Kickstarters

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

T1Hound wrote:They have to start getting better.
  • -The Dictionary is running late (from January to November now).
    -Three Sisters is just finishing so there may be a package coming this week.
    -The enthusiasm for Victorious has faded. The gaming group isn't really interested in it anymore (it's a year late).
It's rough going up against 5E. It has a lot of bling and glam right now.

The errors in the books has been bad. I've had 2 players picking up the Rune Lore book and found errors. It's a hard sell to go with this system with errors. I have players who were looking forward to the books and purchased only to look confused at the book itself.

The Trolls being great guys - it is wearing thin against all other items.
This sums it up for me. Unless you make up your own rules, Rune Lore, Familiars, Celtarum, make no sense. My players threw their hands up one day and said "enough!".

I am hoping to get my package of stretch goal stuff, adventures and trinkets, to finally close out these last two KS's. They were my last.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

Snoring Rock wrote:
This sums it up for me. Unless you make up your own rules, Rune Lore, Familiars, Celtarum, make no sense. My players threw their hands up one day and said "enough!".

I am hoping to get my package of stretch goal stuff, adventures and trinkets, to finally close out these last two KS's. They were my last.
I don't understand your comment about Rune Lore, et al. I'll admit that I've only made cursory glances of them (since they haven't been utilized in a game, yet) but I didn't see where they didn't make sense.

I'm not done supporting the Trolls. My complaints/concerns about KS are in general, not comments directly at TLG. I do wish they were timely with their rewards. I wish they didn't start new KS projects while previous ones are still outstanding, but in the end I like the game and the guys are top notch. All that said, I have taken a break from the last eight or so. We'll see with the next one.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

I have participated in many KS' by many different companies. Being timely in delivery is very much the exception, while being late is the rule.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Snoring Rock wrote:
T1Hound wrote:They have to start getting better.
  • -The Dictionary is running late (from January to November now).
    -Three Sisters is just finishing so there may be a package coming this week.
    -The enthusiasm for Victorious has faded. The gaming group isn't really interested in it anymore (it's a year late).
It's rough going up against 5E. It has a lot of bling and glam right now.

The errors in the books has been bad. I've had 2 players picking up the Rune Lore book and found errors. It's a hard sell to go with this system with errors. I have players who were looking forward to the books and purchased only to look confused at the book itself.

The Trolls being great guys - it is wearing thin against all other items.
This sums it up for me. Unless you make up your own rules, Rune Lore, Familiars, Celtarum, make no sense. My players threw their hands up one day and said "enough!".

I am hoping to get my package of stretch goal stuff, adventures and trinkets, to finally close out these last two KS's. They were my last.
While I do not like/use Rune Lore or Familiars, I don't get how they make no sense. When I was considering them the rules made sense, I just didn't like them. Celtarum? Its a stand alone "setting" product, and I think its great. Some rules ideas I don't like, so won't use, but over all the content is exceptionally good.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

@LD;

With Rune Lore, there are schools of runes that are mentioned but do not appear in the book. Why list them if they do not exist? I think, based on how it is worded, that the trolls meant to include them but ran out of space in the book or just forgot to add them. Heavy, careful editing would have caught this. There are descriptions of rune magic spells but they are dreadfully over-powered when added to a C&C game. How many HD does a Rune-Mark get? Is it 6 or 8? Both are shown. They start with 6 and the chart shows 8 under progression. Please do not tell me that that was what was intended. Thee is an entire old thread on that subject. Turns out it was a mistake. Rule discrepancies like that, bother me. Yes, I know, I can house-rule it. So why pay for it? Why purchase the book if I need to make up my own rules?

In my mind, I think that paying for the book, is the same as expecting the author/s to edit for grammar/spelling and to play test the rules to the point that they are very certain that the rules work and that there are no contradictions. Rune Lore is vague in areas and does not fit with the rest of C&C. The power level is off. I have had 3 different players try the class and it just falls apart or we end up having to overhaul the spells and the class.

