Finally, the Amazon

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Utgardloki
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Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

Okay, I finally did it. I finally statted up the amazon class I was planning to do for a long time. What I'm not sure about is whether it is a good class that is balanced with regard to the other classes. I used the Fighter XP table, but I'm not sure if maybe I should raise or lower the XP requirements, especially since Amazons don't wear armor.

I would like any feedback anybody cares to give. Thanks.

Amazon (Dexterity)
For thousands of years, the Amazon Empire has ruled over islands in the North Atlantic, as well as some parts of the South American, North American, and European mainland.
The warriors of the Amazon Empire have developed special fighting techniques that emphasize dexterity over brute force. They are skilled with the sword and the bow. They are also skilled in martial arts techniques and acrobatics.
While the vast majority of amazons are female, it is not unheard of for them to train males. Some of the best warriors in the kingdoms of Magog have been trained by the amazons.
Statistics
Prime Attribute: Dexterity
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d10
Weapons: Any
Armor: None
Abilities: Bracers of Orichalcum, Amazon Judo, Deflect Missiles, Acrobatics

Level HD BtH EPP Abilities
1 1d10 +1 0 Bracers of Orichalcum +1 AC, Unarmed Damage 1d4, Throw 5’, Deflect Missiles
2 2d10 +2 2,001
3 3d10 +3 4,001 Bracers +2 AC
4 4d10 +4 8,501
5 5d10 +5 17,001 Bracers +3 AC, Unarmed Attack 1d6
6 6d10 +6 34.001 Deflect magic missiles and rays
7 7d10 +7 68,001 Bracers +4 AC, throw 10’
8 8d10 +8 136,001
9 9d10 +9 272,001 Bracers +5 AC
10 10d10 +10 500,001
11 11d10 +11 750,001 Bracers +6 AC, Unarmed Attack 1d8
12 12d10 +12 1,000,001
13 +4 HP +1 +250,000/level Bracers +7 AC, throw 15’

Abilities
Bracers of Orichalcum: Upon completion of her training, an amazon is presented with a pair of orichalum bracers. Orichalum is a very rare metal, harder than iron and heavier than gold. While it is too rare (and too heavy) to be used to make proper armor, amazons are trained to use their bracers to block blows. At first level, this gives them a +1 to their armor class. This bonus increases by +1 for each two additional levels gained, to +2 at 3th level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and so on.

Amazon Judo: While they do not receive the full martial arts training of the monk, amazons are trained in techniques that they can use either with or without a weapon. The course of training includes the following abilities:

Unarmed Attack: At 1st level, an amazon can do 1d4 damage with an unarmed attack. This improves to 1d6 at level 5, 1d8 at level 11, 1d10 at level 19, and 1d12 at if they can get to level 31.

Judo Throw: An amazon with both hands empty can throw an opponent. She makes a normal ‘to hit’ roll, ignoring any armor her opponent may be wearing. If she succeeds, she can throw him five feet in any direction. This increases to 10 feet at 7th level, 15 feet at 13th level, and 20 feet at 19th level.

Deflect Missiles: An amazon who is wearing her orichalcum bracers may deflect missiles. If she has free movement, she may add her level to her AC against missile attacks. If one arm is pinned, encumbered, or otherwise unfree, she may only add half her level.

Starting at 6th level, she may apply this ability to magic spells and rays, such as magic missile.
Acrobatics: Amazons are trained in acrobatic maneuvers. As they increase in level, they master the following techniques. These techniques may not be used if wearing armor, other than their orichalcum bracers:

Acrobatic Dodge: They may move up to their base movement, and gain a bonus to AC of +1 for every five feet they move. This bonus lasts for one round.

Attack Leap: An amazon may leap five feet plus one foot per level and make an attack, including a judo throw or other attack, at the end of the leap. Her feet do not need to touch the ground. She may also extend the range of her leap by 50% by touching the ground halfway between her starting point and the end point of her leap.

Other acrobatic maneuvers: With the permission of the Castle Keeper, an amazon may also accomplish other acrobatic techniques. A successful Dexterity roll may be required.

