New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

Post by tylermo »

I have no clue when the others are coming for sure, but I hope M&T makes it before GenCon. That gives folks the two books they need to play.

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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That would be nice, but I'm not going to count on it - that way I won't be disappointed.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

Post by Warunsun »

tylermo wrote:I have no clue when the others are coming for sure, but I hope M&T makes it before GenCon. That gives folks the two books they need to play.
It was pretty awesome for Troll Lord to ship the PH separately. I imagine that the rest of the books will be printed and shipped together. The delivery date is "August 2014" but I wouldn't be surprised if it slipped some. Timing is important because the D&D Fifth Edition marketing machine is going into full speed at GenCon. Any chance of increased retail sales from shiny new books is going to diminish if they are sitting next to a full color display case of 5E books. I guess for us (folks already playing C&C) it doesn't matter. Be nice for others to get into the game!
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Warunsun wrote: Any chance of increased retail sales from shiny new books is going to diminish if they are sitting next to a full color display case of 5E books. I guess for us (folks already playing C&C) it doesn't matter. Be nice for others to get into the game!
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the demo that is there. Since the free PDF was released people can see what type of game 5E is and isn't. It is not Old school in flavor. Super hard to kill, video game like, 1st level PC's, non-old school magic system, et al. All people I've introduced to C&C who like it, don't really like that style of game. So, I don't think it will have a negative impact on C&C at all.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Arduin wrote: All people I've introduced to C&C who like it, don't really like that style of game. So, I don't think it will have a negative impact on C&C at all.
Yeah, I'm not convinced the target audience actually overlaps very much.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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DMSamuel wrote:Yeah, I'm not convinced the target audience actually overlaps very much.
I think it is the same target audience largely. Obviously, if you have a particular edition you are pleased with then you aren't necessarily shopping around for systems. People browsing in a retail store are looking for something new to them. For most, both C&C and 5E are new. :)
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Warunsun wrote:
DMSamuel wrote:Yeah, I'm not convinced the target audience actually overlaps very much.
I think it is the same target audience largely. Obviously, if you have a particular edition you are pleased with then you aren't necessarily shopping around for systems. People browsing in a retail store are looking for something new to them. For most, both C&C and 5E are new. :)
Right, but we aren't talking about a retail store - we're talking about a GenCon exhibitor's hall. :)
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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DMSamuel wrote:
Right, but we aren't talking about a retail store - we're talking about a GenCon exhibitor's hall. :)

Exactly. Those are two different animals. Plus, everyone looking to buy a new car aren't the same demo either. Some are looking for 4X4's, some sedans, etc., etc.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Arduin wrote:Plus, everyone looking to buy a new car aren't the same demo either. Some are looking for 4X4's, some sedans, etc., etc.
Actually, I think both C&C and 5E are remarkably similar enough to be in the same "sedan" classification.

I actually got a smile on my face when I read some of the 5E innovations that happened years ago in C&C like saving throws versus all six abilities. :)
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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Warunsun wrote:
Arduin wrote:Plus, everyone looking to buy a new car aren't the same demo either. Some are looking for 4X4's, some sedans, etc., etc.
Actually, I think both C&C and 5E are remarkably similar enough to be in the same "sedan" classification.
Similar in some mechanical ways. COMPLETELY different in style & approach to the game. 5E incorporates the video game approach to PC power & killability. That is in direct opposition to the Old School approach. A quick glance at mechanics and one says, "Looks a bit like C&C." Having played the playtest and scouring the basic released rules, it isn't at all the same game. But, WotC HAD to include that aspect to have any possibility of getting the 4E crowd to buy in.

Don't blame them a bit for keeping the video-game DNA/mentality strongly in the new game as they got rid of their 3.x fanbase. LONG ago told Old School gamers to take a hike and only have the 4E base left. This game might get back some of the 3x crowd and retain some 4E guys. It will pull very little of the Old School crowd from what they are currently playing.

An interesting marketing dilemma.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

Post by gabriellyon »

I also feel that there is going to be a level of competition between C&C and 5th edition but I think that may come largely from people new to the hobby. I plan to play given the chance, as there is little likelihood that anyone else nearby will start a C&C game I can join, but I will continue to run C&C for my group and at demos.

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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gabriellyon wrote:I also feel that there is going to be a level of competition between C&C and 5th edition but I think that may come largely from people new to the hobby.
I think so too as newbies won't have a basis for comparison.
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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I want to weigh in on this and I will probably add something off topic, but I think it is relevant. 5E (Mike Mearls) has made a lot of promises. Frankly, I think those promises will not be kept. Down-load the free basic rules PDF. This is not your 1974-1979 style D&D. It is certainly not 4e ultra-video-game either. It is a scaled back 4e with a twist of old-school “flava”. Not a misspelling, I said “flava”, not “flavor”.

