Two weapon fighting

[Captain_K]

The PH has a pretty straight forward write up for two weapon fighting. It does note that dex can reduce the -3, -6 penalty... does it then take the place of STR and STR cannot add to hit anymore in two weapon fighting? Seems that way in the write up.

The write up seems to assume the person normally has just one attack. Does a 10th lvl fighter get two prime hand attacks and two off hand attacks? I'm kind of partial to the off hand attack is an ADD to the base attacks. So I would read the two weapons as the off hand gets one attempt at a bonus attack in addition to two prime hand attacks.

Next, in an attempt to allow other "styles" and more freedom and more, "you can try anything" play.. how about a thief with two daggers.. throwing one from each hand.. I'd simply be inclined to allow it with the same penalties as two weapon fighting. Same for two small hand help crossbows, one in each hand... OK.. now the stretch.. a rule for attempting two ranged weapons like a bow or spear.. trying to shoot two short bow shots in one round or toss two javelins in rapid order.. again I would be inclined to allow this with the -3 to the first hastily shot/thrown item with the fast second coming at -6. Seems it would not unbalance things and give the same chances as one weapon in each hand.... This then leads to the what happens when the 10th lvl fighter tries this. Here I would say the "second attack" is an add on. Thus the 10th lvl fighter would get his normal two attacks per round, both at a -3, followed by the "extra off hand" attack at -6.

Thoughts? I know Tree has some sort of rule for this.. but I'm not sure I follow it.

[Kayolan]

The PH has a pretty straight forward write up for two weapon fighting. It does note that dex can reduce the -3, -6 penalty... does it then take the place of STR and STR cannot add to hit anymore in two weapon fighting? Seems that way in the write up.

The rules say that strength modifier only applies to damage inflicted.

The write up seems to assume the person normally has just one attack. Does a 10th lvl fighter get two prime hand attacks and two off hand attacks? I'm kind of partial to the off hand attack is an ADD to the base attacks. So I would read the two weapons as the off hand gets one attempt at a bonus attack in addition to two prime hand attacks.

It says you can get two attacks when dual wielding, but they are separate attacks, not two attacks in one. I would rule that the extra attack for being 10th level is one more attack only, not 2.

Next, in an attempt to allow other "styles" and more freedom and more, "you can try anything" play.. how about a thief with two daggers.. throwing one from each hand.. I'd simply be inclined to allow it with the same penalties as two weapon fighting. Same for two small hand help crossbows, one in each hand... OK.. now the stretch.. a rule for attempting two ranged weapons like a bow or spear.. trying to shoot two short bow shots in one round or toss two javelins in rapid order.. again I would be inclined to allow this with the -3 to the first hastily shot/thrown item with the fast second coming at -6. Seems it would not unbalance things and give the same chances as one weapon in each hand.... This then leads to the what happens when the 10th lvl fighter tries this. Here I would say the "second attack" is an add on. Thus the 10th lvl fighter would get his normal two attacks per round, both at a -3, followed by the "extra off hand" attack at -6.

Check out the Rate of Fire rules in the CKG.

[Captain_K]

Rate of Fire in the CKG, thanks, I do recall reading that once. Thanks, applies directly to bows, no cross bows, but omits the other ranged weapons. -2 for each shot when shooting two, -4 for each when shooting three, etc. Seems reasonable. Again, I would think the 10th lvl fighter gets two then the third would be like the penalty for two... kind of like the fighter gets one for free before the second attack is treated like everyone else's one... that thought process alone makes things easier to keep in line.

Thanks for the input.

[Arduin]

Rate of Fire in the CKG, thanks, I do recall reading that once. Thanks, applies directly to bows, no cross bows, but omits the other ranged weapons. -2 for each shot when shooting two, -4 for each when shooting three, etc. Seems reasonable. Again, I would think the 10th lvl fighter gets two then the third would be like the penalty for two... kind of like the fighter gets one for free before the second attack is treated like everyone else's one... that thought process alone makes things easier to keep in line.

Thanks for the input.

When you throw a small item hard enough to damage the body motion required doesn't work well with throwing using both arms at the same time. Purely body physics. I'd penalize the damage from both daggers.

[Go0gleplex]

Rate of Fire in the CKG, thanks, I do recall reading that once. Thanks, applies directly to bows, no cross bows, but omits the other ranged weapons. -2 for each shot when shooting two, -4 for each when shooting three, etc. Seems reasonable. Again, I would think the 10th lvl fighter gets two then the third would be like the penalty for two... kind of like the fighter gets one for free before the second attack is treated like everyone else's one... that thought process alone makes things easier to keep in line.

Thanks for the input.

When you throw a small item hard enough to damage the body motion required doesn't work well with throwing using both arms at the same time. Purely body physics. I'd penalize the damage from both daggers.

Not necessarily true. We used to fire off 6 daggers within ten-twelve seconds using both hands at the same target set 30-feet away with absolutely no problem during our weapons practice with my sword smith buddy. Control is the issue, not strength. We'd stick 2/3 of those thrown normally. Of course you also have to have your sheathes set for doing that as well. We had two behind each shoulder, two on each hip, and started ready with one in each hand. Darts and shuriken were even easier.

[Arduin]

Not necessarily true. We used to fire off 6 daggers within ten-twelve seconds using both hands at the same target set 30-feet away with absolutely no problem during our weapons practice with my sword smith buddy.

Show me empirically, how much damage you did throwing both at the same time.

