Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

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Traveller
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Traveller »

@mmbutter: I see where you're coming from on that one, and I agree. It's also a lot simpler than the official alternative.

I vote to go with that wording.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by serleran »

Make it more awesome. Each level adds a side, 10'. Until at infinite level, it is a perfect sphere.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Fizz »

There is another matter to consider here- is the allowed volume shape allowed to be changed?

If the size of the spell is meant to be 40 feet on a side. Then it suggests that your illusion can never have any single dimension of greater than 40 feet. But if the spell means that your illusion can only be 40 cubic feet, then you could have an illusion longer than 40 feet in one dimension, so long as one or more dimensions are reduced.

So for example, with 40 cubic feet, you could have an illusion that is 1 inch thick, 1 inch wide, but 5760 feet long. The volume is still 40 cubic feet. Would you allow that?


-Fizz

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mmbutter
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by mmbutter »

Fizz wrote:There is another matter to consider here- is the allowed volume shape allowed to be changed?

If the size of the spell is meant to be 40 feet on a side. Then it suggests that your illusion can never have any single dimension of greater than 40 feet. But if the spell means that your illusion can only be 40 cubic feet, then you could have an illusion longer than 40 feet in one dimension, so long as one or more dimensions are reduced.

So for example, with 40 cubic feet, you could have an illusion that is 1 inch thick, 1 inch wide, but 5760 feet long. The volume is still 40 cubic feet. Would you allow that?
A cube 40' on a side would be 64,000 cubic feet.

As CK, I would only allow the illusion to be at most 40' per side (for the base version, obviously the description says it gets larger as the level of the caster increases).

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Fizz »

A cube 40' on a side would be 64,000 cubic feet.
I agree, but that wasn't my point. I was noting that even if you read it as 40 cubic feet total, regardless of shape, you could still have some illusions with some hefty dimensions by sacrificing one or both of the other dimensions.

So is the intent of the spell to limit the volume of the illusion itself, or is it intended to limit the size / shape of the volume in which the illusion appears? That is, must the illusion be constrained to 40' in the x-direction, 40' in the y-direction, and 40' in the z-direction? Or can it have any dimensions so long as the total volume is under a particular value?

I'm not saying i know- i'm just positing the question. :)

-Fizz

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Traveller »

The d20 SRD lists Minor Image as a Silent Image spell with sound generation capabilities. In the SRD, the area of effect of Silent Image is "Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level. From the looks of it, the Trolls went and simplified it to a 40-ft. cube but messed up in saying "+10 cubic feet per level" when it should say "+10 feet per level". Based upon the SRD's wording, the intent of the SRD spell was to be able to change the size of the area of effect. For example, you could have an AOE of 40' x 10' x 10' in a row, a 40' x 10' x 10' AOE that wraps around a corner, stack the cubes on top of each other to make an illusion of a tree for example, or anything in between.

By changing the AOE the Trolls made the spell less useful. However, that can be easily fixed.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Captain_K »

Its a CUBE, so it should stay. Use it or don't.. Its a "3D volume", not a volume you can fool with. 40' cube starting at 4th lvl, 50' cube at 5th, etc. Add the words noted AND an example stressing its a CUBE. Should close this.
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Traveller »

@Captain_K: foul mood? No reason to close the thread.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Captain_K »

Oh crap, I just re-read my post with a view that I'm in a foul mood.. damn folks, I'm sorry. I most definitely love this thread and this kind of topic. It always reminds me of how complex even the simplest things can be. I think as a team we're working toward a good solution to the problem. Each person is putting in their ideas and suggestions.

I was trying to stress "let's use the word CUBE" (not yell the word cube). Then the nice idea from mmbutter to stress 4th lvl 40' cube, 5th lvl 50' cube.. etc... my comment was INTENDED to mean "I think we got this one!"

Sorry folks. Anyone else able to make improvements to mmbutters latest find/clarification.. again, I think we have a nice fix to this errata.
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Bree_Yark »

Fizz wrote: I agree, but that wasn't my point. I was noting that even if you read it as 40 cubic feet total, regardless of shape, you could still have some illusions with some hefty dimensions by sacrificing one or both of the other dimensions.