It is a great concept but just poorly executed. It is all just my opinion I suppose. I hope that helps.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Treebore wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
T1Hound wrote:They have to start getting better.
  • -The Dictionary is running late (from January to November now).
    -Three Sisters is just finishing so there may be a package coming this week.
    -The enthusiasm for Victorious has faded. The gaming group isn't really interested in it anymore (it's a year late).
It's rough going up against 5E. It has a lot of bling and glam right now.

The errors in the books has been bad. I've had 2 players picking up the Rune Lore book and found errors. It's a hard sell to go with this system with errors. I have players who were looking forward to the books and purchased only to look confused at the book itself.

The Trolls being great guys - it is wearing thin against all other items.
This sums it up for me. Unless you make up your own rules, Rune Lore, Familiars, Celtarum, make no sense. My players threw their hands up one day and said "enough!".

I am hoping to get my package of stretch goal stuff, adventures and trinkets, to finally close out these last two KS's. They were my last.
While I do not like/use Rune Lore or Familiars, I don't get how they make no sense. When I was considering them the rules made sense, I just didn't like them. Celtarum? Its a stand alone "setting" product, and I think its great. Some rules ideas I don't like, so won't use, but over all the content is exceptionally good.
Well that's the kicker. You have to put them to the test and play and use them to see what I mean. You cant really comment from an informed position right? Try playing the game using either or both books.

I guess back to my original rant. The long wait and the drawn out bits and pieces are not something I enjoy with KS. I must say that the worst is not TLG. It is by far CSIO with JG. Major rip off. They destroyed the JG name with that, in my opinion. I think they are out of funds. 900+ backers screwed.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

Snoring Rock wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
Unfair: if 1 out of 3 is considered a good track record? The PHB is much improved, I agree. I will even go as far as the M&T being improved a lot; but still meh, but I have looked through them a great deal. Have you opened the CKG? Same old errors, and messed up encumbrance tables as well as missing data on a magic item chart and a missing chart altogether. Unfair? All of which were pointed out before the print. Messy. Careless. If you are fair when you do read through them, then you will see what I mean.

Have you opened Celtarum? How about Aihrde? Book of Familiars? Rune Lore? The editing there is awful. Yeah, I get it, I was a fan-boy once too and could not, would not see it. I did not want to see it. I was part of all of those kickstarters as well. Waiting did not improve them.
Woah, there. My comment was specifically addressed to the PHB. I said your criticism of the editing on the PHB is unfair and it is. As you noted, it is actually much improved. I specifically said I haven't looked through the M&T or CKG enough to comment. I also never said anything about any books outside the 3 Sisters. How you can go from that to me being a fan-boy who refuses to see errors in TLG products is beyond me.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
Unfair: if 1 out of 3 is considered a good track record? The PHB is much improved, I agree. I will even go as far as the M&T being improved a lot; but still meh, but I have looked through them a great deal. Have you opened the CKG? Same old errors, and messed up encumbrance tables as well as missing data on a magic item chart and a missing chart altogether. Unfair? All of which were pointed out before the print. Messy. Careless. If you are fair when you do read through them, then you will see what I mean.

Have you opened Celtarum? How about Aihrde? Book of Familiars? Rune Lore? The editing there is awful. Yeah, I get it, I was a fan-boy once too and could not, would not see it. I did not want to see it. I was part of all of those kickstarters as well. Waiting did not improve them.
Woah, there. My comment was specifically addressed to the PHB. I said your criticism of the editing on the PHB is unfair and it is. As you noted, it is actually much improved. I specifically said I haven't looked through the M&T or CKG enough to comment. I also never said anything about any books outside the 3 Sisters. How you can go from that to me being a fan-boy who refuses to see errors in TLG products is beyond me.
I do not mean you specifically with fan-boy, I respect you; but we have them here and regardless, of what they are fed, they take it and ask for more. That is ok too. Just not for me anymore. I will concede that the PHB is better. My point is that the 3 sisters KS was a package deal. So in all, only 1/3 was improved. I bought in under the understanding that the problems/editing would be fixed. They were, but only 1/3 of the way. I suppose I will not get 2/3 of my money back? Anyway, I am out of KS both at TLG and JG.

