the mods and tell them how awesome they are and you get more leeway.

I don't go there often, anymore. I stay in touch mostly because they do have good discussions on topics I"m interested in and I will post to promote things I like, like TLG Kickstarters.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Arduin »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Aergraith wrote:
Fiffergrund wrote:I avoid RPGnet as one of those "wretched hive" sort of places.
I'm sure we're all glad you don't go there for Moderator lessons :).
Is it one of those sites where the Mods think that they are rulers of a Banana Republic?
A long time ago it was a fairly moderated board, now a days it fits more of your description. To be fair not all mods act the same, but the real bad ones like to be treated like superstars, the "Respect my Authoritaaayyy!" and even hold forum posters in contempt. As far as I can tell their system for getting a ban reversed, is a joke, because it seems the mods are never wrong. I went years without being banned, then one day I got a 5 day ban. I was all confused because in the e-mail all the mod put for why I was banned was "Bewbs". I wrote into their system asking what exactly that meant, but never got a response. It turned out I got banned for quoting a post that had "boobs" in it. My response was something along the lines of, "That was uncalled for." It wasn't my post that was the ban able offence, it was the quote. To add insult to injury they didn't even ban the original quoter. They also definitely play favourites. Suck-up to the mods and tell them how awesome they are and you get more leeway.

I don't go there often, anymore. I stay in touch mostly because they do have good discussions on topics I"m interested in and I will post to promote things I like, like TLG Kickstarters.
Ouch. It sucks when trolls become Mods. :(
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Arduin wrote:Ouch. It sucks when trolls become Mods. :(
Sounds like the name of an adventure. ;)
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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DeadReborn wrote:
Arduin wrote:Ouch. It sucks when trolls become Mods. :(
Sounds like the name of an adventure. ;)
:lol:
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Fizz »

So, i see that Davis replied to that theard, though i think he said something incorrect.

The fighter, never having been taught how to pick a pocket devises his own methodology and gives it a shot. Even though the fighter has a dex prime, the base target number is still 18 because it another classes ability.

"base target number is still 18 because it another classes ability"? Does this sound incorrect to anyone else? I know of no core rule that states the CB is 18 for abilities of another class. In fact, PH (5th) page 123 describes this- the only factor determining whether the base is 12 or 18 is whether the attribute is prime- no mention of whether it's a class ability or not.

With regards to the thread, i think the best response to the initial complaint is that 1st level characters are, well, 1st level! They're young, just starting out, so natural ability (ie primes) should be the dominant factor. As characters level up, that's where training comes in, and soon enough that becomes the dominant factor.

Another response to the complaint is "so what"? If you want to pigeon-hole your characters into set roles ("the ranger must always be best at detecting surprise") that's your business. But why does it have to be that way? I actually like C&C and the Primes system because it allows such things to happen- more character variety in a simple system.


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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by alcyone »

That might follow from the prime/primary/secondary thread with Stephen, in which stats that are class abilities are rolled as if they were the prime stat. I don't know if it was discussed, but maybe by that logic non-class would be non-prime?

I don't know. My understanding is you simply don't add level on cross-class abilities.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Aergraith wrote:That might follow from the prime/primary/secondary thread with Stephen, in which stats that are class abilities are rolled as if they were the prime stat. I don't know if it was discussed, but maybe by that logic non-class would be non-prime?

I don't know. My understanding is you simply don't add level on cross-class abilities.
Maybe, but if that's the case then Primes wouldn't mean anything. Class ability: use 12. Non-class ability: use 18. I think they intended it to be more than that.

I'm hoping Davis just misspoke and meant to refer to level.


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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Rigon »

Fizz wrote:
Aergraith wrote:That might follow from the prime/primary/secondary thread with Stephen, in which stats that are class abilities are rolled as if they were the prime stat. I don't know if it was discussed, but maybe by that logic non-class would be non-prime?

I don't know. My understanding is you simply don't add level on cross-class abilities.
Maybe, but if that's the case then Primes wouldn't mean anything. Class ability: use 12. Non-class ability: use 18. I think they intended it to be more than that.

I'm hoping Davis just misspoke and meant to refer to level.


-Fizz
By going from Steve's post about class abilities being prime, I'd imagine that was how they play it in their home game.

