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C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:48 pm
by capmarvel
Read the 5e PHB the other day (no, not all of it - not sure I've read 100% of any game I wasn't editing).

Liked much of it....but perhaps being old and remembering when RPG"s were RPG"s and not "video games on paper", much of it went against my grain.

Obviously one case for 5e is that it's a million times or so easier to find a game going for it....but, I can't shake the feeling that to morph 5e to what I like would be much harder than to add anything I think might be "missing" from C&C.

To those that have played both....curious if the games really play that much differently? How much does it GM differently? I'd be a player so I realize much of this will depend on the respective GM's.

(I realize as a "mere player" I get what I get so in some sense it doesn't matter what rules I don't like ...but obviously a good GM will take input from us on what to include and what not to include)

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:06 pm
by jdizzy001
There are a few similarities between cnc and 5e. But 5e has a lot more fiddly bits that cnc. From my experience, as a ck,dm, gm or whatever, it is far easier to add stuff to cnc. That being said, I love some of 5e's streamlining. The Proficency bonus was a much needed modification. (One which I would like to see adopted by cnc, or a modified version of such) and the advantage/disadvantage mechanic beats the +x bonus by a mile! So much so, I've adopted it into cnc. At the end of the day, however, I know Gary Gygax indicated once that cnc is what dnd was supposed to be. And I keep that in mind when I try to modify my games too much.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:25 pm
by Treebore
I played it for a few months after it first came out, so its been a long while, and I don't recall the specifics. So I do like 5E FAR more than I liked 3E, and light years more than I liked 4E. That said, I do recall thinking many times how I much preferred the freedom of the SIEGE engine. Which is why I have returned to C&C and remained there since.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:55 pm
by capmarvel
Of course as a player, I often wonder why I "research games to see which one I like better" - since I'm at the mercy of what game some GM I can find is running.

Well that's of course not strictly true - I like reading RPG's just to read RPG's. The whole RPG field is like a puzzle and I keep trying to find "missing pieces".

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:42 am
by jdizzy001
Of all the critiques/reviews I have read regarding CnC and DnD, the one theme I heard repeated over and over again (to include repeating it once or twice myself) is the "freedom" in CnC and the absence of freedom in DnD. Mind you, this is coming from a man who played 3E, 4E, and beta tested 5E. I have logged hundreds of hours playing RPGs to include DnD and what I agree with (as stated by Tree) is that CnC comes with a much greater degree of freedom as it is built into the SIEGE engine. A lot of D20 products suffer from mechanic bloat. If you want to do something, there is a special mechanic for it. With certain crowds this is fine. Speaking from personal experience, utilizing the SIEGE engine beats out any cool factor afforded from mechanic bloat.

That being said, when I play DnD then switch to CnC I don't notice the "freedom," it is after I return to DnD after playing CnC that I notice how much extra fiddly bits exist in DnD. I specifically remember a time when I was playing a fighter in DnD. The town I was in was under attack by Dragon-spawn and I attempted to perform some acrobatic type assault. The game stopped as we had to look up the rules on how to, and if I could perform such a feat (for the record, we were not novice gamers. My crew and I had a combined knowledge and experience of DnD spanning over 60 years!). As we attempted to figure out if I could perform such a feat, I recall thinking, "This is so much easier in CnC." That was the moment I realized CnC carries a greater degree of freedom.

Don't take this the wrong way, I really like DnD, and I really like CnC, they are both good games, I just appreciate CnC's unified mechanic more than DnD's fiddly bits.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:33 am
by finarvyn
What I like best about 5E is that I can play it in the store for Adventurer's League and earn XP for characters who could then be played at another store. I have a "love it, hate it" relationship with 5E because I get to play it with some great people, but then I feel somewhat restricted. (Particularly as a DM where I have to stay with the published adventures.) C&C is a lot more freeing to me. When I run it I can do what I like and the rules are a lot simpler.