Good luck to you all!

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

Snoring Rock wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
Unfair: if 1 out of 3 is considered a good track record? The PHB is much improved, I agree. I will even go as far as the M&T being improved a lot; but still meh, but I have looked through them a great deal. Have you opened the CKG? Same old errors, and messed up encumbrance tables as well as missing data on a magic item chart and a missing chart altogether. Unfair? All of which were pointed out before the print. Messy. Careless. If you are fair when you do read through them, then you will see what I mean.

Have you opened Celtarum? How about Aihrde? Book of Familiars? Rune Lore? The editing there is awful. Yeah, I get it, I was a fan-boy once too and could not, would not see it. I did not want to see it. I was part of all of those kickstarters as well. Waiting did not improve them.
I know you weren't posting to me, but I wanted to respond. I'm a huge fan boy. Love the system. Love the setting. I don't own everything they have put out for C&C/Aihrde yet, but I will. Just because I love it, warts and all, doesn't mean I don't see the warts. I gave away two copies of the Codex to my players. First thing I said is that by reading this, you'll do really well in our second campaign in Aihrde. Second thing I said is that the editing was awful, and jarring, just like usual.

I really hope they improve. My secret desire is that they select me as the next proofreader and actually fix what is reported. I guess what I am saying is even a fanboy can be objective, and though I like the books and setting and will continue to support them, I will continue to push for their improvement as well.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Harlock wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
Unfair: if 1 out of 3 is considered a good track record? The PHB is much improved, I agree. I will even go as far as the M&T being improved a lot; but still meh, but I have looked through them a great deal. Have you opened the CKG? Same old errors, and messed up encumbrance tables as well as missing data on a magic item chart and a missing chart altogether. Unfair? All of which were pointed out before the print. Messy. Careless. If you are fair when you do read through them, then you will see what I mean.

Have you opened Celtarum? How about Aihrde? Book of Familiars? Rune Lore? The editing there is awful. Yeah, I get it, I was a fan-boy once too and could not, would not see it. I did not want to see it. I was part of all of those kickstarters as well. Waiting did not improve them.
I know you weren't posting to me, but I wanted to respond. I'm a huge fan boy. Love the system. Love the setting. I don't own everything they have put out for C&C/Aihrde yet, but I will. Just because I love it, warts and all, doesn't mean I don't see the warts. I gave away two copies of the Codex to my players. First thing I said is that by reading this, you'll do really well in our second campaign in Aihrde. Second thing I said is that the editing was awful, and jarring, just like usual.

I really hope they improve. My secret desire is that they select me as the next proofreader and actually fix what is reported. I guess what I am saying is even a fanboy can be objective, and though I like the books and setting and will continue to support them, I will continue to push for their improvement as well.

Yep. I think most around here can recall when the Trolls have put out crap product, I call them on it. The most recent being J. Wards booklet of spells. Fortunately that was still only in PDF, so got looked at and edited again, coming out much better.

There is a difference between giving fair criticism and just blame, blame blame. There is NO, absolutely NO company that doesn't put out less than perfect product. Not one. They all make errors, get things wrong, bad rules additions, name it. If I bought RPG's based upon having to being perfectly done, I wouldn't be able to buy any.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

Should I take Snoring Rock's criticisms about the three sisters editing personally?

Nope.

There was no way in hell I would catch everything, especially in a book I had never seen prior to editing (CKG). Which is why, if I recall correctly, Kickstarter backers got an advance look at all three books prior to being printed, specifically to try and eliminate as many issues as possible between the time the edited copy was sent to the Trolls and the time it was printed.