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Go0gleplex
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Go0gleplex »

OP Wonder Woman. nuff said.
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Treebore »

Is it Orichalcum or Orichalum? You switch between both spellings.

I like it. I think its a nice balance between the Monk and the Fighter classes, leaning more towards Monk.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by serleran »

When I think amazon, I immediately picture female archer. Lacking any real ranged weapon skills, I would have to add them.

But, that's my myth.

Utgardloki
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

I'm thinking perhaps some amendment should be made to the Throw ability.

Firstly, perhaps a -4 adjustment to represent that she not only has to make the equivalent of a "touch attack", but also has to get her limbs in a position to throw the guy effectively. Since she already gets to ignore any armor her target might be wearing, this should be workable.

Secondly, if there is a size difference between the amazon and the target, there should be an adjustment. +7 if the target is 75% smaller, +5 if the target is 50% smaller, +2 if the target is 25% smaller, -2 if the target is 25% larger, -5 if the target is 50% larger, -7 if the target is 75% larger, -10 if the target is 100% larger, and so on. That way, an amazon trying to throw a dwarf gets a +2 bonus, an amazon trying to throw an ogre gets a -5 penalty, and an amazon trying to throw a titan gets a -82 penalty. ("No, I don't think you're going to be able to throw that titan off the bridge.")

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Treebore »

Utgardloki wrote:I'm thinking perhaps some amendment should be made to the Throw ability.

Firstly, perhaps a -4 adjustment to represent that she not only has to make the equivalent of a "touch attack", but also has to get her limbs in a position to throw the guy effectively. Since she already gets to ignore any armor her target might be wearing, this should be workable.

Secondly, if there is a size difference between the amazon and the target, there should be an adjustment. +7 if the target is 75% smaller, +5 if the target is 50% smaller, +2 if the target is 25% smaller, -2 if the target is 25% larger, -5 if the target is 50% larger, -7 if the target is 75% larger, -10 if the target is 100% larger, and so on. That way, an amazon trying to throw a dwarf gets a +2 bonus, an amazon trying to throw an ogre gets a -5 penalty, and an amazon trying to throw a titan gets a -82 penalty. ("No, I don't think you're going to be able to throw that titan off the bridge.")
Well, that is essentially Grappling, so I'd follow the Grappling rules.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Captain_K
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Captain_K »

How about you tweak it and write it up nice and submit it to Tree for the Domesday? Shoot me a PM and I'll get you a format template to make your life easy...
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Utgardloki
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

Captain_K wrote:How about you tweak it and write it up nice and submit it to Tree for the Domesday? Shoot me a PM and I'll get you a format template to make your life easy...
I'd be glad to make my contribution. What would you suggest for tweaking?

I think more flavor text would be useful, but I'm not sure what to write there.

The Amazon was so easy, I should have the Gladiator and Guardian done in no time.

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Captain_K »

I'm not suggesting any changes, only going from this format to a nice PH like format in Word that will look like a sheet out of the PH and likely easier for Tree to use in Domesday.
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Celticgamer
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Celticgamer »

I have planned, once the vast majority of the Codices are completed, to round them up with all of the sunken and mythical lands from these many ancient cultures and civilizations and put them together in one volume, and call it something like the Codex Antidiluvia, or the 'Book (before the) Flood'. It will be about these mythical Lost Continents and islands that were alleged to have sank in the oceans of the world such as Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria. It was my original fascination before the Celts and King Arthur, and it will bring it all full-circle. This Codex will logically include the Amazons (although recent academics have since proven them to be real, and I will cover them in the book alongside the mythical).

Personally, I think the book will kick major gaming book!

Utgardloki
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

Celticgamer wrote:I have planned, once the vast majority of the Codices are completed, to round them up with all of the sunken and mythical lands from these many ancient cultures and civilizations and put them together in one volume, and call it something like the Codex Antidiluvia, or the 'Book (before the) Flood'. It will be about these mythical Lost Continents and islands that were alleged to have sank in the oceans of the world such as Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria. It was my original fascination before the Celts and King Arthur, and it will bring it all full-circle. This Codex will logically include the Amazons (although recent academics have since proven them to be real, and I will cover them in the book alongside the mythical).

