Is there any point playing a non-wizard at higher levels?

[slimykuotoan]

...

[Arduin]

Sure, why not? In my game (and RAW) spells take a full round (10 seconds) to cast. Get hit during a casting and you're spell is gone. Better have non-casters or you're TOAST.

(unless you run munchkin house rules)

[AGNKim]

For fun.

I'm a 9th level Dwarf Paladin in our game (with a 10th level Wizard in the game). Probably my favorite character and wouldn't want to play a Wizard instead of him regardless of level.

[DMSamuel]

Of course there is!

Smart monsters know to take out the one in robes chanting weird words first - if the non-casters weren't around, there would be no high level wizards.

[Kayolan]

A well-rounded party is always best, even at higher levels.

[Arduin]

Little story as an illustration:

I was on our university wrestling & fencing team. I was playing a fighter in a game. (for some reason I had not brought my saber to the game ) My fighter was attacking a spell using kobold. I started the round a few feet away. The DM said that the caster could get off a spell before I could take him. The spell was a one round spell. I asked the DM to RP this in real life.

I stood a couple of feet away from the DM and a player had a stop watch. (set for 6 seconds as that is what we were using as rounds). He said start. I took a half step and hooked the Dm's neck in a hold (successful roll to hit). He couldn't speak and was clawing at my arms as he was quickly going unconscious due to me performing a choke-out.

If one has REALLY been involved in hand to hand combat there is NO question on how to proceed...

In other words. I challenge you to stand still for 10 seconds while reciting a poem & making precise hand gestures AS I take a baseball bat to your head. You must successfully complete the poem and correct hand gestures in a 10 second time frame.

Are you game? (yes or no?)

[serleran]

There is plenty reason to continue to play a character to any level. I find revenge is a good motive.

[Aramis]

It is probably not as tactically interesting not to be a wizard, with all the options their spells provide, but high level scouts , front liners, and holy men are as much a necessity for success. Running a high level party of only wizards through a module would be an interesting, if brief, experiment . The wizard needs scouting to get his spells off first, he needs a front line to prevent people interfering with his spells, and he needs clerics to give him and the other party members the heals, restorations and other buffs that contribute to success.

Plus, RPGs are in part a game of imagination. Many people just enjoy imagining themselves as the heroic warrior battling evil and cutting monsters down like wheat

[mbeacom]

Does "in order to avoid repeated TPKs" qualify as a point?

[Captain_K]

Not to be too snotty, but I missed the point in all my games where higher level wizards are all that amazing. Their hp and AC remain low and they must keep everything at a distance while they have spells.. when they run out of spells and need to sleep then go to study hall... I know there are spells that give them safe harbor to rest, but baring those well they are not always all that great even at higher levels against each other..

[alcyone]

he needs a front line to prevent people interfering with his spells

Hrm, we have been doing it wrong; the front line interferes with your spells.

[Gundoggy]

I agree with Arduin.

The one criticism I have about C&C is the simplified spell initiative.

1E had varying casting times and the spell initiative in that game (although complicated) made it very difficult to cast spells with casting times of 3 or more segments in combat. Gygax even wrote that use of devices would help prevent disruption of spells.

Currently as I play, if a spell caster loses initiative and is hit, the spell is lost. With most spells, if the caster wins initiative the spell goes off. I suspect many people played 1E this way as well, rather than the complex method Gygax created.

[Arduin]

Currently as I play, if a spell caster loses initiative and is hit, the spell is lost. With most spells, if the caster wins initiative the spell goes off. I suspect many people played 1E this way as well, rather than the complex method Gygax created.

It doesn't much matter about init. EVERYONE operates in the same 10 seconds. A spell that takes 10 seconds HAS to go off at the END of the combat round. If an opponent can reasonably hit the caster BEFORE the end of the combat round, the spell should be disrupted.

Otherwise there is some kind of Time Stop in operation.

[Sir Ironside]

This has been a fairly recent conversation. I personally don't remember having these conversations in the 80's or 90's. (Though anecdotal evidence doesn't amount to a whole lot.) Personally, I think this has become a problem due to the drive to equality of characters through game mechanics and has taught a generation of GM/CK/DM's to rely on mechanics for character equalization and not game play. Any good referee can run a game, with characters of different power levels and skills to make it enjoyable for everyone.

Couple this with players who are playing more to win than have a shared experience only exasperates the problem.

To be clear, I'm not doing the, "Back in my day people knew how to role-play... NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!" I understand that people like to play different ways and if your version of fun includes my above two points then that is cool. I'm just stating a couple of factors that I perceive is an answer to the question. Not the only two answers and some may not agree with me.

[slimykuotoan]

Cool, thanx for the replies guys. I haven't yet played C&C above 12th level, and was curious as to peoples' experiences.

[AGNKim]

Molgrath The Sorcerer: Fool! My battery of spells will leave you weeping for death! First, I will cast a fireball, decimating you and your friends. Next, a chain lightning to visit pain on all of you! Next, a slow spell that will only cause you to watch the pain unfold around you quicker as you are powerless to act. Next, an acid arrow that will continue killing you even after I have moved on. Then a barrage of magic missiles, all unerringly striking and each carries the suffering of a thousand wasps. Finally, another fireball to clean up your mess!

Grog the Barbarian: OK, let's dance.

Round 1: Molgrath wins init, drops a fireball, Grog takes 31 damage. Grog swings his +3 two-handed Battle Axe of Fire, inflicting 16 damage.
Round 2: Grog wins init, swings for 20 damage. Molgrath falls.

Grog: You were saying?