Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribute?

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
vivsavage
Red Cap
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:00 am

Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribute?

Post by vivsavage »

I'm not keen on humans having 3 primes. I would rather they have two, just like every other race. Humans are probably younger than other races when beginning their careers, so having more primes doesn't really make sense to me. What do you think would be a good alternative? All I can think of is giving humans a +10% bonus on all experience points received. That would seem to reflect the concept of humans being able to learn quickly. Thoughts?

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Arduin »

Your idea probably best reflects, and is most simple to implement vis-a-vis humans learning faster.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Captain_K »

Skills, crafts, social cooperation, loved by all... a bonus in their class that is fixed like a +1 to something within their class. Bonus to stats to place as they like.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

shadow
Skobbit
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:50 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by shadow »

I thought about giving all humans a 10% bonus to xp. That would reflect humans being quicker to learn and adapt to new situations ].

User avatar
Aramis
Lore Drake
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Aramis »

vivsavage wrote:I'm not keen on humans having 3 primes. I would rather they have two, just like every other race. Humans are probably younger than other races when beginning their careers, so having more primes doesn't really make sense to me. What do you think would be a good alternative? All I can think of is giving humans a +10% bonus on all experience points received. That would seem to reflect the concept of humans being able to learn quickly. Thoughts?
A third prime is a pretty big advantage. I'm not sure a 10% xp bonus is sufficient (1 extra level every 10 levels) but perhaps your campaigns are very long lived

What about a "fast learner" advantage?

A Human can choose from:

a) a +1 on all saves

or

b) a +1 on all skill checks

or

c) one extra spell/day at their highest cast spell level

or

d) a +1 to hit/damage with one weapon type


Then watch everybody line up to be a "boring" human ;)

koralas
Ulthal
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by koralas »

Aramis wrote:A third prime is a pretty big advantage. I'm not sure a 10% xp bonus is sufficient (1 extra level every 10 levels) but perhaps your campaigns are very long lived
Actually this is not really the way it would work. Take a Fighter of 11th level, the minimum required is 750,001, the character that earns a 10% bonus to XP only needs 681820, since the bonus XP will be 68182, this makes the total XP 750,002.

All the 10% bonus does is let the character gain a level slightly faster than their non-human companions, it provides no real improvement in the long run. So in the following, the character with the 10% bonus needs to earn XP as shown, in parenthesis is what XP is required by level.
1st level - 0
2nd level - 1,820 (2,001)
3rd level - 3,638 (4,001)
4th level - 7,729 (8,501)
5th level - 15,456 (17,001)
etc.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, the 10% bonus certainly is NOT equivalent to having the third Prime. 30 to 40% would be in the ball park.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Captain_K »

I like where Aramis is going. Racial abilities are little mini powers and bonuses to things your race is good at or typically most skilled. Thus since we keep assuming that humans "learn faster than all the other races" (where did this ever start?), why not pull together a host of options for humans? First option is by the book:
A) You get a third prime.
B) You get two half primes instead of your third prime.
C) You get on half prime and two of the human racial abilities listed below plus your normal two primes.
D) Take any four of the following (repeats are not allowed):
1) +3 to any 3 categories of saves.
2) Master an additional profession outside your class.
3) Linguist, know 2-5 languages (select half CK determines the rest).
4) Enemy: Pick a race, creature, small class of creatures, or cultural group to be your nemesis (CK approval required); +1 to all rolls against but -1 to deal fairly or rationally with or concerning (bigoted).
5) Fast Learner: Able to learn new languages, skills, spells, abilities and tools in half the normal time (this includes spells memorization and prayer??).
6) Mastery: You may gain a +1 to all things concerning one ability within your class (turning undead, swinging a bastard sword, picking pockets, tracking, saves vs illusionist spells, etc.)
7) You may gain one minor class ability outside your class; selection at CK discretion.
8) You may increase one physical attribute by +1 when you decrease another physical attribute by one OR you may increase one mental attribute by +1 when you decrease another mental attribute by one (18 is the limit for any increase).
9) You may increase one physical attribute by +2 when you decrease another physical attribute by two and one mental attribute by one OR you may increase one mental attribute by +2 when you decrease another mental attribute by two and one physical attribute by one (19 is the limit for any increase).
10) You gain experience at a 10% higher rate.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

vivsavage
Red Cap
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by vivsavage »

