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level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:45 pm
by capmarvel
Adventurer's Backpack is still not out...

Which led me to wonder why it seems like only Robert Schwalb of Shadow of the Demon Lord fame is the only creator I know that can put out product on a steady pace?

In fact SotDL and Green Ronin's Fantasy Age both came out in 2015.

Schwalb just released the 2nd SotDL Companion book a few weeks ago....and Green Ronin still hasn't come out with their first - it's been delayed 15 times and "may" come out in 2018.

I know the Troll Lords probably don't do this full time...it's a side job of a side hobby....but I'm confused why more RPG companies don't function more like actual companies and hit deadlines etc.

Schwalb is basically a one-man shop (though paying for art etc) - yet he puts out new material all the time. I don't get why others can't do it.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:47 pm
by alcyone
I have two giant crates of C&C stuff I keep stumbling over that tell me if anything they work too fast.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:59 pm
by capmarvel
I think perhaps, I just really, really want to see the Backpack. :)

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:03 pm
by alcyone
Someone else who amazes me with their quality and speed is Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine, also a one-man show.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:44 pm
by capmarvel
Yeah - Crawford is good, but Schwalb puts even him to shame. Crawford doesn't put out much in a given year...Schwalb cranks out stuff monthly it seems.

I do like that Crawford doesn't start his Kickstarters until he's basically done - unlike many who don't seem to even start until after the KS is done, if then even.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:03 pm
by capmarvel
Guy at Gamehole Con just reported they said they "hope to get Backpack out by end of the year." Kickstarter said "June". Maybe they meant "June" of 2018.

Schwalb is laughing at everyone else... :)

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:31 pm
by Omote
Wouldn't count on it. Is the book even finished? Has the physical backpacks been ordered? I have a feeling we have a while on this one.

I still backed TLGs Tome of the Unclean because of how much I like their material on it so far, but not a single person in my gaming group, or in fact anybody I know personally, have backed Tome of the Unclean because of how long TLGs KSs have taken. The Adventurer's Backpack seems to have broke a few people. Damn.

~O

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:59 pm
by Go0gleplex
I figure I can always get it later when it actually comes out unless the KS the Trolls are promoting is something I really really want. Then I simply approach it the same way I do projects at work. Deadlines Amuse Me. It gets done when it gets done. Sure it would be nice when promised but at least I know I will get it eventually. The Trolls are good on that. :)

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:59 pm
by mmbutter
When at work I'm asked to estimate when I can get a project done (to set deadlines) I use the Scotty Factor.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:32 pm
by Treebore
Most of Schwalb's work is a few pages at a time. I am pretty sure the Companion books are compilations of these short pieces. So basically he is releasing bits and pieces of what will become compilations. The Trolls could do the same, but I simply can't imagine their working at such a pace. I think a more fair comparison would be to compare total page count of original work. Pretty sure the Trolls are more competitive in that regard.

My problem is how I like and buy too darn many RPG's. I buy a good bit of what Schwalb produces, Mongoose Produces, Cubicle 7 Produces, Pinnacle Produces, Frog God produces, some of what Paizo produces, and more I am sure I am not thinking of right now, all in addition to what the Trolls put out. So personally, I'd like it if they all slowed down.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:39 pm
by Lord Dynel
capmarvel wrote:Adventurer's Backpack is still not out...I know the Troll Lords probably don't do this full time...it's a side job of a side hobby....but I'm confused why more RPG companies don't function more like actual companies and hit deadlines etc.
I don't mind it taking a while. I understand. And no, it's probably not a full-time job for many/most of the Trolls. My major beef with the Trolls production philosophy was two-fold.

1) It seemed - and admittedly I could only see one side of it - that TLG had a good thing going. Outside of the CKG, most products got developed and released, and we fans bought it. I don't think there was a major pressure to get the CKG out, other than a lot of long time fans who wanted to see it, so I kind of leave it out of the conversation. Sure, the releases were slow but there wasn't the KS expectations of release like there is now (my #2) and I don't see a substantial speediness in their schedule now in the KS era.