There are a few aspects of 5E that I like a lot, however. I like the way cantrips give the Wizard more to do. I used to hate Feats but now I kind of like them. I like the "bounded" nature of the numbers where the bonuses aren't as absurd as they were in 3E/4E. I like how in Adventurer's League you point-buy stats and don't roll for HP. Any and all of these can be mashed with my C&C game (and are, sometimes).

Both are fine games, IMO.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:46 am
by jdizzy001
The "bounded" numbers are amazing! As I insinuated before, I would love to see CnC adopt something similar. However, I also greatly appreciate that they have not. The fact that CnC has remained mechanically the same for so long is a major draw for me.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:41 pm
by capmarvel
Can you explain the "bounded" to a non-guru RPGer like myself? :)

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:00 am
by Fizz
capmarvel wrote:Can you explain the "bounded" to a non-guru RPGer like myself? :)
Hi Cap-

5E D&D took a significant turn in their standard design philosophy.

In past editions, characters gained bonuses (either for combat, or skills, or anything else) at every level, and there was technically no limit to how high the bonuses to go. For instance, a fighter at 1st level was +1 to attack, and at 20th level he was +20. The bonuses are "unbounded".

In 5E, they changed this. So at 1st level characters all start with a proficiency bonus of +2. That is- if you know how to do it, you get +2. And it grows much more slowly. By 20th level, the bonus is only +6. So instead of raw bonuses every level, characters of high levels are distinguished by more special abilities and hit points. IE, the bonuses are "bounded".

I have not been playing 5E, so my description may not be complete, but i think i got the fundamental difference there.

-Fizz

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:49 pm
by Mark Hall
One aspect of 5e I like, and wish I had included in the cnc game I am running, is "advantage". I could easily see that replacing the differing TNs for prime v. Non-prime checks, and doing so relatively smoothly.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:15 pm
by jdizzy001
Add it in. I use advantage all the time. It was the easiest mechanic to add. Instead of awarding a generic plus x to roll, give them dis/advantage

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:58 pm
by Jyrdan Fairblade
I enjoy both quite a bit. I will say that in play C&C has far fewer pauses to look up a rule or to adjudicate the interaction of two abilities.

Advantage is a wonderful mechanic, and I use it to incentivize what I want to see from my players. I make it very clear that good role-playing and getting into character will always net a person advantage. The funny thing is, I often see players hang onto it until the end of the game, when they lose it, without ever using it. I’ve taken to telling them “it’s 8pm. We finish at 8:30pm, so if you’re going to use advantage, now’s your time.”

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:05 am
by spudeus
The 'use it or lose it' thing is what a lot of folks don't like about 5e's advantage; I'm wondering if it can be combined successfully with the Fate Point system in the CKG.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:05 pm
by mmbutter
Am I missing something? In 5E, "advantage" or "disadvantage" are not something you hang onto - it's situational. The GM determines that your attack roll (for whatever reason) has "advantage", and on your roll you roll 2 d20s instead of 1, and take the best roll (instead of the GM saying "give yourself a +2" or whatever). They're not like Savage World's "bennies" that you save up and use later...

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:59 pm
by Fizz
mmbutter wrote:Am I missing something? In 5E, "advantage" or "disadvantage" are not something you hang onto - it's situational. The GM determines that your attack roll (for whatever reason) has "advantage", and on your roll you roll 2 d20s instead of 1, and take the best roll (instead of the GM saying "give yourself a +2" or whatever). They're not like Savage World's "bennies" that you save up and use later...
That was my understanding too. This notion that you can use one whenever you want (or lose it) is totally new to me.

-Fizz

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:59 pm
by Jyrdan Fairblade
There are technically two mechanics at work here. Advantage and Disadvantage are situational, when something might be easier or more difficult than usual. If you get poisoned by the stench of ghast, you have disadvantage on your attack rolls. If you’re trying to figure out what the ancient runes on the wall say, and a fellow PC comes over to help you out, you would have advantage on that check.