Treebore wrote:Yeah, the 10% bonus certainly is NOT equivalent to having the third Prime. 30 to 40% would be in the ball park.
What about allowing humans to receive fortune points/luck points/fate points (whatever you want to call them), while other races don't receive any? Maybe couple that with 10% extra experience?

vivsavage
Red Cap
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by vivsavage »

Captain_K wrote:I like where Aramis is going. Racial abilities are little mini powers and bonuses to things your race is good at or typically most skilled. Thus since we keep assuming that humans "learn faster than all the other races" (where did this ever start?), why not pull together a host of options for humans? First option is by the book:
A) You get a third prime.
B) You get two half primes instead of your third prime.
C) You get on half prime and two of the human racial abilities listed below plus your normal two primes.
D) Take any four of the following (repeats are not allowed):
1) +3 to any 3 categories of saves.
2) Master an additional profession outside your class.
3) Linguist, know 2-5 languages (select half CK determines the rest).
4) Enemy: Pick a race, creature, small class of creatures, or cultural group to be your nemesis (CK approval required); +1 to all rolls against but -1 to deal fairly or rationally with or concerning (bigoted).
5) Fast Learner: Able to learn new languages, skills, spells, abilities and tools in half the normal time (this includes spells memorization and prayer??).
6) Mastery: You may gain a +1 to all things concerning one ability within your class (turning undead, swinging a bastard sword, picking pockets, tracking, saves vs illusionist spells, etc.)
7) You may gain one minor class ability outside your class; selection at CK discretion.
8) You may increase one physical attribute by +1 when you decrease another physical attribute by one OR you may increase one mental attribute by +1 when you decrease another mental attribute by one (18 is the limit for any increase).
9) You may increase one physical attribute by +2 when you decrease another physical attribute by two and one mental attribute by one OR you may increase one mental attribute by +2 when you decrease another mental attribute by two and one physical attribute by one (19 is the limit for any increase).
10) You gain experience at a 10% higher rate.
Thanks for the ideas. I think the concept of humans learning faster has to do with their youth compared to elves and dwarves. It probably ultimately comes from Tolkien; Boromir is in his 30s but seems to be just as good a warrior as Gimli, who is much older. Aragorn is hundreds of years younger than most elves yet is described as "the greatest traveller and huntsman" of the age. Humans are also shown to have greater ambition than the other races of middle earth, seemingly accomplishing stuff faster.

koralas
Ulthal
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by koralas »

vivsavage wrote:Aragorn is hundreds of years younger than most elves yet is described as "the greatest traveller and huntsman" of the age.
To this point, Aragorn is not a normal human, he is a descendant of the Numenoreans, and therefore of Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond. Much power flows through the line of Elros, even though he made his choice to follow the fate of man instead of the fate of the Elves as did his brother. Thus is his great ability defined.

That said, you can do something such as these, based on their prime attributes -
  • +1 to each Primary Attribute
  • For Str Prime characters, deal additional damage equal to level/3 in each combat strike (round up), thus at levels 1-3 it is +1, 4-6 is +2
  • For Int or Wis Prime Casters, one (or two) additional spells per spell level up to and including the ability adjustment (thus a 3rd level Wiz with 18 (+3) would get 5 level 0, 4 level 1, and 2 level 2 spells, or 6/5/3 if granting +2), Non-Casters, or casters of the opposite Prime, know 4 different level 0 spells and may cast 3 of these spells per day (no need to memorize) of either Wiz/Ill if Int, or Cleric/Druid(if TN) if Wis
  • Dex Prime characters gain +2 to their AC AC
  • Con Prime characters replace their 1st level starting HP with their Con score, thus a Wizard with 15 Con would normally start with d4+1, instead it has 15hp
  • Cha Prime characters start the game with a number of followers equal to the Cha modifier +1, these are level 0 and split 1/10th of the treasure (no magic unless freely given) take of the character, they never test moral, and every odd level gained, roll a d100, if less than or equal the Cha score + level of the character, one of the followers becomes 1st level, thereafter this follower takes 1/10th the XP and treasure (not including magic, but if magic is given, this replaces this followers share of gold) of the character, this occurs until the follower is 5th level at which time it will take 1/2 a normal share of XP and Treasure (including magic)from the party unless the character releases the follower from it's service

