Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

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BudaZoa
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Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by BudaZoa »

Normally when I am CK'n in recent years I am not concerned with my players even picking an alignment. I rather go by how a character has chosen to play off his character and stays within his character. With certain exception: paladin, character worshiping a certain deity , etc.. BUT as of late deities and divine service have come into my recent campaign and have kinda force alignment restrictions to a point on certain characters.

Now, with that in mind, I am still allowing freedoms of characters in regards to playing their characters, some have had their characters in the campaign for over a year at this point and have distinctive behavior patterns and have been placed in divine service. These characters have acted against the ways of this divine being, acted rashly after divine warnings and out of character for their class and their self-played alignments.

Here is my dilemma, I have several rulings from older systems on these actions but they aren't really applicable to C&C. What kinda rulings does C&C have for such situations? Older additions of AD&D (1ed and 2ed had spelled this out) had some classes defined on what happens when this occurs.

Obvious the loss of divine powers (granted through service of said deity) to start, none are clerics or paladins to penalize in standard such ways. In short both are monks. Monks are loosely defined in C&C.

Input is welcomed.
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Arduin
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Arduin »

In my game it only matters (except for divine type classes) when they need some divine service. Like healing, raise dead, etc. In my world Paladins and good clerics cannot heal or raise evil entities. So, a player can declare that their PC is of X alignment but I as the CK determine what the actual alignment is based on what they do.
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Go0gleplex
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Well, as you stated, divine spell casters and paladins begin losing abilities and upper level spells since their faith is the direct source of those particular items.

If you really need to penalize non-divine classes (why, I don't know)...What you can do as an across the board penalty is nerf experience point gains. So someone with a minor infraction might earn only 90-95% of XP vs others. A major infraction might only earn 50-80% of XP. Or however you cook to order there. This gets around the fact that other classes abilities are not related to their deities. You can also use this as sort of a warning for the divine classes too before starting to nerf their abilities and spells. While technically not BTB, it makes it a bit more fair across the board should multiple characters be slapped; ie. they aren't the only ones losing abilities right off the bat.
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BudaZoa
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by BudaZoa »

Really ?

Alignment has been that simplified in C&C ?

In older additions of ad&d penalties were harsh, resulting in higher XP to attain next levels, loss of certain class abilities, etc... , regardless of divine relation to the class itself.

I am similar when it comes to alignments in most cases. I don't make PC's choose and base ith upon actions through character development, actions and growth.
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BudaZoa
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by BudaZoa »

I do like this simplified approach, it does make this situation easier.

Makes sense with C&C game structure, being light on rules as it is.
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serleran
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by serleran »

In my game, it varies on how much we want alignment to matter.

One general sort of punishment is that all casters lose their highest-level spells and cannot cast any spell with an effect specifically against their former alignment for one full level -- that is, if you were lawful good and become lawful evil, you cannot use a spell like protection from good for 1 level.

Non-casters are unable to be healed by anyone of their former alignment until atonement has been made. If its even possible to atone and it is often not.

BudaZoa
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by BudaZoa »

BudaZoa wrote: BUT as of late deities and divine service have come into my recent campaign and have kinda force alignment restrictions to a point on certain characters.

Now, with that in mind, I am still allowing freedoms of characters in regards to playing their characters, some have had their characters in the campaign for over a year at this point and have distinctive behavior patterns and have been placed in divine service. These characters have acted against the ways of this divine being, acted rashly after divine warnings and out of character for their class and their self-played alignments.

Obvious the loss of divine powers (granted through service of said deity) to start, none are clerics or paladins to penalize in standard such ways. In short both are monks. Monks are loosely defined in C&C.

Input is welcomed.

To clarify a bit, these characters have taken it upon themselves to spread the word of this divine being in a realm where no gods have any power. Also in this realm, there are few clerics and even fewer wizards. In return for creating temples, recruiting many worshipers, this god granted many within the campaign divine powers not normally allowed by the classes. The monks in our group have broken alignment barriers as well as went against what should have been obvious signs of their chosen deity. I have already decided upon loss of all granted divine powers to the offenders, that is in direct action against beliefs of the god. This doesn't reflect the actual penalty for broken alignment.

This the question posed.

Normally, in normal circumstances I wouldn't care about said actions but this one is quite unique. And there are no rulings for broken alignments in C&C. I read into this too much as the answer might be as simple as... there is no penalty due to it being a light rules system, or is there something coming out, do other people incorporate house rulings on such matters in their campaigns...

I am enjoying this discussion so far, but after reading some responses it lead me to believe I wasn't really clear on my question.

I am however leaning toward no real penalty for a light rules system. I do like the "Non-casters are unable to be healed by anyone of their former alignment until atonement has been made. If its even possible to atone and it is often not."

