Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

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Captain_K
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Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Captain_K »

Any smart enemy with numbers or "nothing better to do.. than wait" might target spell casters.. in particular hold their initiative waiting for the mage or cleric to "start casting"... thus ensuring their attack (be it hand to hand melee by being right there, half moving in or charging in or even a thrown or readied arrow shot) goes off while the caster is casting.

I'm leaning toward, 1) the hit must be successful, 2) the damage must be greater than 1/10th or 1/20th the casters max h.p. (no stinging bees please) and 3) the attack must break the caster concentration...

The caster gets a "concentration" check or save vs XYZ adding their levelx2 and subtracting the level of the spell being cast, the level or HD of the attacker, and -1 for every point of damage taken (of any type). I'd like to have there be a cumulative -3 for every 25% of the mages max h.p. taken with a max of -9 (-12 being a special case since the caster should be unconscious since its 100% of their hp) instead of -1 per hp of damage.. but I'm not sure, this equation is already getting kind of unwieldy...

The concentration check is per a stat.. I'd like it to be INT for mage/illusionists and WIS for cleric/druids... but it could be CON for all.. not sure.

Finally, if I want my casters, especially druids and clerics in mixing it up in combat and having the most fun, I like the idea of allowing them to keep their dex while casting, just like a BARD can sing or chant while fighting... these guys should be able to cast, walk, and chew gum at the same time... seems to be the bread and butter of Clerics at least.

So, I know this thread will bring out lots of opinions and I hope correctly point me to past threads I cannot find... but I'm looking for input and ideas, nothing wrong with pointing out the book rules strictly or what you do, but I'd like help intentionally heading toward a quick way to settle:
1) intentional attacks on "safe casters" and 2) a functional way to allow for active casting.. I don't mind if its risky, but I would think a 50% chance of failure is just fine, 90% to fail is too much and 10% failure is too little..

Thanks, Captain K
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:Any smart enemy with numbers or "nothing better to do.. than wait" might target spell casters..
I found it easier to just say that since casting a 1 CT spell takes the entire round to cast, such spells go off at the last possible init count (for both sides).
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mmbutter »

From the PHB:
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.
and
A spell that takes one round (CT 1) to cast comes into effect during the caster’s initiative turn for that round.
So, a CT 1 spell is effectively instantaneous.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

mmbutter wrote:From the PHB:
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.
and
A spell that takes one round (CT 1) to cast comes into effect during the caster’s initiative turn for that round.
So, a CT 1 spell is effectively instantaneous.
Or, "Most spells take one round (10 seconds) to cast."

Since I believe that the Trolls didn't intend instantaneous casting (feel free to ask them) so I go with the specific time alloted where they spelled it out in the rules.
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
mmbutter wrote:From the PHB:
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.
and
A spell that takes one round (CT 1) to cast comes into effect during the caster’s initiative turn for that round.
So, a CT 1 spell is effectively instantaneous.
Or, "Most spells take one round (10 seconds) to cast."

Since I believe that the Trolls didn't intend instantaneous casting (feel free to ask them) so I go with the specific time alloted where they spelled it out in the rules.
Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
They went off on the casters initiative, not later in the round.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
They went off on the casters initiative, not later in the round.

R-
So, instantaneous casting. Does he allow movement afterwards (especially on early init roll). And if not, does he explain why the caster is frozen in place?
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
They went off on the casters initiative, not later in the round.

R-
So, instantaneous casting. Does he allow movement afterwards (especially on early init roll). And if not, does he explain why the caster is frozen in place?
If memory serves, he allowed half movement after the spell was cast.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
They went off on the casters initiative, not later in the round.

R-
So, instantaneous casting. Does he allow movement afterwards (especially on early init roll). And if not, does he explain why the caster is frozen in place?
If memory serves, he allowed half movement after the spell was cast.

R-
Cool. So he isn't using the straight casting/caster rules from the PHB but house rules. Not a particularly good way to divine the original intent of the rules. But, maybe a good way to see which way a 2nd Edition might go.
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: Having played in Steve's "Big Game" a time or two at conventions, I know he has casters cast on their initiative. Not at the end of the initiative order. So, if you are on initiative 10, you cast on initiative 10, not 1.