Have you even had to kill someone with a small blade weapon? If not, you probably are underestimating the amount of force needed. A thrown dagger in C&C can kill a "normal" human...

[Go0gleplex]

Not necessarily true. We used to fire off 6 daggers within ten-twelve seconds using both hands at the same target set 30-feet away with absolutely no problem during our weapons practice with my sword smith buddy.

Show me empirically, how much damage you did throwing both at the same time.

Have you even had to kill someone with a small blade weapon? If not, you probably are underestimating the amount of force is needed.

12" rounds of douglas fir out in the weather for several months set 30 feet away. Using 8" long titanium steel alloy blades with a max width of 1" weighing roughly 12-14 oz., leather wrapped hilts, no cross guard. Sunk each blade that stuck 1" plus into the wood.

USMC Hand to hand trained as well as martial arts and SCA fighting age 14+. Not to mention growing up playing wargames using live machetes, knives, clubs set with 16d nails, and our own version of similarly spiked flails...and we went at each other full tilt with only shields and old hard hats as protection from the age of 10 to 15.

I threw homemade shuriken hard enough from 50' to go 2" through 3/4" CDX plywood one handed. They only punched about 3/4" of an inch and a bit using both hands at the same time. My dad got bloody pissed for making holes in the barn walls that way. So yeah. I have a slight freaking idea of what I'm talking about.

Is THAT emperical enough for you mate?

[Arduin]

12" rounds of douglas fir out in the weather for several months set 30 feet away. Using 8" long titanium steel alloy blades with a max width of 1" weighing roughly 12-14 oz., leather wrapped hilts, no cross guard. Sunk each blade that stuck 1" plus into the wood.

That's all? Maybe 1 point of damage in "the center of mass" area. IF you are lucky. Hence the damage penalty. Tell me, do you know the other major disadvantage to throwing a blade, in that manner, at a human target?

[Treebore]

That's all? Maybe 1 point of damage in "the center of mass" area. IF you are lucky. Hence the damage penalty. Tell me, do you know the other major disadvantage to throwing a blade, in that manner, at a human target?

You should go home now, its obvious you have zero credibility when it comes to using knives in the real world.

[Go0gleplex]

You mean other than a moving target? Or that one of the best ways to defeat a knife throw is to change the range suddenly because it affects how the knife is actually thrown? And you don't throw center of mass at a person. You throw for throat, stomach, or leg hoping for an artery. Center of mass has too much bone that can cause a deflection unless you're holding the knife when you strike and even then you go thru around the fourth rib in a slightly upward angle if I remember right. It's been over 30 years after all. Anything else you would like to know?

And as to that's all? You might want to check the limiter on your arrogant attitude because you're not looking very smart right now. A wet douglas fir round is a lot harder to penetrate than the human body which would have had nearly full blade penetration given the comparative densities. I should know having grown up on a farm butchering our own meat.

Whatever. I gave my experienced opinion. I'm done with this.

[Tadhg]

I have been throwing knives, axes and shurikens for years! Heh, it's so much fun.

Anyway, Google just curious - do you throw shurikens overhand or side arm?

Myself, I feel that I'm more accurate with the overhand.

And incidentally, I throw overhand with left and side arm with right . . as I do with a frisbee!

[Captain_K]

Well since I started this, I really do not care, in six seconds, rather both hands are brought down at the same time OR the right is first with full torso then left with full torso. This is CnC, for fun, with some level of reasonableness, but not much more is needed for me. I have fun trying to keep things "real", but I need not worry that much.

So lets all take a big cleansing breath, exhale, and lets just think about the "is it reasonable". I like the opinions all around. The two at once, or one right after the other I think would still gives a -3 to hit for the first and -6 to hit for the second. Limiting range or reducing damage are all options. Hearing someone tosses them regularly is fine and much more nuts than when I was a kid, but some scary similarities.

I figure a thief or assassin, with throwing knives (or similar small pointy objects) spends a great deal of time doing it (practicing), doing it fast, and doing it with toxins if they can. So they are, in CnC terms, not doing lethal damage purely by the dagger since the damage is just a d4. You go for two throws, because you have enough dex to make the chance of a second d4 worth it... then if they have toxins on them, well, two hits, two saves.... double the fun (sorry can't get that old double mint gum commercial out of my mind now...). Now if they are sneak attacks or such for multiples of damage, that's nice too. Not sure if one should mix those two together... The back attack, sneak attack, or death attack seem to need more focus than while tossing two things.. but I kind of like the cinematics of a dagger in each side of the throat, you know the symmetry of it all is pleasing.

Two weapon fighting hand to hand is classic, its fun, it has so much "story" behind it and many characters may want to do that for fun. But that's hand to hand. Why not expand it to whatever the PC wants with comparable game mechanics rules. Rather its the example above or a wild attempt by a barbarian to toss two throwing axes in desperation, a cleric with two light hammers going for the "double thunder attack" with all the invocations of divine smiting, or a monk twirling twin bolas to launch at a fleeing orc's legs. It seems all would be fun and the penalties seem reasonable.

So, in general I'm not hearing any "no ways, can't be done"... just how is the key.

Thanks all, Captain K

[Go0gleplex]

I have been throwing knives, axes and shurikens for years! Heh, it's so much fun.

Anyway, Google just curious - do you throw shurikens overhand or side arm?

Myself, I feel that I'm more accurate with the overhand.

And incidentally, I throw overhand with left and side arm with right . . as I do with a frisbee!

I get more power, range, and accuracy overhand (used to pitch little league) but I used to throw side as well Rhu.