A question of HD

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

But the answer isn't to make mechanics match the depiction in video games (and maybe you're not saying it is).
Nope, in fact i might suggest the exact opposite- put animations in the game that illustrate the harshness of combat. IE, a warhammer blow should be animated with the victim cringing, being knocked over, at least dodging or blocking the attack. And each event would come with an associated loss of hit points.

It also occurs to me, would this confusion exist at all if they weren't called "hit points"? What if they were called "endurance points", or "combat points" or "defense points"?

-Fizz

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: A question of HD

Post by Arduin »

Fizz wrote: That raises an idea for an interesting mechanic. Perhaps all characters should have 1d8 hit points at first level regardless of class.
Sure, if you think that someone who spent his time from age 10 - 18 sitting in a class like environment studying (wizard apprentice) would be as physically tough as someone who lead a physically harder life and felt tough enough to pick a sword and make it their life's work...

Really doesn't make sense to do it like that either... ;)
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

Arduin wrote:
Fizz wrote: That raises an idea for an interesting mechanic. Perhaps all characters should have 1d8 hit points at first level regardless of class.
Sure, if you think that someone who spent his time from age 10 - 18 sitting in a class like environment studying (wizard apprentice) would be as physically tough as someone who lead a physically harder life and felt tough enough to pick a sword and make it their life's work...

Really doesn't make sense to do it like that either... ;)
Not necessarily. It depends on entirely when you measure level 1 as beginning.

I'd say a wizard apprentice is that 10 year old already 1st level. By the time he's 18 he's gained at least a level or two, but only a few hit points. Meanwhile your character with the physically hard life had just as many hit points at age 10, but he follows the path of the barbarian and thus has more hit points at age 18. But at age 10, they were identical.

Of course you can also use attribute scores and primes to justify such differences as well.


-Fizz

User avatar
mbeacom
Ulthal
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: A question of HD

Post by mbeacom »

Fizz wrote:
But the answer isn't to make mechanics match the depiction in video games (and maybe you're not saying it is).
Nope, in fact i might suggest the exact opposite- put animations in the game that illustrate the harshness of combat. IE, a warhammer blow should be animated with the victim cringing, being knocked over, at least dodging or blocking the attack. And each event would come with an associated loss of hit points.

It also occurs to me, would this confusion exist at all if they weren't called "hit points"? What if they were called "endurance points", or "combat points" or "defense points"?

-Fizz
'

Maybe this particular confusion wouldn't exist, but I think others would simply take its place. Example: Combat Points. "What do you mean? How did I lose combat points from a trap? That's not combat!"

Basically, I still think the best answer isn't to change anything, but to have people read the books more carefully, and perhaps to better write the books in anticipation of possible confusion. Particularly with an eye towards converts from videogames, because that will be, as you say, pretty common.
Witty Quote Pending
-Someone

User avatar
mbeacom
Ulthal
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: A question of HD

Post by mbeacom »

Fizz wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Fizz wrote: That raises an idea for an interesting mechanic. Perhaps all characters should have 1d8 hit points at first level regardless of class.
Sure, if you think that someone who spent his time from age 10 - 18 sitting in a class like environment studying (wizard apprentice) would be as physically tough as someone who lead a physically harder life and felt tough enough to pick a sword and make it their life's work...

Really doesn't make sense to do it like that either... ;)
Not necessarily. It depends on entirely when you measure level 1 as beginning.

I'd say a wizard apprentice is that 10 year old already 1st level. By the time he's 18 he's gained at least a level or two, but only a few hit points. Meanwhile your character with the physically hard life had just as many hit points at age 10, but he follows the path of the barbarian and thus has more hit points at age 18. But at age 10, they were identical.

Of course you can also use attribute scores and primes to justify such differences as well.


-Fizz
What you're saying, kind of already exists. Because most 0 level humans (which is what you're talking about really) have the same HP regardless. You don't, I think, take a level in a class until you've already completed the core competencies of that class. A wizard can cast a spell or two, a fighter swing a sword competently, a bard can perform a song, etc. The 10 year old just beginning his/her training really doesn't even have a class yet, as I understand the meaning of class. So in the current game and in your proposed game, all those 10 year old already do have the same HP. The larger HP comes when they take a class. I think that's how it's supposed to work, although I'm sure there's a large variation in how "0-level" works in different editions.
Witty Quote Pending
-Someone

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

The 10 year old just beginning his/her training really doesn't even have a class yet, as I understand the meaning of class. So in the current game and in your proposed game, all those 10 year old already do have the same HP.
Fair point. In which case, everyone should have 1d8 for being a 0th level humanoid, plus a hit die for their particular class. So a 1st level wizard would have 1d8+1d4 hit points and a 5th level fighter would have 1d8+5d10 hit points. I'm ok with that. This draws a clear distinction between those hit points earned naturally and those earned through training / adventure.

-Fizz

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: A question of HD

Post by Arduin »

Fizz wrote: I'd say a wizard apprentice is that 10 year old already 1st level. By the time he's 18 he's gained at least a level or two, but only a few hit points.

Except, that isn't how it works in D&D or C&C. Starting wizards are basically young adults (read 18 or older) who have spent earlier years in academic schooling.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Acacius »

Arduin wrote:
Fizz wrote: I'd say a wizard apprentice is that 10 year old already 1st level. By the time he's 18 he's gained at least a level or two, but only a few hit points.

Except, that isn't how it works in D&D or C&C. Starting wizards are basically young adults (read 18 or older) who have spent earlier years in academic schooling.
What if that wizard hit the gym and ate a good nutritious diet between classes?

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

Arduin wrote:Except, that isn't how it works in D&D or C&C. Starting wizards are basically young adults (read 18 or older) who have spent earlier years in academic schooling.
Says who? I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that says it does or doesn't. That's entirely up to the CK and/or players.

