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Saving Throws 
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Mist Elf

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:23 am
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Post Saving Throws
Hi all, I am returning to C&C after a few years playing other games. I've skooted about and read some bits and pieces on the internet about modifying the Saving Throws...to things like using Spell Level instead of Caster Level..etc

I was wondering what people's experiences were of doing this type of 'fix'...whether I need to bother or if the general consensus is that things are actually fine and dandy as written as long as I don't mind a more dangerous game (I don't)? I'm not trying to emulate any particular edition as such or use any old modules, so conversion is not an issue.

Do most of you find the rules as they are just fine?

Thanks for any input in advance :)


Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:31 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Saving Throws
For the most part yes. I use the rules as written. Only parts I don't are the EC, Undead Drain, and Illusionist healing spells...beyond my own spell, race, and class additions. The saves I have never had an issue with.

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Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:55 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Saving Throws
This stuff is all extremely arbitrary. If you've played enough OSR and versions of D&D, you start to realize almost everything works. You notice the differences more if you are running say, the same module in different systems, but within a particular game these things can be subtle, especially at low levels. There's no real world comparison; how effective are your fireball spells on orcs in real life at 6th level? You can just about make these probabilities up and it still mostly works.

So, change anything you want, reserve the right to change it back.

To answer the question though, I play C&C as by the book as I can. There are so many other games that if I want C&C to run more like one of those, I would rather play those games. Besides that, I have no particular ideal in my mind how the mechanics ought to work better, so as long as they are mostly self-consistent and the players understand them I am happy. I'd say mostly they are just fine.

I'd also say if you are going to house rule, look at Treebore's and Rigon's rules. Mostly they address real shortcomings in the system and are a good start.

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Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:26 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Saving Throws
I love C&C's save system most of all. One of the things that have always annoyed the crap out of me was saving on anything but a one that occurs in every single version of D&D. I like a high level game staying dangerous when your fighting equally high level opponents, and higher level opponents being scary because you know they are actually stronger than yo0uo, because you are less likely to save versus anything they throw at you.

So if you want a game where they become nearly invulnerable, do it the old way. If you want a game to stay threatening regardless of level, do it the C&C way.

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Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:03 pm
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Mist Elf

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:23 am
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Great, thanks for the input peeps. Think I'll just keep things as they are in the rulebook. I'm not trying to emulate any specific D&D edition and it sounds like it works fine and the issues I've seen around are more about personal tastes of difficulty etc..I'm okay with the game still making saves hard at higher level. Just as long as the system isn't broken and from what you're telling me it works fine so that's alright.

Little things keep cropping up like...how much action to stand from prone etc...I figured 1/2 move would work.

I'm not sure about the Illusionist healing...think that's a touch goofy...although I have often considered getting rid of Clerics and just rolling healing spells into the Magic User/Wizard lists...make religion less of a thing ....and I think the Bard on d10 hit dice is a touch high...being same as the Fighter.

Looking forward to running some C&C...going to be a wait as I am doing some Victorian horror nonsense first but can't wait to play some more fantasy with this system, it's good, I like it.

Thanks again.


Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:08 am
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Maukling
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Go0gleplex wrote:
...I don't use...Illusionist healing spells...

Revturkey wrote:
I'm not sure about the Illusionist healing...think that's a touch goofy...


I'm working on something for those that don't like illusionist healing, which is my #1 problem with it C&C. Not anything super spectacular, just some decent alternate spells. I've had them on a list for a while and was waiting for a person to play an illusionist so I could get motivated to write them up, but I've gone ahead and started.

As far as house rules go, there are many to check out. Lots of people have rules for this and that because it's something they don't like about the system. My advice would be to play a few sessions with the rules as they are, then determine what you don't like. What you find tolerable, others might not have and made a house rule for it. There's no need for you to house rule something you're okay with. But I'd suggest playing without house rules at first. Then, if something comes up you want to change, come up with your own. But that's my two cents.

Treebore wrote:
I love C&C's save system most of all. One of the things that have always annoyed the crap out of me was saving on anything but a one that occurs in every single version of D&D. I like a high level game staying dangerous when your fighting equally high level opponents, and higher level opponents being scary because you know they are actually stronger than yo0uo, because you are less likely to save versus anything they throw at you.


Agreed.

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Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:17 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Saving Throws
I don't allow Illusionist healing at all, which has been easy to implement since my players down't even like playing Illusionists. I used ot have a couple that do like playing, but they haven't gamed with us in quit a while.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:21 am
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Clang lives!
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Post Re: Saving Throws
For saves, I go by the book. I like the game deadly.

And illusionists healing is not a problem.

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Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:11 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Saving Throws
I run saves BTB. And I love illusionist healing. I get why people don't like it and have no criticism of them, but for me it makes sense that the placebo effect coupled with magic can get the body to heal itself. It's magic!. Granted, I don't believe the Trolls use exactly the same explanation as I do.

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Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:55 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Saving Throws
.


Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:56 pm
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Mist Elf

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:23 am
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Thanks all, most helpful :)


Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:51 am
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Lore Drake

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Most of the games i have run haven't been too high level, typically less than 7th. But i've never found an issue with saving throws. It makes a certain sense that a 20th level character has the same save chance against a 20th level monster as a 1st level character against a 1st level monster.

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Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:31 pm
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Ungern
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Post Re: Saving Throws
If BTB is too intense you can always modify the save by taking only 2/3 or 3/4 of the attacker's hit dice to add to the save difficulty. This still makes saves harder than 1E but allows higher level PC's to have a better chance to save than BTB


Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:59 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Re: Saving Throws.

Does anyone make all the DCs for spells start at 18 and characters who are prime in the save get a +6 when making the saves?

That way the 7th Wizard when casting a spell has a DC of 25. And each player must beat that score.


Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:03 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Saving Throws
T1Hound wrote:
Re: Saving Throws.

Does anyone make all the DCs for spells start at 18 and characters who are prime in the save get a +6 when making the saves?

That way the 7th Wizard when casting a spell has a DC of 25. And each player must beat that score.


Setting the challenge base to 18 and just having primes get a +6 is common, equivalent, and probably a better idea. I still do it the BtB way and players eventually just shout "I got a CL of 6, am I still alive?"

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:07 am
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Battle Stag
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Likewise I have taught my players how to do the math on saves if they didn't figure it out themselves, so I just ask how much they beat the CL by.

~O

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:00 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Treebore wrote:
I love C&C's save system most of all. One of the things that have always annoyed the crap out of me was saving on anything but a one that occurs in every single version of D&D. I like a high level game staying dangerous when your fighting equally high level opponents, and higher level opponents being scary because you know they are actually stronger than yo0uo, because you are less likely to save versus anything they throw at you.

So if you want a game where they become nearly invulnerable, do it the old way. If you want a game to stay threatening regardless of level, do it the C&C way.


I am (well was back in the day) the other side of the coin than Tree in that I preferred running lower level games. However, with that I love how C&C keeps a spell caster dangerous with even minor differences in level.

A 3rd or 4the level fighter (even a group of rd level characters) should take pause when squaring up against a 6th or 7th level spell slinger ... 2 or 3 difference against a save doesn't should like much, but how many times have a miss or failed save at a critical time been decided by 1 or 2 points

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:08 pm
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Post Re: Saving Throws
Lurker wrote:
Treebore wrote:
I love C&C's save system most of all. One of the things that have always annoyed the crap out of me was saving on anything but a one that occurs in every single version of D&D. I like a high level game staying dangerous when your fighting equally high level opponents, and higher level opponents being scary because you know they are actually stronger than yo0uo, because you are less likely to save versus anything they throw at you.

So if you want a game where they become nearly invulnerable, do it the old way. If you want a game to stay threatening regardless of level, do it the C&C way.


I am (well was back in the day) the other side of the coin than Tree in that I preferred running lower level games. However, with that I love how C&C keeps a spell caster dangerous with even minor differences in level.

A 3rd or 4the level fighter (even a group of rd level characters) should take pause when squaring up against a 6th or 7th level spell slinger ... 2 or 3 difference against a save doesn't should like much, but how many times have a miss or failed save at a critical time been decided by 1 or 2 points

That's one reason I love C&C. Spellcasters stay deadly even into higher levels.

R-

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Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:01 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Saving Throws
I agree. I love how the level of the caster increases the DC. Likewise, I like how a lower level caster isn't likely to impact a higher level character.

The biggest part to me is being "Prime". I can have a paladin that is Prime in Dex, Wisdom, etc. A house rule for 5E was similar to being equiv of prime in 1 ability for your class (e.g., cleric only picking Wisdom and not having to go Charisma as well). And C&C (maybe a bit of 5e) it totally works. I'm a cleric of Kord, god of strength, I am prime in Wisdom and Strength!


Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:40 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Saving Throws
This is the most common negative comment about C&C, in that some feel saves never increase, assuming equal-level parties on both sides. Add to it that many require saves when, perhaps, they should not and it's easy to see how the SIEGE Engine can be seen as having weak points.

I agree to a point. The SIEGE Engine is not intended to work for everything. I do not use it, for example, for "everyman" tasks.

I once posted a modification to make C&C have saves more like AD&D... it was not welcomed. Maybe one day I'll reuse it.


Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:38 pm
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Ungern
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Post Re: Saving Throws
It actually makes sense that the saves scale by level. In my game we use 10 & 15 rather than 12 & 18 for primes versus not primes, but keep the spell-caster level as the challenge class. I like the lethality that comes with this approach. And my favorite games are the high level (12 & up) ones, though our current group is still pretty low level. So we'll see how things progress as those characters get to higher levels and face tougher foes. Right now, at the low levels, people kind of expect that someone could die at any time and we keep a stable of backup characters, the rationale being that they all belong to chapters of an adventuring company that operates all over my home brew world. So if someone dies, the survivors just go to the local chapter house and recruit fresh meat.


Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:53 am
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