In Monsters & Treasure, while I take responsibility for the missing info in the armor and shields tables, everyone else missed it as well. If there is a missing table in one of the books, why didn't anyone point that out when the opportunity was there? Point being that Snoring Rock is kvetching about errors that at least fifty different people missed. Errors that as a (assumed) Kickstarter backer he along with everyone else had an opportunity to find so that they could be addressed.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Omote »

In all fairness, it's not the KS backers job to edit these books. No company should rely on backers to do the editing. That's folly every time.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

That is true. Nevertheless, it was one of the perks of the Kickstarter. But even before the Kickstarter, anyone who found something missing could very easily have sent a message to the Trolls, whether through smoke signals, a phone call, or even an email. The people that are complaining, whether justified or not, could have easily helped their own cause here.

Instead, we get complaints about "stacked" Kickstarters and how the editing is not up to par, all the while failing to realize that there are printed games out there that were demonstrably in worse shape than Castles & Crusades. For an easy example, take a look at Mongoose's 1st printing of Traveller (1st Edition) and compare it to the second. In the first printing, multiple tables had incorrect information, every single starship was improperly constructed, ship floorplans were unreadable, and there was a missing table in the space combat section. The second printing corrected all those flaws, but added a new flaw in that no multiplication symbols are in the book.

DC Adventures' first printing had repeated paragraphs, incorrect information within paragraphs, wholesale revisions of abilities, characters built incorrectly, and missing skills/feats. Later printings fixed this. I could go on, but I hope I've made it crystal clear that RPGs are some of the worst edited products out there, period. Just think though, we could be all wading through the 656 pages of Traveller 5 trying to find a game in there.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, and I submit this respectfully as a huge fanboy, but those other products' poor editing does not excuse TLG's. I don't care about those other games. I don't play those other games. Wanting the best product possible for the system I do buy and support has nothing to do with any other publisher. Frankly, "all the while failing to realize that there are printed games out there that were demonstrably in worse shape than Castles & Crusades," sounds like placing the blame on the consumer of your product for their ignorance. This is not where the blame lies and insinuating otherwise is approaching insulting.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Harlock wrote:I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, and I submit this respectfully as a huge fanboy, but those other products' poor editing does not excuse TLG's. I don't care about those other games. I don't play those other games. Wanting the best product possible for the system I do buy and support has nothing to do with any other publisher. Frankly, "all the while failing to realize that there are printed games out there that were demonstrably in worse shape than Castles & Crusades," sounds like placing the blame on the consumer of your product for their ignorance. This is not where the blame lies and insinuating otherwise is approaching insulting.
No, the point is that every single print product, from novels, to text books, to RPG products will always have errors in them, from small to occasionally big. To expect any book, let alone an RPG book, to be error free is simply unrealistic. Like I said above, if I demanded perfection from RPG's, I wouldn't be able to buy any of them. Not one. I wouldn't even be a gamer today, because if I held 1E AD&D up to this standard of perfection, I would have bought one, maybe two, different printings and walked away. Original Traveller? A mess. Paladium Fantasy? Similar mess. Rolemaster? Another mess. I would have quit RPG's once and for all.

Modern RPG's any better? Nope. Not one. Look at 3E D&D. Biggest company in the industry with the most funds and personnel. So many mistakes they had to do 3.5E to attempt to fix them. Then look how badly they did with 4e. Over 100 pages of errata. Both Paizo and Mongoose have put out product missing ENTIRE chapters.

So if even the big companies cannot deliver perfect RPGs, how is it reasonable, at all, to expect TLG to do it? With authors, editors, and artists who live not only in different parts of the USA, but entirely different continents? Considering their challenges, the Trolls deliver pretty good content.

As for why they should have their fans provide feedback? Because it is feedback, they do hire actual editors, not just rely on us. We are extra sets of eyes. Again, Jim Ward's booklet of elemental magics was complete crap. COMPLETE crap. Who caught it, to the best of my knowledge? Me. Then Steve took a look at it and was like, "OMG!" and had Jason completely re edit it. If this did not happen, we very possibly would have bought a print product that was completely useless crap, and TLG would have had to eat the costs of replacing it with usable product.