R-
Right. people act on their init. So, were spells instantaneous or did they take time?
They went off on the casters initiative, not later in the round.

R-
So, instantaneous casting. Does he allow movement afterwards (especially on early init roll). And if not, does he explain why the caster is frozen in place?
If memory serves, he allowed half movement after the spell was cast.

R-
Cool. So he isn't using the straight casting/caster rules from the PHB but house rules. Not a particularly good way to divine the original intent of the rules. But, maybe a good way to see which way a 2nd Edition might go.
I think it is the perfect way to divine the intent of the game. If one of the creator's doesn't run it by the book, why should I? Which, every time I've talk to Steve or heard him talk about the rules, is how he wants C&C to be ran; each CK making it their own, not being a slave to the rules or any one person's interpretations of the rules.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote: I think it is the perfect way to divine the intent of the game.
R-
Naw, allowing movement is a complete departure from the written rules. So a house rule of instantaneous casting and movement by the spell caster is no where close.

That would be like saying a house rule that allows fighters to attack, charge double running distance and then attack again is a good measure of the intention of the charging rules...
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: I think it is the perfect way to divine the intent of the game.
R-
Naw, allowing movement is a complete departure from the written rules. So a house rule of instantaneous casting and movement by the spell caster is no where close.

That would be like saying a house rule that allows fighters to attack, charge double running distance and then attack again is a good measure of the intention of the charging rules...
The intent of the game is to play it how you want. So, Steve's rules changes are perfect to demonstrate that intent.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Kayolan »

Some of the wording on the when the spell comes into effect contradict each other. So there apparently is no one way to do it btb in this case. I think it's something that should have been made more clear because it's been something that's come up quite often in rules discussions.

Of all the games I've played in, not one CK has had someone wait until the end of the round for the spell to go off. If I were to judge it by consensus of that fact, I would say that the most btb interpretation is to say it is "spontaneous", even though since it's all an abstraction anyway, one cannot say exactly at what second of time it takes effect, unless of course we start to have 1 second rounds or other units of time measurement. The spell can only be disrupted if someone who has won initiative waits to act or if there is a tie in initiative and one succeeds over the other.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by Captain_K »

Isn't it "before initiative roll you declare casting intent". Thus staring at the highest number (assuming we're counting down and high is faster on the d10 roll) one IS actively casting starting on about 13 or so.. then the spell "goes off" or "takes effect" when the PC's initiative roll comes around. And ends then.. thus the "1 casting time" is say 13 down to whatever they rolled....let's make it a 7 for this example... after the spell goes off in 7 and the PC is "taking their turn" for something like "shooting a magic missile at the orc 20 feet in front of the PC" he can then half move after spell casting to back further away from the fighting (assuming a half move is allowed after spell casting). So I think that's pretty close to by the book and nothing is instant.. it takes time... but don't the book also says.. " it kind of all happens at once anyway".. so I agree with the "its confusing".. which is why I started the string... I've got a Monk Illusionist who really wants to roll those dice on casting in hand to hand...
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mbeacom »

My take has always been that the spell takes time. From just prior to init roll (declare) to the result of your init die. So the casting takes time and finishes on your turn. I've never viewed this method as instantaneous casting because it allows for interruption any time the caster is attacked prior to his coming up in the init order. To me, in this case, all qualifications are met. The initiative roll result basically demonstrates how quickly you act in that round. Each player, in their way, spends one round on their action. But the moment it occurs is managed by the die roll and thusly informs the narrative. I don't think anyone imagines that people are standing around doing nothing after their turn comes up. It's all fluid and each action is how they spend their one round of action. So a caster spends their round casting a CT1 spell and it completes on their initiative. This meets the criteria of a spell having a CT of 1 (because the caster spends their entire round casting it). It meets the criteria for having it happen on their initiative. And it meets the criteria for potential interruption. I'm not gonna fight that this is perfectly btb because as others have said, it is reads a bit vague and other people can read it differently as it makes sense to them. But to me, this is the only way that doesn't conflict with any of the printed references to casting.
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mmbutter »