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by pawndream »

The thing about the SIEGE system is that it is pretty simplistic and there is a lot of room to customize it to fit your table. Steve has described how it plays at his table. I have also heard of people only allowing a bonus of level/2 for someone to attempt to use a class-niche skill, some tables don't allow level bonuses at all under the same circumstances. Basically many different ways to approach a simple task resolution system that revolves around two base numbers 12 or 18.

I pretty much always let a character add their level to the SIEGE check and let them use 12 as a base if it is a class skill (whether it is a Prime for that character or not). It works pretty well for me, but I am sure others have different ways they handle it.

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Rigon wrote:By going from Steve's post about class abilities being prime, I'd imagine that was how they play it in their home game.
Oh is that what he meant- that's his house rule? That would make sense. Just wasn't clear from that message (unless i misread something).

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Aergraith wrote:
I don't know. My understanding is you simply don't add level on cross-class abilities.
The default rule is one cannot even roll if the ability belongs to another class. IF the GM is generous and allows the fighter to try and pick a lock, then no level bonus is allowed.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by alcyone »

Arduin wrote:
Aergraith wrote:
I don't know. My understanding is you simply don't add level on cross-class abilities.
The default rule is one cannot even roll if the ability belongs to another class. IF the GM is generous and allows the fighter to try and pick a lock, then no level bonus is allowed.
That is true.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Arduin wrote:The default rule is one cannot even roll if the ability belongs to another class. IF the GM is generous and allows the fighter to try and pick a lock, then no level bonus is allowed.
Well, it says it's recommended he not be allowed. Whether it is allowed is not so much a matter of CK generosity but of circumstances, i think.

For instace, Open Lock and Tracking are very specialized skills requiring specific training, so i can see disallowing those in general. But if a rogue is telling the fighter how to do it, it'd seem fair to add a check (no level bonus of course).

For more basic skills, such as the rogue's Climb or Listen, i see no reason anyone can't attempt those in general. But you might limit an attempt on a sheer smooth cliff to only the rogue.


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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Rigon »

Fizz wrote:With regards to the thread, i think the best response to the initial complaint is that 1st level characters are, well, 1st level! They're young, just starting out, so natural ability (ie primes) should be the dominant factor. As characters level up, that's where training comes in, and soon enough that becomes the dominant factor.
Honestly, this is the best explanation for low level vs prime that I've seen in the 10 years I've been playing C&C.
Another response to the complaint is "so what"? If you want to pigeon-hole your characters into set roles ("the ranger must always be best at detecting surprise") that's your business. But why does it have to be that way? I actually like C&C and the Primes system because it allows such things to happen- more character variety in a simple system.


-Fizz
I couldn't agree more.

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Fizz wrote:
Well, it says it's recommended he not be allowed.
Correct the default (recommended as to what is usually done) is no roll possible.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

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Fizz wrote:
Arduin wrote:The default rule is one cannot even roll if the ability belongs to another class. IF the GM is generous and allows the fighter to try and pick a lock, then no level bonus is allowed.
Well, it says it's recommended he not be allowed. Whether it is allowed is not so much a matter of CK generosity but of circumstances, i think.

For instace, Open Lock and Tracking are very specialized skills requiring specific training, so i can see disallowing those in general. But if a rogue is telling the fighter how to do it, it'd seem fair to add a check (no level bonus of course).

-Fizz
That's very much a sensible position. I think it falls under the entire philosophy of "rulings, not rules", which I think can be a big part of running a successful C&C game.

If it makes sense for the GM to allow it or adds to the game, it should be allowed. As long as rulings are relatively consistent and sensible, I don't see an issue with it.
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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Galadrin »

Hi all, I am the poster of the RPG.net post. To be fair, I am actually in complete agreement with everything you've all said. As I posted on RPG.net, I don't think there actually is a problem with primes, since you can build the niche you want. My true question is "can we start thinking of the new kinds of rangers, thieves and fighters that C&C enables us to envision?" I'm not sure why I was so misunderstood... Either I didn't put my question clearly or the online-texting generation is slowly sapping us of critical reading skills. Probably both!

Anyway, thank you Davis for an interesting addition to the conversation!