And naturally there will be a chance for atonement, the offenders are good roleplayer who lost their minds in the heat of the moment.
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Buttmonkey
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Buttmonkey »

I wouldn't impose any mechanical penalty on the PCs. Particularly in a campaign where the players don't even designate an alignment, I don't think it's a good idea to suddenly start imposing XP penalties. I would treat this more from a story perspective. Characters in books/movies don't suddenly lose their natural abilities when they turn evil or become reformed. Instead, the story evolves to reflect their changed behavior (i.e., you now have lots of fuel for new campaign plots). The consequences to the PCs' behavior should be loss of special abilities granted by the deity as well as the deity doing things to get revenge against the PCs for turning on the deity. That's much more fun than screwing them on their XP accumulation (no one wants the GM to sit around passing judgment on how well they role played their PCs; there's a reason why C&C and probably every other RPG since 1979 does not adopt the rules from the 1E DMG requiring the GM to rate the players' performance each session and factor that into the difficulty of training to a higher experience level). Your players will be much happier when assassins devoted to the deity start coming after them than they would be having their PCs' nerfed because you disagree with them on how they should play their characters. Oh, and curses are a good option. Which makes for a better game: the PC loses 15% of all XP gained or a mark of shame appears on the PC's forehead for all to see?
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BudaZoa
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by BudaZoa »

I already have twists of fate coming in the near future for the characters.

I was not going to be a tyrant CK and make the game not fun for characters, since there are already things in motion as a consequence to their actions.

I was curious as to how C&C ruled on such matters as there was no topics in any of the books I own on this matter. I should have realized that was the intent, that aspect of gaming past was thrown out the window.

I must admit, I am enjoying the responses on how other CK's deal with such instances.

can't be healed from similar alignments of the deity, curses, and assassins. Assassins are not appropriate for this deity, and I am using 1ed assassination chart instead of death blow from C&C, won't be fun if I did that.
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Arduin
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Arduin »

Per the PHB clerics and druids have to be the same alignment as their deity. They have to follow the rules for that deity (as set out by the CK). It is wide open as to how you rule it. As for other PC's? Common sense should prevail. How many people do you know that are upstanding citizens one day and homicidal maniacs the next? What happens to those people in society? Etc.
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Go0gleplex
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Arduin wrote: How many people do you know that are upstanding citizens one day and homicidal maniacs the next? What happens to those people in society? Etc.
That's EASY. They get elected into congress or the white house. :lol:

back on topic. :mrgreen:
My game is a bit more straight forward in that there are only three deities. One good, one nature, and the guy lurking with the cockroaches. The good guy church has a schism going currently and that god sends angels after your arse if you misbehave to badly or betray him/his church. The neutral nature lady has aspects that pay a visit and knock you about a bit or lecture you and the shady guy...well. He'll kill you! (best Achmed the Dead Terrorist immitation I can muster). Alignment is more of a general guideline than a rule, so Good does good things (mostly), Neutral goes with the flow, and Evil...anything goes.


My comments earlier were simply ideas. :)
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Captain_K
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Captain_K »

If monks pissed off divine beings, make it personal where those annoyed, snubbed, etc. get even through no communication, holding back or delaying help, a nice mild divine curse like bleeding palms or terrible blisters which slow move to half and make shoes impossible to wear, terrible gas and BO attracts flies or stingy wasps.. that's minor divine retribution.. I would make it seem unlucky at first getting worse and slowly hint that all the unluck is not natural nor is it mundane or archaic.. but divine.. if that does not work just step up the badness till the PC monks, or better still, the party members make the "bad monks" kiss and make up with their divine benefactors.. nothing like peer pressure. No matter what, work it into the game to add fun, get your point across, and not make more work for yourself.. exp docking is work for you..
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Boot Knife
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Boot Knife »

Perhaps the divine being could interfere with the PC's short term objectives. Kinda like how the Greek Gods toy with Hercules and others.
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Buttmonkey
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by Buttmonkey »

Captain_K wrote:if that does not work just step up the badness till the PC monks, or better still, the party members make the "bad monks" kiss and make up with their divine benefactors.. nothing like peer pressure.
I'd allow the renegade PCs to switch to worshipping a new deity as a way of relieving the divine curse aspects. The new god can wipe the curse out. That doesn't mean the old god will stop sending things to kill or punish the PCs, though (at least not for a while).
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koralas
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by koralas »

We have always played alignments as a guideline not a hard line. That is the alignment is the general world view of the character, not every single action fits in the alignment chosen, but in general they should. Actions that are diametrically opposed to your alignment, or prolonged actions against your alignment, can bring penalties, depending on the severity and situation. Now there are additional restrictions for Paladins and Clerics, based on what their class is. Clerics must follow the tenets of their deity or suffer consequences, slow XP, being quested, spells not working, or in the worst a visit from agents of the god. The Paladin has to follow not only the tenets of the chosen deity, but also the Paladin's restrictions. Other characters will still have deities, and must not act in opposition to their deity, nor have egregious or prolonged alignment violations, or they also will be affected, slow XP most generally. Out right alignment change results in greater detrimental effects, from as little as freezing XP for a period of time (usually lifted via a quest being completed), to losing a level of experience. Clerics, if the new AL is not allowed by their deity, will have to find a new deity to server, and will loose 2 levels, not gain new XP, and will need to quest to prove themselves to their new deity. Once they prove themselves, the new deity restores their lost levels, they are placed 1xp short of the next level, and are granted a boon of some sort. If the AL is allowed by their deity, they earn 80% of gained xp until they complete a quest.

serleran
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Re: Penalty for Breaking Alignment.

Post by serleran »

Another option we have bandied about: pay the Castle Keeper $1. Per hour.

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