Inspiration is something the DM uses to reward a player for something. I use tokens to track it. I hand a player an inspiration token when they do something I like (good role-playing, teamwork, that sort of thing). They can in-turn redeem that token at any d20 roll to get advantage. You may only have one inspiration point or token at a time, and it goes away at the end of the adventure.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:34 pm
by Fizz
Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Inspiration is something the DM uses to reward a player for something.
I don't recall that from the 5e PH (though i have not read it exhaustively). Is this your own house rule, or something from the 5e DMG, or other?

-Fizz

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:22 pm
by Jyrdan Fairblade
It's in both the PHB and DMG. Though the specific wording mentions role-playing a character's Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws, but it is not limited to such.
Fizz wrote:
Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Inspiration is something the DM uses to reward a player for something.
I don't recall that from the 5e PH (though i have not read it exhaustively). Is this your own house rule, or something from the 5e DMG, or other?

-Fizz

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:48 pm
by GameOgre
After years of playing 5E the very things I liked about it at the start are what I hate now.

Advantage/disadvantage is simply and easy and stupid as hell. Adv/dis is equal to a +5/-5 mod so EVERY single modifier is +5/-5. They don't stack so its just as easy to hit a guy with a sword in the dark standing on the ground as it is underwater or falling off a cliff in a sandstorm while poisoned.

The Numbers are boned so starting at mid level everyone hits everyone all the time. AC is kept low and while the to hit is low compared to other games its still stupid easy to hit everyone. At 20th level most everything will hit a AC tank on a 9+......BAH! Also he will hit almost everything on a 4+(monsters and npc's ac is kept fairly low)

They wanted to make casters more balanced so they gave iconic monsters legendary points and lair actions ect that auto save verse spells. Also casters get much much fewer spells so that 6th level spell you get once per day that you saved for the big bad? he didn't even have to roll on it.auto saved

Even stuff like Charm Person and Monster you get a save every single round and saves are pretty easy to make so mostly they last only a round or two.

Class balance in general is out the window and I know as old school gamers we are not supposed to care but come on.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:20 pm
by Treebore
Yeah, I only played in a weekly game for about 5 months, but I saw and experienced a lot of things that kept me preferring C&C. Especially my C&C, with my House Rules. So naturally I have C&C being about as perfect of an RPG as I could want, so....

Still several good ideas I wouldn't be adverse to porting over to C&C. Such as the back ground material, adapting the various class paths, etc...

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:05 am
by mmbutter
GameOgre wrote:Advantage/disadvantage is simply and easy and stupid as hell. Adv/dis is equal to a +5/-5 mod so EVERY single modifier is +5/-5. They don't stack so its just as easy to hit a guy with a sword in the dark standing on the ground as it is underwater or falling off a cliff in a sandstorm while poisoned.
I don't know where you're getting this from...

The difference between two die rolls is rarely going to be exactly 5 (only 5% of the time will it be that value).

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:21 am
by Fizz
mmbutter wrote:
GameOgre wrote:Advantage/disadvantage is simply and easy and stupid as hell. Adv/dis is equal to a +5/-5 mod so EVERY single modifier is +5/-5. They don't stack so its just as easy to hit a guy with a sword in the dark standing on the ground as it is underwater or falling off a cliff in a sandstorm while poisoned.
I don't know where you're getting this from...
The difference between two die rolls is rarely going to be exactly 5 (only 5% of the time will it be that value).
Two die rolls differing by exactly 5. Interesting problem. I get odds of 7.5%. But more to the point, i am not sure what GameOgre is saying either.

Statistically, there is a 5% chance for any given number on a d20 to come up. Now, with advantage, the odds of higher numbers go up. There is only a 0.25% chance of a result of 1 (ie, double 1's). The odds of getting each successive value goes up by 0.5%. For instance, the odds of a 2 is 0.75%, a 3 is 1.25%, etc. The odds of a 20 is then 9.75%, nearly double the single die case.

Adding all those up, with a single die, there is a 50% chance you will get at least an 11. With advantage, there is a 51% chance of getting at least a 15.