Victorious. I know for a fact it is going to print with a lot less errors in it, assuming the proper file went to the printers, thanks to the feedback of several fans, including myself. Did it come out perfect? Probably not, but its closer than it would have been. Plus we already know the Trolls made a mistake on the second booklet, which I never saw, plus we just got 4 more PDF's, for the first time, yesterday, and I have yet to look through them, but is a very safe bet I will find typo's, poorly worded sentences, and maybe even complete rules errors. This will be despite their paid editors efforts.

I don't know about you, but I like helping make sure the Trolls get their products closer to perfection than they would without us.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by maximus »

As a consumer I expect a certain level of excellence from products and companies I continue to support. However, I do think the opportunity to get an early look and provide feedback is kind of cool. The fact that TLG includes their customers in the process says a lot. I don't think you get that kind of access from XYZ, Inc. Honestly I don't dwell on the minutia as much as others may, but I do appreciate the attention it brings.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

This is a fine line to deal with. I think we can all agree on the following:

1. Errors are bad in a print product, and every effort should be made to catch them.

2. TLG has developed a procedure to try to address this, starting with a paid editor and (hopefully) assistance by KS backers looking over the pdfs.

3. TLG as a company should strive to put out the best product possible, and owes it to their fans to fix as many problems as they can when they are found.

...the issue is #3 I think. Each person has a different opinion on the status of typo fixes and error removal. Are the Trolls doing a good job or not? That depends on the individual and if you feel they're not doing enough to fix their products, probably nothing anyone says here will change your mind.

As ever, the final resort of unsatisfied customers is to not buy further product. This is unfortunate, but if you're being bothered by (in your opinion) excessive typos and rules breakage, then you're not going to enjoy Castles & Crusades. From the above, and my own experience, you might not enjoy most tabletop RPG product. Or you might, being more willing to allow for any errors in other systems.

In my view, I will continue to support TLG and push hard for any typos and errors to be removed in subsequent printings of product as they come down the pipe. ;)

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

Treebore wrote:No, the point is that every single print product, from novels, to text books, to RPG products will always have errors in them, from small to occasionally big. To expect any book, let alone an RPG book, to be error free is simply unrealistic. Like I said above, if I demanded perfection from RPG's, I wouldn't be able to buy any of them. Not one. I wouldn't even be a gamer today, because if I held 1E AD&D up to this standard of perfection, I would have bought one, maybe two, different printings and walked away. Original Traveller? A mess. Paladium Fantasy? Similar mess. Rolemaster? Another mess. I would have quit RPG's once and for all.
I didn't say I expected perfection, as I don't. Nor did I say that fans should not help. I am simply saying "other products are worse" is not an excuse I accept. Do I think TLG could do a better job? Absolutely. Those repeated sentences or half-sentences (in some cases) throughout the Codex for example are very obvious. If I were to take a wild guess, I'd say they came from some formatting issue.
Treebore wrote:Modern RPG's any better? Nope. Not one. Look at 3E D&D. Biggest company in the industry with the most funds and personnel. So many mistakes they had to do 3.5E to attempt to fix them. Then look how badly they did with 4e. Over 100 pages of errata. Both Paizo and Mongoose have put out product missing ENTIRE chapters.
As stated in the post you quoted and restated above, I do not find how poorly everyone else does something a very good excuse.
Treebore wrote:So if even the big companies cannot deliver perfect RPGs, how is it reasonable, at all, to expect TLG to do it? With authors, editors, and artists who live not only in different parts of the USA, but entirely different continents? Considering their challenges, the Trolls deliver pretty good content.
I think they put out great content! It's why I buy it. I really like it. And again, I do not expect perfection. No where did I say I expect TLG to be perfect and put out perfect product. So I don't know where that's coming from.
Treebore wrote:As for why they should have their fans provide feedback? Because it is feedback, they do hire actual editors, not just rely on us. We are extra sets of eyes. Again, Jim Ward's booklet of elemental magics was complete crap. COMPLETE crap. Who caught it, to the best of my knowledge? Me. Then Steve took a look at it and was like, "OMG!" and had Jason completely re edit it. If this did not happen, we very possibly would have bought a print product that was completely useless crap, and TLG would have had to eat the costs of replacing it with usable product.
I don't think this one is directed at me. If it is, I have no idea why, because having fans provide feedback is something with which I agree 100% and haven't stated otherwise.
Treebore wrote:Victorious. I know for a fact it is going to print with a lot less errors in it, assuming the proper file went to the printers, thanks to the feedback of several fans, including myself. Did it come out perfect? Probably not, but its closer than it would have been. Plus we already know the Trolls made a mistake on the second booklet, which I never saw, plus we just got 4 more PDF's, for the first time, yesterday, and I have yet to look through them, but is a very safe bet I will find typo's, poorly worded sentences, and maybe even complete rules errors. This will be despite their paid editors efforts.