Will that drag off any C&C players? Yes. Will it draw some 4e players? Yes. Will it take market share from Pathfinder? You bet! 3e/Pathfinder is aging. There are enough C&C fans who are unhappy with the (what they see as) incomplete rules i.e. look up dodge rules in the PHB 6th printing. Confusing? The Pathfinder/3e style player is looking for completeness (defined as interwoven and harmonic with other rules) and it must be concise. From that perspective, C&C is “old-school”. The white box (1974) lacked “complete” rules. It was not designed that way. The DM finished the rules. Remember appendix ”N”?

There are C&C players who are into C&C for the rules light aspect but who look for further codification or solid clarification. It pops up here all the time, on these forums. I would be included in that category. Will some leave and go try D&D 5e for a while? Yes. There will be a few that will leave C&C forever. Others, maybe Pathfinder fans, who are tired of the rules glut, who will try it as well, may never go back to Pathfinder. Some will stick; some will decide maybe not and then try C&C. It is a fluid industry.

Look at the grognards who will forever stick with conglomerations of white box/home rules/1e. Those guys have not consulted a book in years. You think any of them will even look up from their game to eye 5e over? There are a lot of guys in that category. They spend little if any money on gaming. They have graph paper and pencils and come from a time when you do it yourself. Good luck there.

The target audience is those who have money and who will spend it. C&C appeals to a wide spectrum of gamers but the word is not out there. I run into gamers who have never heard of it. I sell 2-3 PHB and M&T’s each year at GenCon to guys who attend the games I run. Most of them are Pathfinder players looking for something new, or different, maybe easier.

Sure, C&C will compete with 5e on some level, but not in the same market niche. The game proper, spans 40 years. That is the difference in a 50-60 year old player and a high-school kid at age 16 or 17. Do they share interests in game mechanics? I stop for cocoa every morning at a filling station on the way to work. I see older guys getting coffee. They grab a cup, fill it and pay at the counter and it is done. The younger guys, they grab a cup, fill it, then decide which creamer to select and mess with it and then stand there and pour 5-8 more packets of sugar in the cup before being ready to check out.

Likewise, 5e has a lot of sugar in it to make it palatable to the younger set. I think just a little sugar in C&C will help. What I mean is better editing and some tightening up of the rules base. Not in the book. I think that since C&C does not have an SRD on line, maybe somewhere on the site, separate from the forums, TLG needs a rules discussion and clarification page. The designers could give their intended ideas and leave it at that. Where there is a desire for more codification, give it. But leave the books old school. Make sense?
As we move forward I think the rues light set is the way to go. But if someone wants rules light but still wants clarity and iron-clad rules, give it to them.

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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I'm not worried about 5e, just as I was not about 4e, or even 3.5. These games offer what they offer and people who are aware of them and like them will be drawn to them, just as they would have been. In fact, their existence is a positive thing... when people become disenfranchised with them, they might discover C&C (or some other game) and pick it up. Competition exists only for the publishers; the consumers can only win.

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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serleran wrote:I'm not worried about 5e, just as I was not about 4e, or even 3.5. These games offer what they offer and people who are aware of them and like them will be drawn to them, just as they would have been. In fact, their existence is a positive thing... when people become disenfranchised with them, they might discover C&C (or some other game) and pick it up. Competition exists only for the publishers; the consumers can only win.
True that!

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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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serleran wrote:I'm not worried about 5e, just as I was not about 4e, or even 3.5. These games offer what they offer and people who are aware of them and like them will be drawn to them, just as they would have been. In fact, their existence is a positive thing... when people become disenfranchised with them, they might discover C&C (or some other game) and pick it up. Competition exists only for the publishers; the consumers can only win.
Correct. I hope 5th brings in a FLOOD of new players. The more intelligent ones will then drift over to C&C :mrgreen:
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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serleran wrote:I'm not worried about 5e, just as I was not about 4e, or even 3.5. These games offer what they offer and people who are aware of them and like them will be drawn to them, just as they would have been. In fact, their existence is a positive thing... when people become disenfranchised with them, they might discover C&C (or some other game) and pick it up. Competition exists only for the publishers; the consumers can only win.
Well said!
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Re: New PHB6 (it's on the way)

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serleran wrote:I'm not worried about 5e, just as I was not about 4e, or even 3.5. These games offer what they offer and people who are aware of them and like them will be drawn to them, just as they would have been. In fact, their existence is a positive thing... when people become disenfranchised with them, they might discover C&C (or some other game) and pick it up. Competition exists only for the publishers; the consumers can only win.
I agree. I've had players come to C&C from a variety of backgrounds. 4e, 1e, 5e, Shadowrun, Rolemaster---it doesn't matter. More people in the hobby means more chances to introduce people to C&C and other great games, whatever method they come in by.
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