So perhaps that is what GameOgre means when he says +5. But really, it's more like a +4. I don't agree with him that it's the equivalent though. d20+4 is not the same as best of 2d20. Both happen to have a 50% split at a roll of 15. But advantage never lets you have a result above 20, and might give a result of less than 5.

Some other fun statistics:
d20 w advantage: average: 13.82, standard deviation: 4.71
single d20: average: 10.50, standard deviation: 5.77
d20+4: average: 14.50, standard deviation: 5.77


-Fizz

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:24 am
by spudeus
I think ogre is most upset with the lack of finesse/segmentation of the modifiers. In 5e, you basically have advantage (on average, c. +4.5 to the roll), disadvantage (-4.5) or both/neither (0). There is no official rule for say, 'slight advantage' or 'heavy disadvantage'. Is the time saved not looking up modifiers adequate recompense for this inflexibility? I think it might be for new players, but it's also a question of personal taste.

PS: what's a 'skobbit'? A skanky hobbit?

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:19 am
by Kayolan
spudeus wrote:PS: what's a 'skobbit'? A skanky hobbit?
Page 9:
https://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/vol5iss5.pdf

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:46 am
by Melkor
Having played quite a bit of 5E during the playtest, several months after it was released, and then a follow up campaign about a year later, the one thing that stood out to me about 5E was the assumed "power level."

If you use by the book healing (rather than some of the options in the DMG that slow it down), characters full heal overnight. If you compare that to C&Cs recovery of 1HP per day(while resting, well fed, warm, etc) for the first 14 days, you can see quite a difference in style.

Spellcasting classes get unlimited cantrips - Some of these are damage dealing, but don't really break the game other than changing the idea of a Wizard casting his spells, and then having to rely on luck, smarts, and his dagger or staff to survive those low levels until he really "earns" the more powerful spells at higher levels. Some of these "always on" cantrips also provide a bit of an easy button that takes away from the DM being able to use some of the classic challenges I remember from my days playing AD&D and AD&D 2E (like the Light cantrip).

If you use multiclassing or Feats, you can have some very powerful characters very early on. Some of the feats also do what I mentioned above for cantrips - take away some of the options of a DM to challenge players. I believe its the Alert feat, but it basically says that if a character is awake, that character can never be surprised. Granted, that is specific to that character, and not necessarily the entire party, but it still can really make a DMs job difficult if they were looking to spring a specific challenge on the players.

Another downside to our group was the idea of an "Adventuring day" that consisted of X number of encounters measured against an action economy of player abilities. I can't remember specifics, but I believe by the numbers presented, following these guidelines, a character could go from first level to twentieth level in months.

While mechanically, the system had a lot going for it, overall, the general "feel" of the game was off for my group. The power level seemed too dialed up, and we tried coming up with house rules to fix these issues or make 5E more in the style of what we wanted, but it ended up always feeling like these fixes went against the core design choices that make 5E what it is. At the end of the day, we decided it just was never going to be what we were looking for.

Having been involved with the C&C playtest, and having played it for quite a while (yet not in a couple of years), I always find myself coming back to it as a system that fits my idea of the classic fantasy RPG I grew up playing - only improved.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:24 am
by jdizzy001
Mel hit the nail on the head. CnC captures that old school gaming feel. When I bust out CnC I feel like I'm playing in Ralph Bakshi's animated Lord of the Rings. I feel like Madmartigan from Willow. It has such a nostalgic feel and pays homage to our roots but in a contemporary math kind of way. I don't miss THAC0, heck I barely understand THAC0!

That being said, I never bought 5e (I played the beta) because I have CnC. I have also considered selling my 4e books (I'm one of the few who really liked 4e) because I have CnC. I think 5e got some things right, mainly steering away from 3e's number bloat, but it is hard to improve on something that CnC already got right years before.

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:56 pm
by Captain_K
Domesday Issue VIII and soon IX will reprint the conversion tips from 5e to CnC..

Re: C&C and 5e

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:44 am
by Captain_K
So who has conversion rules or guidelines FROM 5e to CnC?