I don't know about you, but I like helping make sure the Trolls get their products closer to perfection than they would without us.
I don't disagree with any sentiment there, nor did the post you quoted above.
~~~~~R.I.P~~~~~
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

I just thought I should perhaps say why I find the other-people-do-worse argument/excuse a poor one, so as to clear up any misconception that I feel perfection is a must.

If all we ever do is look to other products (or people, co-workers, siblings, etc.) and say, "Well, at least I'm better than them," or, "at least I'm not the worst," then I feel we've set the bar too low. Inevitably, comparisons happen. I get that. However, in my estimation a person or company should strive to be their best self. If the bar is set too low, by looking at bad, or the worst examples, I don't feel like a person or company can achieve what they are truly capable of.
~~~~~R.I.P~~~~~
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B/X, B4, X2 - You were D&D to me

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

Harlock wrote:As stated in the post you quoted and restated above, I do not find how poorly everyone else does something a very good excuse.
It's not an excuse, but a simple fact. The Trolls do the best they can with the resources available to them, but the impression I'm getting is that it isn't enough.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Traveller wrote:
Harlock wrote:As stated in the post you quoted and restated above, I do not find how poorly everyone else does something a very good excuse.
It's not an excuse, but a simple fact. The Trolls do the best they can with the resources available to them, but the impression I'm getting is that it isn't enough.
To your comment above (several posters), about not saying or writing or calling about mistakes after being given the chance to see the rough PDF. First, it is not my responsibility. Secondly Sir, I did in fact point out the missing table and I did in fact send several mistakes to the Trolls. All were ignored. Furthermore, we do not get copies to edit on every product. Only a choice few have been done that way and sadly those who did, like myself, were ignored completely. I even made a phone call so Steve and his response was "oh bat crap, I guess we missed it". And it was printed anyway. Well shucks I guess.

I do not expect perfection. For the level of $$ I have paid up front for product in multiple KS, I do expect more than what I have received.

Showing up to GenCon to see product on the shelf, that I backed in KS's that I have not yet received as backer, is a kick to the gut. That along with edits I found and reported that were ignored. You know better than anyone that I report edit mistakes and do a fine job finding them.