-Fizz

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

Acacius wrote:What if that wizard hit the gym and ate a good nutritious diet between classes?
Exactly! Arduin doesn't know that wizard's life! :)

I so feel like i'm arguing comic book characters now. LOL.


-Fizz

User avatar
Acacius
Mist Elf
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Acacius »

Fizz wrote:
Acacius wrote:What if that wizard hit the gym and ate a good nutritious diet between classes?
Exactly! Arduin doesn't know that wizard's life! :)

I so feel like i'm arguing comic book characters now. LOL.


-Fizz
Well I was thinking wizard school is similar to university and if that is the case what about the student that keeps a 4.0 in classes and is all state football player or track? I find it odd that spending time getting an education would determine how tough and resilient a person can be. Sure a boxer or MMA fighter might be able to dish out more damage in melee and even dodge/block some incoming damage but would he have more HP than a football lineman?

User avatar
mbeacom
Ulthal
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: A question of HD

Post by mbeacom »

Acacius wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Fizz wrote: I'd say a wizard apprentice is that 10 year old already 1st level. By the time he's 18 he's gained at least a level or two, but only a few hit points.

Except, that isn't how it works in D&D or C&C. Starting wizards are basically young adults (read 18 or older) who have spent earlier years in academic schooling.
What if that wizard hit the gym and ate a good nutritious diet between classes?
Then he would get passed up by all the wizard students who drank only coffee and studied through lunch.
Witty Quote Pending
-Someone

User avatar
mbeacom
Ulthal
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: A question of HD

Post by mbeacom »

Acacius wrote:
Fizz wrote:
Acacius wrote:What if that wizard hit the gym and ate a good nutritious diet between classes?
Exactly! Arduin doesn't know that wizard's life! :)

I so feel like i'm arguing comic book characters now. LOL.


-Fizz
Well I was thinking wizard school is similar to university and if that is the case what about the student that keeps a 4.0 in classes and is all state football player or track? I find it odd that spending time getting an education would determine how tough and resilient a person can be. Sure a boxer or MMA fighter might be able to dish out more damage in melee and even dodge/block some incoming damage but would he have more HP than a football lineman?
The correct answer is, "yes".

There's quite a good video of Bas Rutten (MMA) talking about his run in with Brian Urlacher (NFL Linebacker).
Witty Quote Pending
-Someone

User avatar
Zudrak
Lore Drake
Posts: 1377
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Audubon, NJ

Re: A question of HD

Post by Zudrak »

Fizz wrote:
But the answer isn't to make mechanics match the depiction in video games (and maybe you're not saying it is).
Nope, in fact i might suggest the exact opposite- put animations in the game that illustrate the harshness of combat. IE, a warhammer blow should be animated with the victim cringing, being knocked over, at least dodging or blocking the attack. And each event would come with an associated loss of hit points.

It also occurs to me, would this confusion exist at all if they weren't called "hit points"? What if they were called "endurance points", or "combat points" or "defense points"?

-Fizz
This sounds a lot like you're looking for the Vitality/Wound points used in the d20 Star Wars RPG (though I am not sure that is the first iteration of the system). All characters had a certain number of Wound Points equal to their Constitution score. These were not affected until all of their Vitality Points were wiped out first in combat. Vitality points are akin to the hit points of C&C, (A)D&D, etc. where they are rolled for based upon class and adjusted by the Constitution modifier. The only time Vitality points are circumvented in combat is when a critical hit is scored against a character/creature. This makes for critical hits being quite effective and potentially deadly.
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: A question of HD

Post by Fizz »

Zudrak wrote:This sounds a lot like you're looking for the Vitality/Wound points used in the d20 Star Wars RPG (though I am not sure that is the first iteration of the system). All characters had a certain number of Wound Points equal to their Constitution score. These were not affected until all of their Vitality Points were wiped out first in combat. Vitality points are akin to the hit points of C&C, (A)D&D, etc. where they are rolled for based upon class and adjusted by the Constitution modifier. The only time Vitality points are circumvented in combat is when a critical hit is scored against a character/creature. This makes for critical hits being quite effective and potentially deadly.
Yeah i remember that system, though never really played it.

I don't know if i'm looking for anything per se, just find the different rulesets and philosophies behind them interesting. My own modified grim-n-gritty works pretty well i think, so long as the players accept how dangerous combat really is and take it seriously.


-Fizz

User avatar
Zudrak
Lore Drake
Posts: 1377
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Audubon, NJ

Re: A question of HD

Post by Zudrak »

Fizz wrote:
Zudrak wrote:This sounds a lot like you're looking for the Vitality/Wound points used in the d20 Star Wars RPG (though I am not sure that is the first iteration of the system). All characters had a certain number of Wound Points equal to their Constitution score. These were not affected until all of their Vitality Points were wiped out first in combat. Vitality points are akin to the hit points of C&C, (A)D&D, etc. where they are rolled for based upon class and adjusted by the Constitution modifier. The only time Vitality points are circumvented in combat is when a critical hit is scored against a character/creature. This makes for critical hits being quite effective and potentially deadly.
Yeah i remember that system, though never really played it.

I don't know if i'm looking for anything per se, just find the different rulesets and philosophies behind them interesting. My own modified grim-n-gritty works pretty well i think, so long as the players accept how dangerous combat really is and take it seriously.


-Fizz
I stick to B/X D&D- and 1e AD&D-styled gaming because that's what I cut my gaming teeth on. I spent almost 10 full years away from gaming (1990-2000), but the mold was set. It's why I could not fathom why 3/3.5e didn't jibe with me.

As to the Vitality/Wound points system, I like it but it can be very deadly for the players unless critical hits are such that they happen less than 5% of the time.
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax

Post Reply