Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

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Rhuvein
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Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

I many times wonder if they should have a higher hit die.

I play them a lot and have found myself in many situations where . . turning undead fails, spells fail or are resisted and I can't use crossbows.

So I have to go toe to toe with monsters, cause the wizards and rogues are fucking hiding and being piss ants!! :x

What say you?? :)

[Edit . . oh yeah, and the cleric usually has to use spells that heal/benefit the party rather than beef up his own self!]

[Edit 2 - assume a btb roll for HPs or a house rule that doesn't necessarily fatten up their HPs.]
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by maasenstodt »

I think that would simply escalate things. Fighters would then want a d12, and Barbarians would want to roll Zocchi dice for hit points!

To me, Clerics in C&C are a pretty powerful class as is. They have both offensive and defensive magic, great AC options, good weapon options, and they can turn undead. And their hit points are only a hair shy of a Fighter's.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

maasenstodt wrote:I think that would simply escalate things. Fighters would then want a d12, and Barbarians would want to roll Zocchi dice for hit points!

To me, Clerics in C&C are a pretty powerful class as is. They have both offensive and defensive magic, great AC options, good weapon options, and they can turn undead. And their hit points are only a hair shy of a Fighter's.
Haha, well said. But no to the fighter and barb.

Another reason for my question . . is in my online game, I'm a 3rd level cleric with 8 HPs. I find that casting cure light on myself every day is challenging. And then I realized that I should prey for Aid, instead of spiritual weapon. The low HPs really can change the thinking of how I present my cleric.

And I'm sure other classes with low HPs would change their approach to how they play the class in game.

Heh, I'm also thinking a wiz should be a d6. ;)
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Lurker »

For the average cleric, I'd say no. They should be tuff but not as tuff as a fighter.

However, I could see the argument foe a specific priest of a war god ...

3rd level with a total of 8 hp ... :shock: ... are you sure he should be adventuring ? I think he is more a bookish monk than a mace swinging cleric ;)
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Lurker wrote:For the average cleric, I'd say no. They should be tuff but not as tuff as a fighter.

However, I could see the argument foe a specific priest of a war god ...

3rd level with a total of 8 hp ... :shock: ... are you sure he should be adventuring ? I think he is more a bookish monk than a mace swinging cleric ;)
Yep, that's the thing about that cleric with 8 HP. We are playing btb. So, I guess I should have mentioned this.

With all the house rules on rolling up stats, everybody gets fat HPs. Not so, with btb - therefore this discussion.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Ancalagon »

I vote no. Keep clerics at a d8.
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Rhuvein
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Ancalagon wrote:I vote no. Keep clerics at a d8.
What? What would a zombie master know about clerics??

[Heh, pretty much ~ everything!!]

:D
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Lurker »

Rhuvein wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:I vote no. Keep clerics at a d8.
What? What would a zombie master know about clerics??

[Heh, pretty much ~ everything!!]

:D

Yeah, but he will be a spoiler or at least an agent of influence against the clerics, so you have to go against his advice just on principle ! :D
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Arduin »

Not a chance. Using that logic you might as well give a fighter clerical spells to cast.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Arduin wrote:Not a chance. Using that logic you might as well give a fighter clerical spells to cast.
No, not really. The fighter has so many "fighter" abilities that he stands alone as or in his class.

Giving the cleric a higher hit die or more HPs will not make him a better fighter, IMO. Just mebbe, a better survivor! :P
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Captain_K »

No... they can cure and heal.. sort of like infinite HD right there...
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Captain_K wrote:No... they can cure and heal.. sort of like infinite HD right there...
Very, very limited though at low levels, no? Suppose they cure 1 HP per day, due to poor rolling of the die?
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Hmmm, am I being the cleric's devil's advocate?? :P
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Arduin »

Rhuvein wrote:
No, not really. The fighter has so many "fighter" abilities that he stands alone as or in his class.
Yes, really. You are asking to give something from one class to another so as to gain an advantage. So, its logically the same.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Arduin wrote:
Rhuvein wrote:
No, not really. The fighter has so many "fighter" abilities that he stands alone as or in his class.
Yes, really. You are asking to give something from one class to another so as to gain an advantage. So, its logically the same.
Heh, well my thought is to see if there might be a bit of a balance to the degree that one can do so. I realize that the classes are set up in a "balance". But, perhaps some additional tweaking is what I am proposing.