vivsavage
Red Cap
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by vivsavage »

koralas wrote:
vivsavage wrote:Aragorn is hundreds of years younger than most elves yet is described as "the greatest traveller and huntsman" of the age.
To this point, Aragorn is not a normal human, he is a descendant of the Numenoreans, and therefore of Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond. Much power flows through the line of Elros, even though he made his choice to follow the fate of man instead of the fate of the Elves as did his brother. Thus is his great ability defined.
My point is that he is substantially younger than most elves and yet has learned to be better than them, Numenorean blood not withstanding. Anyways, back to the topic at hand....

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3723
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Go0gleplex »

The whole humans learn faster than other races is from novels a few decades ago. The idea being with their shorter lifespans humans are more driven to learn and achieve in the world than those longer lived races for whom time is not as great an issue.

If you have the CKG and are not using them universally, the knacks or advantages or whatever in there could be a good starting point for options to look at also.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Captain_K »

Then Half Orcs would be the speed readers of the races.. but yeah I get it and that is kind of where I thought it all came from.. books. I was really wondering does CnC, or original DnD, actually codify "humans learn faster".. I've just always accepted it like I accepted Illusionists can't heal.. but wait, its a game, change the rules, things creep in.. etc. Its all good, I was just wondering.

But on that front, all good ideas above. I also like the idea of options for the Human. Take three primes or not... more luck points, more hero points. Luck and Hero points would be really cool to Humans IF the rest of the party of non-humans did not get them. I believe one of the Niven books key bits about humans was they were "the luckiest species in the universe".

I like the CnC rules where few races can see in the dark underground, it used to be just humans could not and that was annoying... now most can't see underground in the dark. I love the long vision of the elf and such.

Also, Technology, adding special tech or special items, "new fangled human things", might be cool too.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote: I was really wondering does CnC, or original DnD, actually codify "humans learn faster"..
If it did it would express in the XP paradigm as that measures learning. It didn't in the versions of D&D I own.

There was a feeble attempt in the skill area. But, not a good one.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by serleran »

XP adjustments, unless excessive, are effectively useless depending on how one gives XP -- if one waits until the completion of an adventure, levels occur naturally for most everyone, usually. Give them out as earned and one can see a given PC level before another but not typically more than a few sessions... so, not to me, a very ideal solution.

You could allow only humans to roll on the Arduin characteristic tables which I have converted. You might wish to mitigate the possible penalties unless you like PCs struggling.

You could also allow something like class-and-a-half with less restriction -- that alone would make them far more viable and more interesting. Perhaps a human fighter/wizard can cast damage spells without providing the enemy a full save bonus.

And, of course, there's level limits. Very original.

There are countless other ideas, too. I would likely base it on individual characters.

As a blanket rule, I despise blanket rules.

User avatar
ssfsx17
Unkbartig
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:00 am
Location: San Francisco Region

Re: Alternate human benefit instead of a bonus prime attribu

Post by ssfsx17 »

For my own house rules (where all races get 3 primes), humans get +1 INT, +1 WIS, and +2 CHA. Making them natural magic users and knights, representing why they might eventually outbreed the other races. Humans should feel just as unique and distinct in a fantasy world as elves and dwarves.

I've been further working on a Virtue & Vice system for humans, where they must choose 1 virtue that gives them a bonus, and 1 vice that makes them more challenging to role-play. Representing how they are playthings of gods of both good and evil, to an extent that many other races don't have to worry about.
C&C/D&D-related writings, Cortex Classic material, and other scraps: https://sites.google.com/site/x17rpgstuff/home

Class-less D&D: https://github.com/ssfsx17/skill20

Post Reply