-Fizz
Well if you look in the PHB you will see that illusionist magic isn't mere visual deception, it's actually the caster using magic to force his will into reality, so you'd have to make dimentionally appropriate magic in x,y and z for it to be real.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Bree_Yark wrote:
Fizz wrote: I agree, but that wasn't my point. I was noting that even if you read it as 40 cubic feet total, regardless of shape, you could still have some illusions with some hefty dimensions by sacrificing one or both of the other dimensions.

-Fizz
Well if you look in the PHB you will see that illusionist magic isn't mere visual deception, it's actually the caster using magic to force his will into reality, so you'd have to make dimentionally appropriate magic in x,y and z for it to be real.
Actually, that is merely the C&C version of the illusionist which is fine if you and your group are good with that opinion. However.

The original class was conceived as primarily deceptive magic with little to no impact on reality. Everything is in the mind of the target(s)/victims. Hence the spells designed for greater diversity and conditionally more powerful than wizard spells. The fact that illusions had no substance to them is the power balance between the two classes. Otherwise, there would be no point in playing a wizard since granting the illusionist physical effects and such coupled with the ability to mimic ANY wizard spell with the image spells would make the wizard the more restrictive class. This also made playing the illusionist something of a challenge since a person playing one had to be an out of the box thinker to do well.

And that is pretty much where the big divide in opinion comes from.
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Bree_Yark »

I talked with the Trolls and the dirt is that an errata would read 40 foot diameter sphere.

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Captain_K »

Do we need to discuss a sphere? sphere volume is controlled by cubit feet too.. I hope they stick with clearly noted radius or diameter of a sphere.

I always wonder, where does the bottom half of the spherical fire ball go? or do folks just assume its a half sphere when on the ground.. keep in mind, when you do the math, the half or so clipped by the ground does not double the effective radii. I'll have to do that math...
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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Bree_Yark »

Go0gleplex wrote: Otherwise, there would be no point in playing a wizard since granting the illusionist physical effects and such coupled with the ability to mimic ANY wizard spell with the image spells would make the wizard the more restrictive class.
Not at all! Illusionists are restricted in many ways even if they alter reality.

Let's take for example magic missile. An Illusionist can duplicate the physical image of a magic missile, but what physical properties are they duplicating that allows an automatic hit.

Fireball and lightning bolt are easily duplicated as simple physical effects, but how does an illusionist duplicate water breathing, reading thoughts or any other non visible effects?

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Re: Forty foot cube or fourty cubic feet big difference.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Bree_Yark wrote:
Go0gleplex wrote: Otherwise, there would be no point in playing a wizard since granting the illusionist physical effects and such coupled with the ability to mimic ANY wizard spell with the image spells would make the wizard the more restrictive class.
Not at all! Illusionists are restricted in many ways even if they alter reality.

Let's take for example magic missile. An Illusionist can duplicate the physical image of a magic missile, but what physical properties are they duplicating that allows an automatic hit.

Fireball and lightning bolt are easily duplicated as simple physical effects, but how does an illusionist duplicate water breathing, reading thoughts or any other non visible effects?
Magic Missiles would hit because the target would believe they would be hit putting aside the fact that the Illusionist themselves only need to imagine that the stupid things would hit. It is a magic imbued figment of their imagination after all.

As to duplicating water breathing, reading thoughts, and such...why...the same way they duplicate healing someone. (snark) It gets a bit more complex with those. Water breathing...wouldn't. The person enchanted would drown simply believing they were breathing water without a problem if under the influence of a major image spell...which would be intentional...now if using an alter reality spell, it wouldn't be any issue what-so-ever. Reading minds...they would babble what they were thinking out loud in the belief they were merely thinking silently while under the influence of a suggestion or image spell...seriously. I've played illusionists many times for over three decades. The ONLY limit is the player's imagination and what they can rationalize to the GM when it comes to most of their image spells and a few others. Hell, we had one illusionist played by a military law officer wipe out a freakin' army of goblins by himself with one illusion spell and the paladin making a spectacle of himself. The illusionist is the likely the most under estimated class power-wise in the entire history of the game, hands down. Simply because too many don't understand it completely or how to exploit its potential, which is fairly limitless.
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