I don't wish to gain an advantage (thinking about the so many ways that a cleric might lose any so called "advantage" if he/she puts themselves at the behest of the party).

So, perhaps it comes down to how a cleric rigs himself up. Does he/she choose those spells and position himself to help the party or watch his own back.

Giving himself up to the party, weakens his own class, IMO (not a bad thing, per se) but if he is required to give himself up to the party and then when his turns fail, and his spell are lost - he then must do the work of fighters - should he not get what he deserves - higher hit die and more HP??
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by mbeacom »

Rhuvein wrote:I many times wonder if they should have a higher hit die.

I play them a lot and have found myself in many situations where . . turning undead fails, spells fail or are resisted and I can't use crossbows.

So I have to go toe to toe with monsters, cause the wizards and rogues are fucking hiding and being piss ants!! :x

What say you?? :)

[Edit . . oh yeah, and the cleric usually has to use spells that heal/benefit the party rather than beef up his own self!]

[Edit 2 - assume a btb roll for HPs or a house rule that doesn't necessarily fatten up their HPs.]
Ahem, pardon me, but if you are a cleric and your turn undead fails, and your spells fail, and your weapons are insufficient, well, guess what? YOU WERE MEANT TO DIE! ;)

Basically, you're asking for more protection and better weapon selection for after all your awesome, unique to cleric stuff fails.

I knew as soon as you said "I play them alot" where this was going. People who play classes a lot tend to notice things as weakness when they are actually just balanced against another characters weakness which are different but similar. If you played a Fighter, you wouldn't be saying "Wow, look at my D10 HD and my Crossbow!". You'd be saying, man this extra attack against 1HD monsters isn't very useful, maybe if I had a heal spell, it would be better."

Don't get me wrong. I totally get what you're saying. But no. The logic just isn't there. They have enough power in other areas, that to buff their HP even more is simply not a good solution. Reading your followup posts, it's clear your issue is with randomly rolled HP, not the die used for Clerics. It's a game rule you don't like, not a class design element. I'll agree 8HP is low for a level 3 cleric, but guess what, you're playing a wimpy cleric. So roleplay them as such. It's what the dice have decreed. If you rolled max and had good con, you'd be playing with a 25+ HP cleric and probably be feeling pretty good amirite? So no, the die size is not the problem It's your crappy rolling. :)

Please don't take this post the wrong way. I was being intentionally sarcastic. In reality, much love to all.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by mbeacom »

Rhuvein wrote:Hmmm, am I being the cleric's devil's advocate?? :P
HA! Love this!
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Captain_K »

you heal a d8, an average of 4.5 and if you roll the same hp then on average you can cure you own hit points many times a day... plus stop those around you from bleeding to death..

If you do any kind of house rules on curing, then likely you cure even more...
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by serleran »

All clerics? No.

Clerics of given faiths, or racial clerics (like a dwarf cleric), possibly.

I do not see an elf cleric of the Lord of the Sliding Hand (a pacifist thief) having d10 HP but I would not mind the half-orc cleric of Foe-Crusher getting it.

That is why I would define clerics by Order. And have 8 or 10 of them.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by mbeacom »

serleran wrote:All clerics? No.

Clerics of given faiths, or racial clerics (like a dwarf cleric), possibly.

I do not see an elf cleric of the Lord of the Sliding Hand (a pacifist thief) having d10 HP but I would not mind the half-orc cleric of Foe-Crusher getting it.

That is why I would define clerics by Order. And have 8 or 10 of them.
Maybe off topic and I don't want to stir the pot but I've never liked the idea of "clerics can be whatever class they want by worshipping the right god". IMO if clerics wants to worship a war(fighter) god or a dark lord (assassin or thief) they should represent this by multiclassing and lose some of their spell ability to compensate for it, rather than getting a domain that gives them even more than they already get.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by serleran »

Who said they wouldn't be multi- or class-and-a-half? It comes down to defining the cleric, and its options, more specifically in the game world. General "cleric" as presented in the PHB is the general cleric in the PHB -- no changes. Add in some faith that gets fighter powers, and there's likely to be some sacrifice entailed, but what that is... is entirely up to the Castle Keeper.

