Charm vs. Sword dominance

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ChaosImp
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Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by ChaosImp »

Hi ya

What would be your decision where the character had a intelligent sword with a pretty high ego score, and during the adventure the character was charmed by a vampire. Who would be in control? The vampire or the sword. This did happen once a few years ago and it was a bit of a problem, the character was in the middle of a tug of war match between the two. In the end I think what we did was have the vampire in control one round and the sword the next. I thought I would post this to get your thoughts in-case it happens again.

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Imp

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Arduin
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Arduin »

ChaosImp wrote:Hi ya

What would be your decision where the character had a intelligent sword with a pretty high ego score, and during the adventure the character was charmed by a vampire. Who would be in control? The vampire or the sword. This did happen once a few years ago and it was a bit of a problem, the character was in the middle of a tug of war match between the two. In the end I think what we did was have the vampire in control one round and the sword the next. I thought I would post this to get your thoughts in-case it happens again.

Cheers
Imp
Simply use the mechanism for intelligent items. A Char based check Item vs. Vampire. BTW, the type of control isn't the same between the two...
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by ChaosImp »

So if the character fails the charisma save vs. the sword he is then under the swords control, but if he has already failed the vampire charm he's still charmed. The types of control are similar as they are both forms of mental dominance. I guess in the end its really between the sword and vampire as the character as the pawn. What I could do is have the vampire do some sort of check to see if he can overwhelm the swords dominance.

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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Arduin »

ChaosImp wrote:So if the character fails the charisma save vs. the sword he is then under the swords control, but if he has already failed the vampire charm he's still charmed.
Yep, one does not dispel the other. If both were active it would be a check between the two controlling parties as to who has control at that moment.
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Captain_K
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

How does one get a sword one cannot control? Seems too powerful.. but it sounds like even at full h.p. the PC cannot control the sword. If that is the case then the Player is really playing the sword? Or the Players is forced to always do a few things the sword insists on, but other than that the PC plays at all the other times... Unless the sword is in opposition to the vampire, then would not the sword simply be against the vampire at the right times... This assumes the vampire has taken over the control of the player all the time. What does the vampire want the PC to do? Does the sword care? Swords, sorry the pun, always seem rather one dimensional as "beings"... depending on how or what they are... are they sentient swords with the wants and thoughts of a sword made smart or are they some other creature's soul locked into a sword in which case then it is the "former soul" against the PC/vampire.

Sounds like it could be fun, a three way tug of war.. does the PC have any hope of control? Few PCs can play three masters... and few CKs want to keep taking over PCs.. PCs likely do not like that.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:How does one get a sword one cannot control? Seems too powerful..
It's easy if you read the rules you'll see that it is a CHA based situation. MOST fighters don't have that as a Prime... :shock:
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

So the super rare intelligent magic sword is likely to take over the PC... wow.. great power, but no control.... sounds like a two edged sword! sorry I could not help that..

I have given out so few magic items, none of which have been intelligent... sounds like paladins and knights should get the intelligent swords.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:So the super rare intelligent magic sword is likely to take over the PC...
You act like you have never heard of this before. It has been this way since AD&D. Hasn't changed...
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Treebore »

One is Charm, the other is complete control. I'd say the Sword wins.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

I recall the super rare INT "sword" but I believe it rarely took over PCs of reasonable level unless they were down in hit points and normally the sword had the same or close alignment to the user.. thus I know we had the occasional INT sword but it rarely if ever matter when it ever so rarely took over the PC and even if it did, it was similarly aligned and thus being "good" it wanted its wielder back at full HP.

The pure CHA roll must be CnC or very new to higher levels of DnD, I do not recall that.. I kind of recall in ADD it was some kind combination of level, INT, and some other stat... but you usually only lost the battle at low HPs.

Anyway, I rarely give out any kind of powerful MIs and I have not given out an INT (non-cursed) blade in 20 years... I never bothered to read the CnC rules because at this point it has not/will not matter.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Treebore »

Captain_K wrote:I recall the super rare INT "sword" but I believe it rarely took over PCs of reasonable level unless they were down in hit points and normally the sword had the same or close alignment to the user.. thus I know we had the occasional INT sword but it rarely if ever matter when it ever so rarely took over the PC and even if it did, it was similarly aligned and thus being "good" it wanted its wielder back at full HP.