2) It's probably my lack of understanding but I figured more money upfront would translate into a bit quicker release. Instead of waiting to sell through X amount of product to pay for the new printing of the PHB, the Trolls launch a Kickstarter instead. Early ones, if memory serves, were pretty good and punctual, but they've slowed down tremendously since then. The last two projects I backed (Darkenfold and Adventurer's Backpack) have yet to arrive. I got to talking to one fellow through G+ who said that he just takes the "estimated delivery" date and adds 6-12 months to it and that's when he hopes for the product.
Omote wrote:The Adventurer's Backpack seems to have broke a few people. Damn.
That is sad. It almost broke me. It was frustrating to see a new Kickstarter launch and previous one not been fulfilled yet. I know it probably sounds like I'm bashing the Trolls, but I assure you that's not my intention. I think a lot of the frustration I had - and probably others have - is because we all want this awesome stuff and it's not in our hands yet. I know it was in my case. But I got over it. The Troll make good stuff and they make good on their promises. So I have to wait. Is it that big a deal to get upset or frustrated about? Really? There's too much other crap going on in the world to be upset that it's taking a few months longer than anticipated to get my latest C&C goodie. Patience is a virtue. I'm in for the Tome of the Unclean, and I know it'll be a great product though I expect it taking longer than anticipated. And i'm okay with that. ;)

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:32 pm
by Treebore
Lord Dynel wrote: I got to talking to one fellow through G+ who said that he just takes the "estimated delivery" date and adds 6-12 months to it and that's when he hopes for the product.
Good chance that fellow was me.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:54 am
by Persimmon
My silver lining is that I was torn between doing an infernally themed campaign in my home brew world or messing around with C&C in Middle Earth using the AiME stuff. So now I'll do the latter and wait for Tome of the Unclean, which I assume is at least a year away.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:48 am
by JohnD
Omote wrote:Wouldn't count on it. Is the book even finished? Has the physical backpacks been ordered? I have a feeling we have a while on this one.

I still backed TLGs Tome of the Unclean because of how much I like their material on it so far, but not a single person in my gaming group, or in fact anybody I know personally, have backed Tome of the Unclean because of how long TLGs KSs have taken. The Adventurer's Backpack seems to have broke a few people. Damn.

~O
My experience with the Gaxmoor KS soured me on the whole process.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:25 pm
by Treebore
At least the Trolls deliver. I can name more than a few KS' that have failed to ever deliver. Thankfully I was only part of one of them. I know the Trolls are slow. I know they take a long time to do anything they decide to do. They have ALWAYS been that way. The bottom line is, though, that they have always delivered. So when they do projects, I back them, because at least I know I will eventually get product for my money.

Like was said above, just add 6 months to one year to nay estimate they give, and you will likely get it in that time frame. Some times you get it within the time frame they said, such as the Bergholt KS. Then you get to be shocked.-

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:18 pm
by alcyone
Just to pass the time from when the kickstarter ends to delivery, open your wordprocessor and try to write the same book while you wait.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:00 am
by Rhuvein
I know the Gaxmoor Kick got behind schedule a bit, but the Trolls delivered a masterful project that is one of best ever coming from them. Coordinating many of the D&D industry legends to get this project done was no easy task. In the end, Ernie jr, Luke, Jim Ward and Steve's adventures, maps, artwork and the whole enchilada is one of the best C&C adventure/settings that I own.

Kudos and well done to the Trolls!

:D

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:20 pm
by Revturkey
I bought the Gaxmoor pdf this week and it looks really good from the short time I have had to look at it. I think delays are unfortunate but it can't be easy juggling all the apples of a game company that has a weight of many years product and expectation behind it.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:59 pm
by serleran
I could produce a lot of material if I felt it would be accepted. Or really worth the time it takes.

I do not. Therefore, I do not.

In my experience with the Trolls, they do give deadlines. They are not always set in stone. Having a limited studio of artists also restricts output speed. I don't know this "Schwalb" person to know if he uses the same 3-4 artists on every product, or even if there is artwork.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:43 pm
by spudeus
I'm a newbie, not a veteran TLG supporter, but my one KS experience was the 7th printing of the PHB - arrived early, iirc. I suppose that doesn't count as there was no new content.

But further afield, my experience with other rpg company kickstarters - most of them are at least 3-6 months behind the promised schedule. To me, TLG doesn't seem egregiously bad, more like middle of the pack.

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 am
by capmarvel
Well one might ask "If you're always 6 months late, why not pad your estimated delivery date by 6 months?" But, what do I know? :)

Or do like Kevin Crawford - don't even start your Kickstarter until you're 98%+ done.

In any case, as I said...just "anxious" to see the Backpack and had expected near June as the Kickstarter said "June".

Re: level of C&C output

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:38 am
by Captain_K
I have a hard time finding time to play. I love the game because the core of what I need is done. I don't need more stuff. So the pace of new stuff from TLG is fine for me. Heck, I'm buying stuff just to support. I'll never use most of the codex - too much detail. That said, Anyone complaining not enough is coming out, get out your pencil and write up your work and supply it to Domesday via Morty!