mbeacom wrote:But to me, this is the only way that doesn't conflict with any of the printed references to casting.
It conflicts with this statement in the PHB:
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mbeacom »

mmbutter wrote:
mbeacom wrote:But to me, this is the only way that doesn't conflict with any of the printed references to casting.
It conflicts with this statement in the PHB:
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.
If you keep reading, it appears to me that sentence is referencing the actual details of the spell. In the declaration phase (before init is rolled), I only require (and the PHB in a following paragraph say MOST CK's require) that to cast a specific spell or not be declared, not all the details(those get announced on your init turn per the rules). Those are what I think it is stating (the full intentions) are required on your initiative turn. As I said, it's slightly vague and people can probably read it more than one way.
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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mmbutter »

mbeacom wrote:If you keep reading, it appears to me that sentence is referencing the actual details of the spell. In the declaration phase (before init is rolled), I only require (and the PHB in a following paragraph say MOST CK's require) that to cast a specific spell or not be declared, not all the details(those get announced on your init turn per the rules). Those are what I think it is stating (the full intentions) are required on your initiative turn. As I said, it's slightly vague and people can probably read it more than one way.
If I keep reading, it doesn't say that the spell had to be pre-declared, it only says that the player has to declare his intent to cast a spell during his initiative turn (you're moving the "declaration" part to the Initiative phase). This is further bolstered by the fact that there is no comment about declaring anything during the Initiative phase other than initiative order. Also, there is no "Declaration phase" in combat (are you thinking of a different game?) - there is only "Surprise" (just once before combat begins), "Initiative", and "Combat Actions".

And the following statement makes it pretty clear that a spell with CT 1 is effectively instantaneous:
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes during the time when the character starts and completes a spell (for a spell with a casting time of more than one full round).
This pretty explicitly says that spells with a CT of 1 can't be interrupted.

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Re: Casting in Combat or getting targetted while casting...

Post by mbeacom »

mmbutter wrote:
mbeacom wrote:If you keep reading, it appears to me that sentence is referencing the actual details of the spell. In the declaration phase (before init is rolled), I only require (and the PHB in a following paragraph say MOST CK's require) that to cast a specific spell or not be declared, not all the details(those get announced on your init turn per the rules). Those are what I think it is stating (the full intentions) are required on your initiative turn. As I said, it's slightly vague and people can probably read it more than one way.
If I keep reading, it doesn't say that the spell had to be pre-declared, it only says that the player has to declare his intent to cast a spell during his initiative turn (you're moving the "declaration" part to the Initiative phase). This is further bolstered by the fact that there is no comment about declaring anything during the Initiative phase other than initiative order. Also, there is no "Declaration phase" in combat (are you thinking of a different game?) - there is only "Surprise" (just once before combat begins), "Initiative", and "Combat Actions".

And the following statement makes it pretty clear that a spell with CT 1 is effectively instantaneous:
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes during the time when the character starts and completes a spell (for a spell with a casting time of more than one full round).
This pretty explicitly says that spells with a CT of 1 can't be interrupted.
I don't see that as explicit regarding anything other than the spells they mention. those with a casting time of more than 1 round. The assumption is that other spells would act according to the previously stated rules.

With regard to declaring, I was referring to this passage

"Most Castle Keepers make you announce at the beginning
of the round whether you are going to cast a spell. If so, and
you roll a low initiative roll, then you have a chance of being
struck before the spell goes off."

To me, that is far more explicit with regard to CT1 spells (because greater than CT1 spells wouldn't go of in that period between beginning of round and initiative order as mentioned happens for most CKs). Unless you assume this translates to "Most Castle Keepers do not play by the rules."

I don't. I take this to mean, "This is how most Castles Keepers apply the rules we've written.". I'm in that group of Castle Keepers.

But again. I'll reiterate. I think this is open to interpretation. If you want instantaneous casting, and don't want to allow the interruption specifically stated is mandated by "Most" CK's, that's perfectly alright. We are encouraged to make the rules our own. And I think they leave verbiage in such that people can see the game they want to see. Which, to me, is awesome. I get that some people are put off by it, but I'm not at all.

What I'm saying is that I don't think you're doing it wrong. :)
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