The pure CHA roll must be CnC or very new to higher levels of DnD, I do not recall that.. I kind of recall in ADD it was some kind combination of level, INT, and some other stat... but you usually only lost the battle at low HPs.

Anyway, I rarely give out any kind of powerful MIs and I have not given out an INT (non-cursed) blade in 20 years... I never bothered to read the CnC rules because at this point it has not/will not matter.

Yeah, 1E AD&D has the EGO system to determine if the sword could take control.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:I recall the super rare INT "sword" but I believe it rarely took over PCs of reasonable level unless they were down in hit points and normally
Medium powerful ones (see what abilities they had) had a good chance of overpowering fighter types. The reason? Because the PC personality str was determined by INT, CHA, & Level. Hardly the best stats for most fighter types excepting a Paladin.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

So I pulled out the old AD&D DMG, my memory was correct, it is NOT easy for even a 90% INT magic sword to take over even an average fighter. Now, can a "super sword" do it, sure. If you roll 99 or 100% followed by another 100% then you have a powerful sword. So unless the DMs of old fudged all their INT magic sword rolls or simply wanted to create "artifact like swords" for fun or purpose in the game. The average 1st level fighter with 10.5 INT and CHA had an "EGO" of 22 points. The "always rolling 90%" unusual sword is a 14 INT with 2 primary abilities (locate object in a 24" R), speaks Neutral Good plus 4 languages. This sword would have a 14 INT and a +5 to +9 EGO (assuming its a magic +1 to +5 sword). Lets give it a +3 about the most I liked PCs to see to avoid bloating bonuses to hit. So a 7 EGO. Thus the Sword had a 21 "personality" which is just one shy of the 1st level fighter.. never to be taken over. Swing that a few points and you could take over the fighter when he's low on HPs assuming your fighter is totally average on INT and CHA. As you note, make that a Paladin or any level of INT or CHA above average and quickly only the most earth shattering relic like blades can take over even a first level sword user, most would never be first level to have such a blade.

So my memory is not far off for even the 90% sword, I would declare 9 out of 10 unusual (INT) swords being unable to get even an average 1st level fighter as "NOT a GOOD" chance.
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by serleran »

The best thing about intelligent swords, especially those of a different alignment than their would-be wielder, was the damage delivered simply by contact. Add in any special purposes (which has a modifier to ego, though I don't recall the number...) and it quickly becomes the weapon able to dominate all but the most powerful of enemies, and guaranteed over time without some sort of massive regenerative effect.

Granted, these are exceptional and beyond rare. But fun.

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UPDATED: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

Not sure if this needs a new thread, but this one seems pretty dead anyway, I've been thinking about this thread, and wondering why I have not included any INT weapons, I like not limiting it to Long Swords or swords only for that matter, and I want to include one soon, but I want it to "exist for or by a reason"... so the thought of how does the thing become INT matters... Since my CKG is on loan, the following is old ADD "facts": Since 3/4 of all magic swords are not INT. and when they are they are 12 to 16 INT with 1-3 abilities and likely some way to communicate. Prime abilities are not that amazing, mainly detect stuff. So with that as the frame, does it just happen? Does the creator of the weapon cause it? OR is the magic item growing with time becoming more INT with the centuries, picking up abilities, or finally is there somehow a trapped soul or personality in the magic item.. its first user upon his death becomes part of the blade.. I like the later for good INT items and as each user dies with the blade another rank is picked up on the INT table and the abilities should be prime from the wielder. Ex The 23rd lvl ranger dies in battle with his blade and the sword gains some INT with the ability to detect natural large traps (from the ranger) and the alignment of the sword shifts to CG of the ranger from NG of the initial fighter.. something like that..

Thoughts?
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Re: UPDATED: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Lurker »

Captain_K wrote:
... So with that as the frame, does it just happen? Does the creator of the weapon cause it? OR is the magic item growing with time becoming more INT with the centuries, picking up abilities, or finally is there somehow a trapped soul or personality in the magic item.. its first user upon his death becomes part of the blade.. I like the later for good INT items and as each user dies with the blade another rank is picked up on the INT table and the abilities should be prime from the wielder. Ex The 23rd lvl ranger dies in battle with his blade and the sword gains some INT with the ability to detect natural large traps (from the ranger) and the alignment of the sword shifts to CG of the ranger from NG of the initial fighter.. something like that..