Personally, I think the book will kick major gaming book!
I'll have to get my Guardian class together, since the whole purpose of the Atlantis myth was for Plato to showcase his Guardian idea.

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

I'm thinking of a couple other tweaks, and would be interested in opinions:

1: Increase hit dice to D12, since they don't wear armor but are expected to be in the thick of melee

2: Give them an Amazon Stamina ability: Starting at 2nd level, if a fight goes on for 10 or more rounds, an Amazon can regain 1d10 hit points every 10th round. (If a fight does not go on for 10 rounds, the most she can regain is 1 hp per round that the fight actually lasted.) At 8th level, this increases to 2d10 hit points, with a max of 2 hp per round that the fight actually lasted. Every seven levels, this increases by 1d10 and the max increases by 1 hp per round.

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Celticgamer
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Celticgamer »

Utgardloki wrote:
Celticgamer wrote:I have planned, once the vast majority of the Codices are completed, to round them up with all of the sunken and mythical lands from these many ancient cultures and civilizations and put them together in one volume, and call it something like the Codex Antidiluvia, or the 'Book (before the) Flood'. It will be about these mythical Lost Continents and islands that were alleged to have sank in the oceans of the world such as Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria. It was my original fascination before the Celts and King Arthur, and it will bring it all full-circle. This Codex will logically include the Amazons (although recent academics have since proven them to be real, and I will cover them in the book alongside the mythical).

Personally, I think the book will kick major gaming book!
I'll have to get my Guardian class together, since the whole purpose of the Atlantis myth was for Plato to showcase his Guardian idea.
I am not sure which 'Guardian idea' you are referring to since Plato was, it is deemed by many, to be using Atlantis as an allegory of, a Utopia, that was corrupted by many evils and to contrast that with the civilization of Athens in a cautionary manner. Atlantian society and its sinking was due to how evil its people became over time, and how those problems poisoned the mighty Empire and it gradually brought about its downfall. Plato was, through Solon's words on the Nile journey, using the story or pseudo-history as a cautionary means to warn his fellow Athenians about the future and how they may also someday find their fate the same as the Atlantians (to make a long story short).

Plato never wrote about any guardians of any sort. His universe was filled with a starkness of black and white absolutes and symbolisms if anything, mostly borrowed from other cultures that he would never credit.

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miller6
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by miller6 »

As Serleran already mentioned could use some archery skills while toning down the acrobatics and grappling a bit so as not to be OP.

Couple other things I'd change:
1) Only standard fighters have a BTH of 1 per level, all sub-fighter types are BTH of 1 less than their level.
2) limit the bracers magic pluses to +1 for every 4 levels. i.e. 1st-4th = +1 bracers, 5th-8th +2, 9th-12th +3, 13th-16th +4 and 17-20th +5. I'd have also considered making the bracers Bracers of Brachiation (means using vines to swing from tree to tree) since Amazons were jungle warriors.

Otherwise, pretty cool overall. Should be fun to play. :)
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Utgardloki
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

Celticgamer wrote:
Utgardloki wrote:
I'll have to get my Guardian class together, since the whole purpose of the Atlantis myth was for Plato to showcase his Guardian idea.
I am not sure which 'Guardian idea' you are referring to since Plato was, it is deemed by many, to be using Atlantis as an allegory of, a Utopia, that was corrupted by many evils and to contrast that with the civilization of Athens in a cautionary manner. Atlantian society and its sinking was due to how evil its people became over time, and how those problems poisoned the mighty Empire and it gradually brought about its downfall. Plato was, through Solon's words on the Nile journey, using the story or pseudo-history as a cautionary means to warn his fellow Athenians about the future and how they may also someday find their fate the same as the Atlantians (to make a long story short).

Plato never wrote about any guardians of any sort. His universe was filled with a starkness of black and white absolutes and symbolisms if anything, mostly borrowed from other cultures that he would never credit.
The Guardians come from Plato's Republic. They are the ones who guard the city, and from whom the philosopher-kings are found.

