C&C PHB Printings

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MaxKaladin
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C&C PHB Printings

Post by MaxKaladin »

Hi,

C&C is one of the games I'm considering using for an upcoming campaign and I had a question about the different printings. I understand that there have been six different printings and that there have been some differences between them. For instance, I understand that Illusionists were changed around a fair bit in one of the printings. Some of the players have copies of the rules, but I don't know what printing and I'm curious what differences we might find between various copies of the rules.

Thanks!

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Captain_K
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Captain_K »

Some folks have detailed write ups of this and they will correct me when I'm wrong, but consider the six printings, just that, type-o fixes and printing. The exceptions to that are some minor changes to the Barbarian, both work, most folks allow either version at the player option or whatever book they have. The illusionist has some new spells, namely healing spells (many folks hate this idea).. that said, for the illusionist, allow those spells or not and its pretty easy to not matter what printing you have on hand. I think the class and a half and multi-class might have been added too.. but I do not recall at what edition.

I have 3rd printing and later.. 4th and 5th are kind of type things I think, if I recall correctly...

Any way, run it and if there are differences, rule and move on, should really not matter all that much.
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Captain_K
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Captain_K »

Oh, by the way, welcome to the game, these guys and gals are an awesome bunch of resource and ever helpful!
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Traveller
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Traveller »

For the PHB, Captain K already noted the two big changes: revamped barbarians and illusionist healing. 5th revamped the encumbrance system. The rest is general clarifications and text cleanup. While I personally recommend the latest printing, any printing will work.

Monsters & Treasure on the other hand, is a different story. No other printing but the latest should be used. The changes in the latest printing are quite extensive, rendering the earlier printings obsolete. With one caveat of course: the XP and GP values for armor and shields are missing in the latest printing: something that I need to rectify.

serleran
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by serleran »

Traveller wrote:
Monsters & Treasure on the other hand, is a different story. No other printing but the latest should be used. The changes in the latest printing are quite extensive, rendering the earlier printings obsolete. With one caveat of course: the XP and GP values for armor and shields are missing in the latest printing: something that I need to rectify.
I completely disagree. Only the 1st printing should be used as it retains closest to the heart of intent. But, I am biased so take it with a grain of pepper.

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Captain_K
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Captain_K »

Well Max, welcome to the boards! You know how many CnC posters it takes to screw in a light bulb? Just one, but there will be five to 20 others standing around telling him he (or she) did the job, but they would have done it slightly differently, or with a different color bulb, or without a ladder, etc. etc. We are a very well meaning group, but like all things we love what we love and we love to share what we love.. so between all the mixed bag of opinions you should get overall good and helpful advice here. WELCOME!
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Buttmonkey
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Buttmonkey »

The biggest change in the PHB was from the 3rd to the 4th printing. The switch from 4th to 5th added color. The 6th printing incorporated some errata and continued the color trend. I'd suggest anything from the 4th printing on. I use the 6th because I want all of the errata fixes, but the 4th is my favorite since it is in back and white (I think the art works better in B&W and the text is easier to read). The font size is larger in the 6th printing than the 5th, so it is by far the superior color printing.
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Traveller
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Traveller »

serleran wrote:I completely disagree. Only the 1st printing should be used as it retains closest to the heart of intent. But, I am biased so take it with a grain of pepper.
Yeah, I don't like pepper, but thanks. :|

I know that I said the same thing about most games, simply because I feel it to be true. Monsters & Treasure is, however, an exception. It's an exception because it never got the detailed look-through the Players Handbook had gotten over the last decade, and like it or not, there were problems in it. With the problems in the book, many of them pointed out by the people on this forum, what would you have done differently?

The game has matured from when you wrote the book, and things change. In 2004 TLG could get away with rules inconsistencies on the basis of it being a new game with kinks that needed to be ironed out. In 2015 that simply isn't going to work. With ten-plus years of game play and forum discussion to look back on, it was clear that the game was having issues. It needed a cleanup.

I knew that the end result wasn't going to please everybody. Hell, I'm not sure if it pleased anybody. But in the end, I feel the game is better off now than when it was new, and ready to move forward into the next ten years, if not longer.

MaxKaladin
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by MaxKaladin »

Thanks for the replies. A couple of the players have books already and they all seem to have copyright dates of 2007, though I can't find any indication what printing this is. I have two books, one 2007 and one 2006. How can I tell what printing these are? I know they can't be 5th because no color. Earlier than that, I can't tell.

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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Rigon »

MaxKaladin wrote:Thanks for the replies. A couple of the players have books already and they all seem to have copyright dates of 2007, though I can't find any indication what printing this is. I have two books, one 2007 and one 2006. How can I tell what printing these are? I know they can't be 5th because no color. Earlier than that, I can't tell.
You can tell which printings you have by the TLG code on the spine. The PHB will have TLG 8010x (x=the printing number). If it is just 8010, it is a 1st printing. My 4th print is 80104 and my 6th printing is 80106. Same goes for the M&T.

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serleran
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by serleran »

Traveller wrote:
serleran wrote:I completely disagree. Only the 1st printing should be used as it retains closest to the heart of intent. But, I am biased so take it with a grain of pepper.
Yeah, I don't like pepper, but thanks. :|
Oh, you don't like pepper. Apologies. Melange, maybe? I thought "salt" was overused so I Emeril'd all over the thing...
I know that I said the same thing about most games, simply because I feel it to be true. Monsters & Treasure is, however, an exception. It's an exception because it never got the detailed look-through the Players Handbook had gotten over the last decade, and like it or not, there were problems in it. With the problems in the book, many of them pointed out by the people on this forum, what would you have done differently?
I would have gone over the manuscript more closely before sending it over, added in the elements I wanted (and were told not to include, like SR values) and so forth. I agree that some clarifications are/were in order, but when the book was in process there wasn't even a definitive system to go with it... I had to use Playtest 4.1 as my guide, the SIEGE Engine was not even around (well, it was a possible idea), so there were a lot of "I assume the game will work this way" things, and had I the ability, I would have waited to finish until, at least, there was a companion to look at.

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Traveller
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Re: C&C PHB Printings

Post by Traveller »

Actually, I'm a rather bland guy. I hate both pepper and salt. Just don't tell my hair that, or it may rise up in arms. ;)

You and I are in agreement that the PHB should have been finished so that the rules in Monsters & Treasure could be made consistent with that work. In fact, I pointed out on the forums the fact the rules were not consistently applied between books. Now I know why.

While being forced to use the playtest to write the book was an issue, I believe the bigger issue was that you were told not to include certain things. I know that one of the concepts behind the game was to keep it reasonably lightweight in order to allow play to move swiftly, but there is a difference between rules-light and rules-vague. Stamping out vagaries in the rules was a goal of mine, while at the same time trying to remain as close to the author's intent as possible. Needless to say, that was a difficult balancing act, and one I'm not sure I was wholly successful at.

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