Thoughts?
I may not be the norm ( I readily admidt to being 'aby-normal' :) )but that is exactly how I like creating my powerful magic items. Back when I DMed, I'd have 'normal' magic items simply created - say something like a +1 - +3ish, and a few minor abilities: bane, detect, glow etc.

However, anything bigger and better grew into it.

Say a +1, +3 vs undead was created to help a town that had a problem with ghouls etc. It was used by 2 generations of fighters, then passed to a paladin, it grows into a +2 +4 vs evil, & gives a +3 to the paladin's turn undead. Then the paladin's friend is tempted by a succubus. The paladin is slain defending his friend from the demons it gates into the fight. The sword is delivered to a temple and now has detect lies & true sight, and the start of an int/ego. And the process can go on and on until you have an epic 'holy avenger' with a great story behind it.

That said, I truly enjoy how Rigon is running his Monday night game. We haven't simply found any magic weapon. They were either taken off a key enemy after a fight - and the bad guy was using it, or they are growing from our masterwork weapons from our back story. With that, even if he dropped a better sword in front of my character, I'd keep my sword because of the background and its growing powers. I can't say everyone is like me on that in the party but I'd be willing to bet that some if not all are.
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Re: UPDATED: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by maximus »

Lurker wrote:
Captain_K wrote:
... So with that as the frame, does it just happen? Does the creator of the weapon cause it? OR is the magic item growing with time becoming more INT with the centuries, picking up abilities, or finally is there somehow a trapped soul or personality in the magic item.. its first user upon his death becomes part of the blade.. I like the later for good INT items and as each user dies with the blade another rank is picked up on the INT table and the abilities should be prime from the wielder. Ex The 23rd lvl ranger dies in battle with his blade and the sword gains some INT with the ability to detect natural large traps (from the ranger) and the alignment of the sword shifts to CG of the ranger from NG of the initial fighter.. something like that..

Thoughts?
I may not be the norm ( I readily admidt to being 'aby-normal' :) )but that is exactly how I like creating my powerful magic items. Back when I DMed, I'd have 'normal' magic items simply created - say something like a +1 - +3ish, and a few minor abilities: bane, detect, glow etc.

However, anything bigger and better grew into it.

Say a +1, +3 vs undead was created to help a town that had a problem with ghouls etc. It was used by 2 generations of fighters, then passed to a paladin, it grows into a +2 +4 vs evil, & gives a +3 to the paladin's turn undead. Then the paladin's friend is tempted by a succubus. The paladin is slain defending his friend from the demons it gates into the fight. The sword is delivered to a temple and now has detect lies & true sight, and the start of an int/ego. And the process can go on and on until you have an epic 'holy avenger' with a great story behind it.

That said, I truly enjoy how Rigon is running his Monday night game. We haven't simply found any magic weapon. They were either taken off a key enemy after a fight - and the bad guy was using it, or they are growing from our masterwork weapons from our back story. With that, even if he dropped a better sword in front of my character, I'd keep my sword because of the background and its growing powers. I can't say everyone is like me on that in the party but I'd be willing to bet that some if not all are.
How are the weapons growing in power? I'm looking for a more interesting way to introduce better weapons into my game.

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Re: UPDATED: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Lurker »

maximus wrote:
How are the weapons growing in power? I'm looking for a more interesting way to introduce better weapons into my game.

For me I'd make it part of the 'role playing' story element. For the above example, say the low level paladin finds the sword in the grave yard where the previous owner fell. He feels the innate power in the sword, but also there is a touch of evil taint from being surrounded by ghouls weights etc. So, in conjunction with him gaining a level for killing the undead, he spends a night a day and another night fasting and praying at a shrine. This removes the taint and imbeds it with greater 'good' power. Thus making it +2 +4vs evil and then keeping the undead element alive giving it the benefit to turning.

Life goes on the paladin does paladin things and then the succumbs event mentioned. The paladin sacrifices himself in a forlorn hope fight which allows his friend to break free of the temptress' power. This sacrifice catches the attention of an angle or some such. It returns the sword to the paladin's temple. However, in the sacrifice a shred of the paladin's soul ties to the sword. Thus introducing the int/ego into the sword. Plus, say the angle or the paladin (however you want to explain it) gets the ability to detect lies & true - from fighting the fight against the demoness' plans and lies.