It could be played as a paladin with a special code, which would normally be the way I would handle it. However, for my campaign I've wanted to consolidate the Ranger and Paladin into one class so I don't have to create organizations to support both classes. This is playing a little loose with Plato's concept because a Guardian has skills for adventures both urban and rural.

Gladiators may or may not be specific to Atlantis, but I think it fits, especially since I'm going more Roman than Greek with my Atlantean empire by using the Roman names for the gods. Different people have different opinions, though.

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

miller6 wrote:As Serleran already mentioned could use some archery skills while toning down the acrobatics and grappling a bit so as not to be OP.

Couple other things I'd change:
1) Only standard fighters have a BTH of 1 per level, all sub-fighter types are BTH of 1 less than their level.
2) limit the bracers magic pluses to +1 for every 4 levels. i.e. 1st-4th = +1 bracers, 5th-8th +2, 9th-12th +3, 13th-16th +4 and 17-20th +5. I'd have also considered making the bracers Bracers of Brachiation (means using vines to swing from tree to tree) since Amazons were jungle warriors.

Otherwise, pretty cool overall. Should be fun to play. :)
Brian Miller
About the Bracers: I made it +1 for 2 levels because they don't wear armor, because armor interferes with their acrobatic skills. Thus, while Fighters are gaining ever more powerful sets of armor, the Amazon needs to be able to keep up somehow. This is also the reason I'm considering increasing hit dice to D12, because without armor, they'll need more hit points to stay alive.

I can drop the BTH.

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Re: Finally, the Amazon

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Should they get armor bonus equal to or less than the monk? I would gage the armor gain against the monk. You could have bracers themselves made of leather, brass, steel, mitral and adamantine which they only get a level ceremonies??
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

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Did not want to be overly critical or discourage you right off so let others say something first. Having designed more than a couple classes, I find this is a bit OP and broken. But that is just my opinion which does not matter much in the overall scheme of YOUR game. ;) As I noted, it is like you are trying to write a class for DC's Wonder Woman Amazon than an actual Amazon in terms of flavor and there is not anything wrong with that as long as things remain with the realm of reason.

HD: yes. d12 makes sense because of the spartan-like training you infer the amazons go through. As you said, this offsets their lack of armor a bit.

Bracer AC Bonus: This should start at Lvl 2, not 1. The bonus cap should not exceed +6. They are DEX based warriors, not tanking fighters. That is the trade off they make. (You note Armor: None. Technically Bracers ARE Armor and you can gain a +1 AC bonus from them like a shield which accounts for a first level AC bonus outside of the ability.) Magic Bracers, rings, and other items can further offset this and still retain your flavor.
Now...since the ARE DEX based, giving them a small +1 or +2 Initiative bonus would not seem amiss and give them a small edge in a fight against the traditional type tanks. Since they have no armor to slow down their reaction time and they train to maximize that given your missile deflection.

Deflection of magic: No. Just no. a pair of bracers is not going to deflect a 5' wide bolt of lightening. Magic Missiles can only be stopped by SR or shield spells. If they contact, they transfer their force which means the moment they hit the bracers damage is inflicted. Same thing with rays and most spells. They inflict damage on contact with the target, armor not withstanding unless so noted in the spell description. Now, if the bracers were of a magic negating metal, then I could see the rays and magic missiles. Things like lightening and such however...not happening as their diameter exceeds the area able to be shielded by the bracers themselves.
You also do not need to give a separate AC bonus to deflect the missiles since that AC bonus is already taken into account as they deflect incoming melee attacks. They cannot deflect everything coming at them if already engaged. A person's arms cannot move that fast even if Bruce Lee. You seem to be stuck on the Wonder Woman trope there. Also, the Deflect Missile skill exists as part of the Monk Class. I would recommend utilizing this as it is also DEX based and functions more reasonably game mechanics-wise.