Yup.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

Traveller wrote:but the impression I'm getting is that it isn't enough.
Well, there's always room for improvement, right?
~~~~~R.I.P~~~~~
Tom Moldvay
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

Yeah, with TLG, I always know I'll get the product eventually. That's not a guarantee you'll have with plenty of other Kickstarters.

As far as editing goes, as I've said before, getting a zero-defect product isn't easy. If it's an otherwise great product, I might *tsk* internally, but I'm willing to forgive it.
Harlock wrote:There's pros and cons. I never worry about a TLG kickstarter as far as will it be delivered. However, a big question is always when it will be delivered.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Omote »

Kickstarter advice from some note-takers at the GenCon seminar on Kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/lesson ... at-gen-con
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Well, the Trolls royally screwed up with the print version of Victorious. Amateur editing mistakes. Mistakes I submitted myself for correction. It looks to me like they went to print with the very first PDF they released to us backers.

Very, very, very disappointing.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by moriarty777 »

Wow... There is a lot of venom in this thread.

Perfection is fleeting and at the end of the day, we're meant to have fun with this game are we not?

Is the material absolutely unusable? I would say no. It is not. Even if somethings don't work or there is a screw up here or there (question of hit dice for example... or a reference to something that no longer exists), it's surely easy to make a ruling and just move on.

Things have changed in the market and the only reason that Chaosium didn't fade away was because of Kickstarter and then subsequently get BAILED OUT and get their house in order! They are now enjoying GREAT success with their new edition and they have only NOW (after over three decades, gone to full color). They have made mistakes but the stars were right for them. Troll Lord Games has come far since 2000 and there has been and continue to be growing pains.

At the end of the day, we play because we enjoy the game, and I can only assume that they enjoy what they are doing as well.

M
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:Well, the Trolls royally screwed up with the print version of Victorious. Amateur editing mistakes. Mistakes I submitted myself for correction. It looks to me like they went to print with the very first PDF they released to us backers.

Very, very, very disappointing.
Oh... as an aside, I hear you Tree.

It's disappointing but it's not going to prevent me from enjoying and using the product and I'm sure others will, like me, be able to carry on. ;)

M
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

moriarty777 wrote:
Treebore wrote:Well, the Trolls royally screwed up with the print version of Victorious. Amateur editing mistakes. Mistakes I submitted myself for correction. It looks to me like they went to print with the very first PDF they released to us backers.

Very, very, very disappointing.
Oh... as an aside, I hear you Tree.

It's disappointing but it's not going to prevent me from enjoying and using the product and I'm sure others will, like me, be able to carry on. ;)

M
Yeah, I am mostly upset because I got suckered into "believing" the editing was going to be really good on this, so backed for the leatherette. Its not going to keep me from enjoying Victorious, its just going to keep me from believing the Trolls can ever get it right with the first printing.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Brad »

moriarty777 wrote:Wow... There is a lot of venom in this thread.

Perfection is fleeting and at the end of the day, we're meant to have fun with this game are we not?

Is the material absolutely unusable? I would say no. It is not. Even if somethings don't work or there is a screw up here or there (question of hit dice for example... or a reference to something that no longer exists), it's surely easy to make a ruling and just move on.

Things have changed in the market and the only reason that Chaosium didn't fade away was because of Kickstarter and then subsequently get BAILED OUT and get their house in order! They are now enjoying GREAT success with their new edition and they have only NOW (after over three decades, gone to full color). They have made mistakes but the stars were right for them. Troll Lord Games has come far since 2000 and there has been and continue to be growing pains.

At the end of the day, we play because we enjoy the game, and I can only assume that they enjoy what they are doing as well.

M
I think this post exemplifies why I am not going to buy any more TLG releases. I just got the revised Classic Monsters and Treasure, and noticed a bunch of errors that carried over from the previous edition. I also feel somewhat cheated as I thought "treasure" would be more than a few additional OGL items and a bunch of random "artifacts". If you are going to do a new layout, can you at least edit the text?

Too many heads in the sand...the editing by TLG has sucked from day one and has never gotten any better. "Perfection is fleeting" has nothing to do with "egregious errors easily fixed with a single pass with a spell-checker." Some of you guys are downright delusional...

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

Your statement that "[TLG editing] has sucked from day one and has never gotten any better" is patently untrue. One only needs to leaf through the six printings of the PHB to see that the editing has vastly improved since the game's inception. Personal attacks calling others delusional does not help make your point, but only irritates the hell out of the people both on these forums and working for TLG who are doing their damnedest to make these games better for everyone.

Everyone in this discussion wants to see TLG succeed, and sometimes these forums are the only place to point out TLG's missteps. Now, whether you decide to purchase any more TLG product is of course up to you. But do not come in here and call people delusional simply because they are willing to overlook the missteps TLG or its editors make. Such comments are unwelcome here.

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