In fact, there may not even be general clerics and all of them are required to multi-class to some degree or other.

I am not a fan of universal faiths -- boring and uninspired. Religions built to satisfy in-game needs = more enjoyment, to me.

The trick is to find what makes your game what it needs to be, whatever that might entail. It's never wrong. Nor is it right for anyone else.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by mbeacom »

serleran wrote:Who said they wouldn't be multi- or class-and-a-half? It comes down to defining the cleric, and its options, more specifically in the game world. General "cleric" as presented in the PHB is the general cleric in the PHB -- no changes. Add in some faith that gets fighter powers, and there's likely to be some sacrifice entailed, but what that is... is entirely up to the Castle Keeper.

In fact, there may not even be general clerics and all of them are required to multi-class to some degree or other.

I am not a fan of universal faiths -- boring and uninspired. Religions built to satisfy in-game needs = more enjoyment, to me.

The trick is to find what makes your game what it needs to be, whatever that might entail. It's never wrong. Nor is it right for anyone else.
My apologies. When you said we should "define clerics by order", that sounded like having lots of different clerics, not leaving clerics alone but use multiclassing to represent different orders.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by concobar »

Hit die should be based on race instead of class.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rigon »

concobar wrote:Hit die should be based on race instead of class.
I agree with this and have thought about adding it to my house rules.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by mbeacom »

concobar wrote:Hit die should be based on race instead of class.
I was of this mind for a while too, and wouldn't freak out of someone wanted to play with such rules. But then I decided that since HP is an abstraction, not just meat (size/strength,etc) that it must come from somewhere else. I decided that somewhere is largely ones training. Fighters are trained to keep their feet longer than someone who spends their time sitting over books or picking pockets for example, meaning a Human wizard or rogue would not (on average) have more HP than a Halfling fighter.

Having said that, my goal is not to dissuade your from you view. I think it's a legit and viable way to look at a game world.
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by tylermo »

With the classes as they are in C&C, I wouldn't raise the cleric to D10.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rigon »

mbeacom wrote:
concobar wrote:Hit die should be based on race instead of class.
I was of this mind for a while too, and wouldn't freak out of someone wanted to play with such rules. But then I decided that since HP is an abstraction, not just meat (size/strength,etc) that it must come from somewhere else. I decided that somewhere is largely ones training. Fighters are trained to keep their feet longer than someone who spends their time sitting over books or picking pockets for example, meaning a Human wizard or rogue would not (on average) have more HP than a Halfling fighter.

Having said that, my goal is not to dissuade your from you view. I think it's a legit and viable way to look at a game world.
I go back and forth in my head about using racial hit dice. I think for me, class HD is what I think of when I think of a class based game and racial HD is what I think of when I think of a skill based gamed.

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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Rhuvein »

Thanks for all the excellent replies!

You've convinced me not to go with a d10!

How about a d9? ;)
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Captain_K »

A table of class and race.. a halfing mage should have less HD than the halfing fighter or Monk... that said,,, CON bonus or plus attempt to do this.. keep in mind HD are highly "theortical" they are how good you are at surviving combat not taking mass damage.... so if HD by race is "mass" or size based then make a starting penalty or bonus and move on. But 10th lvl monks simply know how not to get hurt or tired in combat...

If you want mass or size why not affect the amount the PC can go negative before bad things happen. In my game its your CON in negatives before death that could be modified further by size or mass. Then all PCs have HPs by class and level (training and skill) and survival against damage is base on race or size and mass now some races are tougher than others elves might be less than humans but dwarves might be more and 1/2 orcs even more.. etc. Just noodling here...
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Re: Should clerics have a d10 hit die?

Post by Lurker »

This is off topic, but you all started it ... ;)

That is why I like the idea of Racial Character Classes. That way and elf has the appropriate HD etc etc etc. Then, if you want an elf fighter you have to follow multi class/class & half rules. This will give differential HP as needed.
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