The Acrobatic Dodge and your Judo throw stuff...really?!? Having practiced Judo and several other martial arts for years, I can tell you that you are not going to be throwing someone 20' unless you are built like Andre the Giant. 10' yes. 15' maybe if you catch the fulcrum just right in relation to angle of attack. 20' highly unlikely. Not even our 6th Dan could do that to the lightest of us.

Tree mentioned Grappling. Something a DEX based warrior is going to be at a decided disadvantage with when confronted by a STR based warrior. Again, drawing on my judo experience and not meaning to sound sexist here, women have smaller frames and less muscle mass than most men without significant physical training. But they are also some of the hardest fighters to pin to the mat due to their better flexibility and such. So maybe the addition of a Break Grapple ability or bonus would not be out of line here. If so, it should not exceed a +2.

Acrobatic Dodging should not be based off of movement. Yes, speed can be armor but it is also easier to hit someone the closer they are to you. Even so, if they stop moving they lose this bonus making the ability more or less useless in a fight. Just use a straight up +1/3 or 4 levels instead. Leave the acrobatics stuff to the player to describe as part of their attack and all. It should be noted that when airborne, you are also easier to hit, both in flight and upon landing because you cannot alter your movement or direction while in the air and your landing spot is predictable unless you have some means of altering things.

Attack Leap is pretty much just Leap that several creatures in the M&T use and should follow that.

As someone said, the Monk is the hand to hand specialist class. The Amazon should not really eclipse this in terms of unarmed damage. Equal maybe. But not eclipse.

Anyhow. That's my nickel's worth of feedback. ;) Have fun.
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Utgardloki
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Re: Finally, the Amazon

Post by Utgardloki »

Go0gleplex wrote:Did not want to be overly critical or discourage you right off so let others say something first. Having designed more than a couple classes, I find this is a bit OP and broken. But that is just my opinion which does not matter much in the overall scheme of YOUR game. ;) As I noted, it is like you are trying to write a class for DC's Wonder Woman Amazon than an actual Amazon in terms of flavor and there is not anything wrong with that as long as things remain with the realm of reason.
Thank you, Go0gleplex. I have no experience with C&C, so balance is something I can use advice on. I'm not really going on for realism here, but if the class is overpowered I'll certainly be wanting to tone it down a little.

That said: D12 hit dice seems like a good idea and I think I'll make that change.

Bracers: note that these are a special metal with special properties, so it is possible that they could influence magic. Perhaps some aspect of this can kick in at 1st level, such as a +1 saving throw bonus, and make the bracers themselves very resistant to magic that tries to specifically target them.

I can also note that +1 of the bonus is from the hardness of the metal itself, so the class-based bonus really kicks in at level 3 as currently written. I'm not sure about a +6 cap, which would apply after level 15. I'll consider it, though.

I made their deflect missiles different than a monks. Monks are better at most martial arts abilities than amazons, so I figured I could get away with making amazons better at deflecting missiles. I also wanted to keep things simple. I'll take another look at the mechanic, and perhaps tone this down a little bit. In fact, I think I'll only use half their level instead of their level as a bonus to AC, maybe even a third their level.

Judo: Again, I'm not going for realism here. Note, an amazon has to get to 19th level to be able to throw someone 20 feet, and even to throw someone 15 feet she has to be 13th level.

Acrobatic Dodge: Maybe I'll change this to per 10 feet instead of per 5 feet, and put a level cap on it as well. It is intended to be only applicable when moving, so if she is in one spot battling someone, she loses this bonus (although she does get it in the round in which she closes to melee). And perhaps not count leaps as part of the movement.

Attack Leap: I'll take a look through M&T and decide whether to use that.

Amazons vs Monks: Monks are still the premier hand to hand specialist. They do more damage unarmed than an amazon does. In fact, an amazon is better off with a sword or other weapon until very high levels, at which point they probably have magic weapons they want to use. Monks also have more special martial arts abilities than amazons.

Base to Hit: As noted, I should probably knock that down by 1, to be equal to the Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian.

Final thought: since I'm not going for realism, maybe I should make them kind of Jedi-like with being centered in the force or something. It might be appropriate to give them a resistance to mental attacks and a bonus to perception. But I don't want to load this class down with special abilities.

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