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by Rigon »

Galadrin wrote:Hi all, I am the poster of the RPG.net post. To be fair, I am actually in complete agreement with everything you've all said. As I posted on RPG.net, I don't think there actually is a problem with primes, since you can build the niche you want. My true question is "can we start thinking of the new kinds of rangers, thieves and fighters that C&C enables us to envision?" I'm not sure why I was so misunderstood... Either I didn't put my question clearly or the online-texting generation is slowly sapping us of critical reading skills. Probably both!
The answer is yes, we can. In my games, I removed class required Primes. You pick whatever Primes you want your character to have. This really opens up a whole different set of "types" for play. And that is the beauty of C&C.
Anyway, thank you Davis for an interesting addition to the conversation!
His additions are usually interesting. ;)

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Re: RPGnet has Prime Questions

Post by ThrorII »

Regarding class skills and primes, I've always handled them this way: (not exactly RAW, but in the spirit of RAW)

A standard attribute check is d20+attribute modifier, against a challenge base of 12 (prime) or 18 (non-prime). Characters are allowed to add their level bonus to the check only if it is a basic check, or they have class abilities, or racial abilities, that expand on the type of check.

STRENGTH CHECKS
Basic strength checks: Jump, Lift, Swim, Open Door

DEXTERITY CHECKS
Basic dexterity checks: Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Tumble

Climb: A successful check allows the character to climb typical natural slopes and inclines, or climb man made inclines such as steep steps, with obvious hand and foot holds. A successful climb check allows the character to move at ½ their normal rate. A failed scale check means that the character makes no progress. A check that fails by 5 or more means that the character falls from the currently attained height and must suffer falling damage. Characters with the Climb special ability do not need to roll for typical slopes and inclines.

To climb impossible or virtually impossible surfaces requires the ranger’s Scale ability or the rogue’s or assassin’s Climb ability.

Hide: A successful check allows the character to conceal themselves. If the character is being observed, even casually, they can’t hide. Characters cannot move and hide at the same time. Assassins, halflings, rangers and rogues have expanded hiding and concealing skills.

Horsemanship: A successful check allows the character to saddle, mount, ride and dismount; perform simple leaps and obstacle maneuvers. A knight automatically succeeds on a basic Horsemanship check, and has expanded Horsemanship abilities.

Move Silently: A successful check allows the character to move quietly at ½ their normal speed. Characters cannot Move Silently on some surfaces (gravel, dead leaves, etc.). Assassins, elves, half-elves, halflings, rangers, and rogues have expanded Move Silently abilities.

INTELLIGENCE CHECKS
Basic intelligence checks: Appraise, Forgery

Knowledge: Knowledge has several categories. The listed classes may add their class level to the roll. Typical knowledge categories include: Arcana (illusionist, wizard), nature (druid, ranger), Geography (all), Nobility (knight), History (all), Religion (cleric, druid, paladin and). Bards add their level to all checks.

Traps: A successful check allows the character to find crude traps (such as concealed pit traps or rope snares). It takes one turn to locate a trap in a 10 by 10 foot area. A successful check indicates the character finds one trap, if any are present. Rogues and Assassins have expanded Trap abilities.

WISDOM CHECKS
Perception: Assassins, rangers, and rogues add their level to all checks. Dwarves add their level to their Stonecraft racial ability; elves and half-elves add their level to their Spot Hidden Doors racial ability. Half-orcs add their level to their Enhanced Sense of Smell check.

Heal: Anyone can stabilize a character who is between -7 and -9 hit points by spending 1 full turn tending to them.

Listen: A successful check allows the character to hear normal sounds (talking, fighting, etc) through a wooden door or other similar obstacle. While outside or in the open, a successful Wisdom check allows the character to hear whispers within 10 feet. Elves, gnomes, and half-elves add their level to their Listen checks. A rogue or assassin has expanded Listen abilities.

Survival: A successful check allows the character in wilderness environments to successfully provide shelter for themselves and others, and provide decent food and water for several people. The character must spend 8 hours hunting and gathering to produce enough food and water to feed 2-8 people for a day. Druids and rangers automatically succeed on a basic Survival check, and have expanded Survival abilities.

Track: Allows the character to successfully track any creature in a wilderness setting that leaves a discernable trace. Checks are made every 5 hours. Characters cannot determine specific features about the creature tracked, such as numbers, type or status (injured, etc). Rangers automatically succeed on a basic Track check, and have expanded Track abilities.

CHARISMA CHECKS
Basic charisma checks: The listed classes may add their class level to the roll. Bluff (assassin, bard, rogue), Diplomacy (bard, knight, and paladin), Gather Information (bard, rogue, and assassin), Intimidate (fighter, ranger, and barbarian).

Disguise: A successful check allows a character to disguise themselves and impersonate general types of people. Assassins and illusionists have expanded disguise abilities.

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