Another example, my sword from Rigon. I had a masterwork sword with a good family backstory, but no power ot of the masterworkness of the blade. My first adventure was clearing a temple. It happened to be an abandoned temple of one of the 2 gods he worshiped. He was actually devout - despite being a swashbuckler instead of my normal paladin - and gave appropriate prayers thanks etc to the god a critical junctures in the temple. We were able to clear out the temple. Part of it was me having a dream that the statue we took shelter around - it was a holy site that the orcs and undead couldn't get to - came to life and asked to see my sword. It complemented me on its quality and offered it back to me. When I awoke, it glowed blue. It also now isn't just masterwork but has a bless effect on it.
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Re: UPDATED: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by maximus »

Lurker wrote:
maximus wrote:
How are the weapons growing in power? I'm looking for a more interesting way to introduce better weapons into my game.

For me I'd make it part of the 'role playing' story element. For the above example, say the low level paladin finds the sword in the grave yard where the previous owner fell. He feels the innate power in the sword, but also there is a touch of evil taint from being surrounded by ghouls weights etc. So, in conjunction with him gaining a level for killing the undead, he spends a night a day and another night fasting and praying at a shrine. This removes the taint and imbeds it with greater 'good' power. Thus making it +2 +4vs evil and then keeping the undead element alive giving it the benefit to turning.

Life goes on the paladin does paladin things and then the succumbs event mentioned. The paladin sacrifices himself in a forlorn hope fight which allows his friend to break free of the temptress' power. This sacrifice catches the attention of an angle or some such. It returns the sword to the paladin's temple. However, in the sacrifice a shred of the paladin's soul ties to the sword. Thus introducing the int/ego into the sword. Plus, say the angle or the paladin (however you want to explain it) gets the ability to detect lies & true - from fighting the fight against the demoness' plans and lies.

Another example, my sword from Rigon. I had a masterwork sword with a good family backstory, but no power ot of the masterworkness of the blade. My first adventure was clearing a temple. It happened to be an abandoned temple of one of the 2 gods he worshiped. He was actually devout - despite being a swashbuckler instead of my normal paladin - and gave appropriate prayers thanks etc to the god a critical junctures in the temple. We were able to clear out the temple. Part of it was me having a dream that the statue we took shelter around - it was a holy site that the orcs and undead couldn't get to - came to life and asked to see my sword. It complemented me on its quality and offered it back to me. When I awoke, it glowed blue. It also now isn't just masterwork but has a bless effect on it.
I like this theme. The party has another foray or two before they clear out the Caverns of Chaos. They recently captured the high priest, so I may be able to incorporate some backstory into a few weapons they found, but haven't identified yet. Thanks for the advice!

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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by serleran »

For what its worth, I don't limit intelligent magic items to weapons, and certainly not to swords. A player in my game recently found a suit of enchanted intelligent armor and we had, in the last game, a walking, semi-intelligent treasure chest (inspired by The Luggage from Discworld.)

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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

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serleran wrote:... and we had, in the last game, a walking, semi-intelligent treasure chest (inspired by The Luggage from Discworld.)


I love that luggage!
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by Captain_K »

We've had in the long ago past an highly intelligent (and very evil) dirk, a smart ass helmet, a aligned and growing powered trident that would "free the trapped soul" if the user gained 10 lvls with the trident as primary weapon. And I think a "cursed" cap of infravision that cause multiple personality disorder and thus "Stash" the thief became Homie the Illusionist, Derek the Monk, and I think one other, the cap was clearly powerful and sort of in charge.. but not really..

Yep, I fully agree, do not limit things to long swords..
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Re: Charm vs. Sword dominance

Post by BudaZoa »

In the 1ed module S2 White Plume Mountain ,(which is one of the best modules ever made) the was a sword by the name of Blackrazor. Maybe some of the oldschooler DM's remember it.

It was very easy to have the sword dominate it wielder if the character wasn't evil and on top of feeding the sword.

Blackrazor:
+3, Int17 ego16, alignment CN
Powers:
- speech & telepathy
- detects living creatures 60'r
- haste 1/day for 10 rounds
- 100% magic resistance to charm and fear - that's old-style MR based on caster level.

When you kill someone, your effective level for combat purposes increased by their hit dice, and you add their base hit points to yours. These bonuses last for a number of turns equal to the number of levels received.

Ego increases by 1 point every three days it doesn't kill someone until it can force the wielder to do so.


This sword could easily take over a PC's mind. I have DM's several campaigns where it has.
I'd rather be hated for who I am

Than loved for who I am not.

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